Star Wars: The Force Awakens (12/18/15)

[karamazov80]

Her eating that bread puff thing, playing with the helmet, sliding down the sand hill and getting a look at that old, withered scavenging lady (I got the idea like, "this could be my future some day") were some of the best shots and sequences in the movie. Good character moments without uttering a single word of dialogue.

Yeah. The shot with her taking a glance at the older woman, in particular, was good, because it has enough faith in the audience that you don't have to use crayons to explain everything, Marvel Studios-style. And not something Lucas would have done in the prequels if held at gun-point. He would have insisted on the woman turning to Rey and saying, "don't be like me in 60 years girl. Get out of here, make something of your life!" etc.

And of course, this was one more in the 15 billion allusions to the original films. Luke feared being stuck on Tatooine as a moisture farmer, turning into his uncle, when he wanted to GTFO of there.

No idea. I have no idea how the Resistance, First Order and Republic work, which faction is bigger/stronger or larger/weaker or why the good guys that started up the New Republic are "resistance fighters" when they'd really be an Army or something.

Before I saw the movie, I thought the First Order was a smaller faction and took the role of the rebels from the OT and the Leia's Republic forces were the dominant forces in the galaxy like the Empire had been originally. Then I saw it and gave up on what was what. I just figured they were somehow the Empire 2.0 and had been battling for a while.

Yeah, this stuff doesn't make a whole heck of a lot of sense to me, though I'm sure there is some convoluted explanation in the comics or novels associated with the movie. If the Empire, as we knew it, was gone, and if the Rebels were in charge of the cosmic government or whatever, then how did an Empire-like group of evil military guys end up having the resources and wherewithal to have ships, fancy well-trained soldiers, Death Star Planet, etc. that they did? I mean, you see military coups all the time in the real world, but presumably the Rebel government would have controlled the purse strings on the global military budget, which would have made something like this very unlikely.

But it doesn't really matter. It works in the story, to have the equivalent of the evil Empire from the old films as the bad guys and the good guys essentially being the Rebels again. Maybe blowing up all the governing planets or whatever was a way of keeping this pesky problem from getting in the way of the story JJ, Kasdan, et al. wanted to tell

And yes, the ending shot blew.

 

[DiFabio]

Yeah, this stuff doesn't make a whole heck of a lot of sense to me, though I'm sure there is some convoluted explanation in the comics or novels associated with the movie. If the Empire, as we knew it, was gone, and if the Rebels were in charge of the cosmic government or whatever, then how did an Empire-like group of evil military guys end up having the resources and wherewithal to have ships, fancy well-trained soldiers, Death Star Planet, etc. that they did? I mean, you see military coups all the time in the real world, but presumably the Rebel government would have controlled the purse strings on the global military budget, which would have made something like this very unlikely.

But it doesn't really matter. It works in the story, to have the equivalent of the evil Empire from the old films as the bad guys and the good guys essentially being the Rebels again. Maybe blowing up all the governing planets or whatever was a way of keeping this pesky problem from getting in the way of the story JJ, Kasdan, et al. wanted to tell

Yeah, we're on the same page. Even watching the movie, I still have no idea which faction is what. With the Starkiller destroyed, I would have assumed the First Order is in complete shambles with a heavy loss of life. They all seemed to be secluded at that one base, other than Snoke of course, but we know that's not the case since it's been revealed that the higher ups evacuated (Hux, Ren, Phasma, etc.) Still, that's quite a blow to the First Order. It's not like the moon sized Death Star, this was 4x bigger than that housed a ton and was like the sole headquarters of the First Order.

The thing I prefer in the Original Trilogy and even the Prequels is that the two sides of "good guys" and "bad guys" are clearly defined. With the first movie, Lucas didn't even have to explain what was going on. He has the opening visual show you. A HUGE Star Destoyer representing the Empire, tracking down the small Tantive IV representing the Rebels. That's all that needed to be said. The rebels were always the underdogs, spread out and hiding throughout the galaxy. The prequels defined their two sides too. The Trade Federation was just small potatoes, a distraction, everyone knew this. Then they start siding with the Separatist's or whatever (who are really the first "rebels" really) which kick starts the Clone Wars). Then we obviously get the Republic Army of Clones and Jedi which are outmatch the Confederacy.

With The Force Awakens, nothing is really clearly defined in terms of First Order and the Resistance. Really lousy of Luke and Han to bail and let this First Order form in the first place. If I were Leia, I'd never want to see the two of them again.

 

[GasparZizou]

Speaking of the prequels, this is circulating around.








I didn't really pay attention to all the Plagueis rumors that were going around about Force Awakens before it opened, but that music is pretty convincing. Could just be John Williams aping himself though or something.

It has to be him :

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

I don't always agree with his views, but he's right about Rey.

 

[karamazov80]

It would have been pretty easy to tell a story where the bad guys are essentially insurgent terrorists, but that would limit the amount of fan service that we would have received in this film.

