Star Wars Saga (OT/PT/ST) Discussion Thread

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Marvel (for all the silly stuff they put out) had still imagined it different, and made Kenobi a Jedi Knight badass (well expect for the white boots) - https://www.collectorfreaks.com/thr...iscussion-thread.245332/page-71#post-11036144
George had said in the past that Lukes ROTJ outfit was a Jedi Knights uniform before he retconned things. Even for the Phantom Menace they were going to go with the sort of ninja/samurai look for Jedi uniforms (a couple concepts got made as figures labeled "jedi training gear"
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that Obiwan figure is fairly close to Lukes ROTJ look and works for a knight. They could have still had monk-like Jedi at the temples wearing robes (perhaps white/gold robes) but the jedi knights should have worn something different from desert robes. George could have had them wear robes for Tattooine as a disguise, that would have worked
 
There are random dudes on the streets of Mos Eisley wearing similar to Ben's robes (just as there are random dudes wearing similar to Luke's outfit) - even landspeeder salesman guy gets in on the "jedi look outfit" action - so I think it was initially just meant to be pretty generic desert robes, not in any way related to Jedi knights.

And in fan magazines in the time of ANH and ESB, they would often show Luke in a black outfit when they were pushing a jedi knight angle. Luke's ROTJ outfit probably was sort of what GL thought of for a Jedi outfit - long hooded cloak, black outfit - yet you do wonder what the thought was with ghost Anakin at the end (other than it making him a father figure like Ben had been.)

All this being said, Ben's robes are indeed mimicking Samurai robes (the next logical step being swords, warriors, combat etc) so it does sort of make sense to go with that look as a Jedi's gear but I can't say I've loved seeing so many others over the decades in an outfit that for quite a number of years was just old Ben's desert robes.
 
I like to imagine what would have been if the Jedi looked like Baylan and Shin. Actual Knights.
I didn't like their costumes because they looked like anachronistic medieval fantasy LARPers. They looked *cool* but to me they didn't fit. YMMV of course.

I think some of ROTJ Luke's looks -- simple, sci-fi but dramatic -- were good enough. Darth Maul looked right to me, as well, given what he was.

If they had stayed with Lucas' Kurosawa-meets-Flash Gordon-shakes-hands-with-Buck Rogers-high-fives-Dambusters-tip-of-the-hat-to-Westerns thing ... without being too literal (meaning Knights in plate armour) I would have been happy but it's a mixed bag across all films and shows.

You can argue the desert robes were doing that (Samurai-esque) but they didn't make sense given the ANH setup.

I'll be the first to admit it's an open-ended mission and difficult to please everyone with their own internal visions of what it should look like, but I think one of the reasons the OT nailed it was because they had to work within constraints and limitations that kept the visual language concise and somewhat abstracted from the source material.

Rogue One's production design and costume department nailed it for the most part, IMO. Andor did really well with it too, unsurprisingly.
 
Sadly, Ben's Tatooine disguise gave him a deliberate "monk" appearance which then became synonymous with 'Jedi'... and then George just went with it.

The simple fix would have been simply for George to just leave out the 'brown cloak' as an addition to the PT Jedi attire. They didn't need those cloaks, and in fact when they fought they tossed them aside.
 
Sadly, Ben's Tatooine disguise gave him a deliberate "monk" appearance which then became synonymous with 'Jedi'... and then George just went with it.
Dumb call, but let's be honest, we all accepted really stupid stuff all along for the OT, and only stopped accepting it PT and beyond.

1. His last name is SKYWALKER?
2. Lives on the same planet as his Dad did.
3. His sister and him meet in a galaxy full of trillions.
4. Both Yoda and Ben lie repeatedly, and are the good guys, Vader tells the truth all along.

I am sure there are a ton more we blindly accept.
 
Dumb call, but let's be honest, we all accepted really stupid stuff all along for the OT, and only stopped accepting it PT and beyond.

1. His last name is SKYWALKER?
2. Lives on the same planet as his Dad did.
3. His sister and him meet in a galaxy full of trillions.
4. Both Yoda and Ben lie repeatedly, and are the good guys, Vader tells the truth all along.

I am sure there are a ton more we blindly accept.
Agreed technically but there's also a lot of caveats.

1. A problem, but more of a problem in the internet/social media era than it was in the 1970s (e.g. we are all now aware how many people share our name today) - there were things you could do with identity/name/personal history in the 1970s you can't today. Far easier for the brother you never knew you had to be living in the next city, or dad having a whole other wife/family two states over.
And also the way Anakin was set up in the OT was (to me at least) different to the way it was shown in the PT - he was built up in the PT to be this once-in-a-millennium prophet figure whereas he was more just a warrior colleague of Ben's who went over to the bad side.

2. Was that ever mentioned in the OT? Obviously sand became a major Anakin theme in the PT, but where/how was Vader/Anakin connected to Tatooine in the OT?

3. You are torpedoing the plot of at least 1,000 movies. :lol

4. True, but they don't lie maliciously. They lie in the way adoptive parents or family members holding back a dark family secret do. And Vader tells the truth maliciously, exploiting that truth solely to fuel his (and the Emperor's) desires and ambitions.
If you are in reality the great-grandson of Hitler, and unknowingly share some of his traits and abilities, what's worse: someone making up stuff so you never know or part-truths to re-frame/soften it, or someone telling you solely to exploit it for some evil global plot?
 
2. Was that ever mentioned in the OT? Obviously sand became a major Anakin theme in the PT, but where/how was Vader/Anakin connected to Tatooine in the OT?
Well the fact that Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru knew Anakin would suggest albeit not directly state that Anakin was from Tatooine. So it ought not to have been surprising really when the prequels confirmed that he was.
 
Well the fact that Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru knew Anakin would suggest albeit not directly state that Anakin was from Tatooine. So it ought not to have been surprising really when the prequels confirmed that he was.

You'd think that their deaths would have been somehow shown a bit from Vader's POV - like where he's ordered the murders of people (even a close relative) connected to Anakin Skywalker, something we would later on in the OT look back and say "oo, he even ordered his brother/half-brother to be murdered in cold blood (deaths that are unnecessary, and brutal, so likely intentionally ordered.)"

I get that Owen's a Roger Clinton brother but Luke is only ever shown pressing Ben for real detail about his father, rather than the foster parent he lives with who's in theory the brother/half-brother. It seems like Owen hasn't had much to do with Anakin in the past at all - it's not even clear he really knew him, or in reality just knew "of" him ie by reputation - the type of person he was.

Almost seems like Ben being a native of Tatooine has a stronger basis in the OT than Anakin because he's talked about as living there forever, a known fixture - maybe grew up there, went off on his journey/adventures then returned back home like many people do. Owen may simply have migrated to Tatooine as a settler/farmer a few decades earlier and then took on his half-brother's son after he died in some far-flung battlefield that Owen's barely aware of.
 
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Watching the Final Cut version of the original trilogy and overall pretty good. The way Boba Fett's voice is done is a good compromise. Morrison's and Wintergreen's voice's are merged a bit to make it sound like it's from the helmet. The emperor hologram in Empire is closer to jedi and looks better to. Those are awesome Fett pics JYE.
 
In honor of The Last Jedi's seventh anniversary yesterday, I actually sat down and re-watched it for the first time since it was released.

I hated it, of course, but I have to begrudgingly admit it's the "best" of the three Disney sequels.

TFA is unwatchable to me....just a boring, mind-numbing slog. I'll only watch that again if I get paid for it.

I've never seen TROS other than clips on youtube.

I decided to actually try to get through the entire thing.

My god. This movie is just UNFATHOMABLY stupid. It boggles the mind. HOW did this get made???
 
In honor of The Last Jedi's seventh anniversary yesterday, I actually sat down and re-watched it for the first time since it was released.

I hated it, of course, but I have to begrudgingly admit it's the "best" of the three Disney sequels.

TFA is unwatchable to me....just a boring, mind-numbing slog. I'll only watch that again if I get paid for it.

I've never seen TROS other than clips on youtube.

I decided to actually try to get through the entire thing.

My god. This movie is just UNFATHOMABLY stupid. It boggles the mind. HOW did this get made???
There was a long Facebook post in the past year or two that carefully broke down how every single disaster in the film was just a byproduct of Leia demoting Poe, an act that the film bizarrely set up as the "right" thing for her to have done. I wish I could find it but alas.
 
There was a long Facebook post in the past year or two that carefully broke down how every single disaster in the film was just a byproduct of Leia demoting Poe, an act that the film bizarrely set up as the "right" thing for her to have done. I wish I could find it but alas.
Found it!

"I recently re-watched [The Last Jedi] and I noticed something new that I don’t recall hearing anyone talk about before. I don’t claim to be an aficionado on movies, but here is my 2 cents.

The movie strikes me as written from the end to the beginning.

This is how I feel the movie-writing process went:

  • Rian Johnson wanted to open up with a frantic battle scene where the First Order comes up on the Rebels trying to make a last-minute escape. Then they end up in a long “race thru space” and end up on the base of a planet where Luke and Kylo can have a final lightsaber battle.
  • However, there needed to be a reason the Rebels would continue running, so there needed to be a major battle where the Rebels lost much of their fleet (enter the battle where Ackbar dies and Leia sort of dies but then doesn’t).
  • Then they had to figure out a way for the Rebels to be able to get to the planet without the First Order blowing them all up (enter Holdo and her hyperspace-defying act).
  • Who pilots this heroic suicide mission? It can’t be Leia. She needs to be on the planet to reunite with Luke, as the script doesn’t have time for their reunion anywhere else. Ackbar would have been a decent choice, but he had been chosen to die in the Raddus, so we need to create a new character, Holdo.
  • How does the First Order know to look for the fleeing Rebels? Well that is because Rose and Finn were betrayed by a codebreaker.
  • Why did Rose and Finn need to find the codebreaker? Because they were arrested for a parking violation when looking for the guy who supposedly was the only one in the galaxy who could disable the tracking device the First Order was using, and this random guy just happened to also be a “one-in-a-galaxy-codebreaker”. Imagine the odds of having 2 of those guys on the same planet at the same time?
  • Why did they need to search for this codebreaker? Because Poe didn’t trust Admiral Holdo when she said to trust her. He deduced that, since she wasn’t willing to divulge any plan to a senior flight commander, that meant she didn’t have one, so he made his own.
  • Why were they in this situation? Because the fleet had been largely destroyed, Admiral Ackbar was dead, Leia(marry poppins) was in a coma, and Holdo was the next in line.
  • How did the fleet get destroyed? Because the First Order was tracking them.
  • Why was Poe not considered important enough to tell the plan to? Because he had been demoted by Leia after showing he was a hot-head and disobeying her direct order to disengage.
There are a lot of issues with this line of storyline, but let me just say the whole thing unravels immediately at point 1, which is Poe being demoted.

We have seen time and again in the first 7 Star Wars movies, how hierarchy in the Resistance/Rebels often results from more of a group effort, and not as much from 1 single leader. Individual commanders, including fighter commanders (like Luke Skywalker and Poe), often have a lot of leeway regarding making individual decisions. We can see this represented earlier in this same battle, when Poe approaches the First Order, and Leia is heard telling him she doesn’t approve of this idea. However, by allowing him to go ahead, she is demonstrating his freedom to make his own decisions to a point.

The issue at hand later, when he deliberately disobeys her order to withdrawal, is even more murky than it appears. Poe disobeys her and continues to disable the defenses of the dreadnought. Once finished, he calls in the bombers. Note: this is AFTER Leia has already ordered him to withdraw. She easily could have simply “pulled rank” and forced the bombers and other fighters to choose between her and Poe. The fighters may not have, but the bombers almost certainly would have sided with the direct order from the Admiral. However, she doesn’t do this. She allows Poe to continue to call the shots. So either she is backtracking on her initial decision to tell Poe to withdraw, or she is playing with the lives of dozens of crew in order to teach Poe a lesson.

However, his decision turns out to be a resounding success! The Rebels lose all 6 bombers and probably a couple fighters, and in return they knock out a few Tie fighters and a huge and powerful dreadnought. Given the small size of the bombers, their slow speed and maneuverability, their lack of a proper shield, and the fact that they need to be directly above their target in order to hit it, it is almost a miracle that any of them even managed to get close to the First Order, let alone take out one of their main ships! These bombers are literal death traps, and any time they are committed can realistically be considered a suicide mission. That exchange of resources is a major win for the Rebels, regardless of the situation they are in. A proper comparison would be the current Chinese Navy losing a destroyer and a handful of jet fighters in exchange for sinking a US nuclear supercarrier. Regardless of the situation, that is a trade the Chinese would take any day(providing of course that they were at war).

So how does Leia react? She slaps him in the face out in the open and demotes him.

Sure it seems like a dumb move for Leia to do, but is it really that big of a deal? Well, the domino-effect of the entire movie rests on Poe being demoted, so yes this is a big deal. If this demotion is completely ridiculous then it calls into question the veracity of the rest of the movie. Now, Leia could have made a mistake in demoting him. However, the movie does not do this. It actually shows Leia doubling down on her mistake later in the movie, when she backed Holdo’s silent plan and sided with her against Poe.

Then you get this nonsensical and completely idiotic moment between Leia and Holdo where they both say how much they like Poe. I laughed out loud the first time I watched the movie at just how ridiculous this scene was."

:slap
 
Then you get this nonsensical and completely idiotic moment between Leia and Holdo where they both say how much they like Poe. I laughed out loud the first time I watched the movie at just how ridiculous this scene was."

:slap

What that scene truly represented was a traditional male-bonding moment flipped where the ladies were basically saying "yeah, he's hot". That's OK now, and empowering, but the other way is not anymore.
 
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