 

[evenflow]

I completely agree with his comment about Finn (it's actually my biggest complaint about the movie). The Rey stuff makes sense as well. Doesn't detract my enjoyment.

 

[pturtle]

I thought the ending shot was awkward. I expect Rey to have one arm bigger than the other in episode 8.




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[Shawpaw]

I'm guessing Plagueis will get some more canonization in the next films.

 

[karamazov80]

I don't always agree with his views, but he's right about Rey.

Hard to argue with any of his points here

Still, if you've followed Abrams work, you aren't going into this film looking for the kind of richness and depth that you get with a genuinely gripping drama. Force Awakens was about fan service, nostalgia, being fun, providing some good action and character interactions, and setting the stage for a whole slew of sequels and spinoffs, from my perspective. Did it lack genuine threat and surprise? Were the characters fairly one-dimensional? Was the story less interesting than it could have been? Sure. But it was still a great time at the movies. Not everything needs to aspire to be more than what this was IMO. This is also Marvel Studios' MO, now that I think about it. Seems like Disney reserves the more complex stories for it's animated princess movies now

 

[Khev]

No idea. I have no idea how the Resistance, First Order and Republic work

Really? The movie seemed to make it clear that Supreme Leader Snoke rules the First Order which "rose from the ashes of the Empire" and they have their planet (or planets) and the Republic has its dominion with the "Resistance" being the Republic's military response to the FO or possibly any equivalent. My take was that the Republic funded the Resistance but didn't outright control them (since the destruction of the Republic capital didn't seem to phase Leia, Ackbar, etc. as far as the chain of command went.)

Seems straight forward enough in a "Star Wars" kind of way.

It's not like ANH really gave any insight as to how Leia's supposed death giving "sympathy in the Senate toward the Rebellion" would make any difference at all, or who or what the Senate was or how it functioned.

 

[Khev]

Or does TFA being good make the PT an easier pill to swallow?

You mean the way B&R became more ironically funny and acceptable after Batman Begins? Not really. For now I just want to completely forget about the PT.

 

[Khev]

It would have been pretty easy to tell a story where the bad guys are essentially insurgent terrorists, but that would limit the amount of fan service that we would have received in this film.

Before the movie opened I actually wondered if the opening shot would feature a large Resistance ship overtaking a FO vessel, with Resistance soldiers breaking through the door followed by Luke stepping through the smoke.

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

Hard to argue with any of his points here

Still, if you've followed Abrams work, you aren't going into this film looking for the kind of richness and depth that you get with a genuinely gripping drama. Force Awakens was about fan service, nostalgia, being fun, providing some good action and character interactions, and setting the stage for a whole slew of sequels and spinoffs, from my perspective. Did it lack genuine threat and surprise? Were the characters fairly one-dimensional? Was the story less interesting than it could have been? Sure. But it was still a great time at the movies. Not everything needs to aspire to be more than what this was IMO. This is also Marvel Studios' MO, now that I think about it. Seems like Disney reserves the more complex stories for it's animated princess movies now

I agree that the film is entertaining, but it's also dumb, with one dimensional characters and a rehashed plot, yet critics are giving it a pass because of nostalgia. It just got a nomination for best film of the year from the critics choice awards I can't accept that because it just shows how professional critics and all these websites and magazines are full of crap. Critics and people in general should be more objective. The worst are the SW fanboys who get upset at anyone who doesn't like the film or criticizes the obvious flaws. It's ridiculous...this film has a higher rating than ESB on RT The backlash is inevitable and people will eventually accept the film for what it really is, but it'll be a while before that happens.

 

[Khev]

I liked the Indiana Jones vibe of Han's "I used to think it was mumbo jumbo but it's all real" speech.

 

[karamazov80]

It's not like ANH really gave any insight as to how Leia's supposed death giving "sympathy in the Senate toward the Rebellion" would make any difference at all, or who or what the Senate was or how it functioned.

But that does tell you pretty clearly that the Empire is in charge, and is the status quo. It also tells you that it is not invulnerable, and that the Rebels could very well make life difficult for them. Not only militarily, but politically. So, that line does a great deal IMO. In Force Awakens it's very murky to me on first watch. Why are they called the Resistance if they aren't enemies with the governing power? What is their relationship with the governing power, anyway (like Fabio, my assumption was that all of what were formerly rebels would now be in charge?)? And again, why is the New Order in the position it is in? If you rise from the ashes of an ousted regime, you don't look like that and act like that in the real world. It's possible that the Star Wars universe plays by different rules, but the viewers should at least have an impression of what those rules are if you want things to really make sense.

But again, I'm making these comments as someone who had these questions come to mind. But by no means are they deal breakers or even particularly detrimental to the story being told on the screen. They're logical nuisances that are problematic in a post-ROTJ universe, given the story Abrams and Kasdan obviously wanted to tell, but I'm personally happy to sweep them under the carpet for the purpose of enjoying a genuinely fun and effective Star Wars movie. I am genuinely interested to see where they go from here, and really hope that it's not ESB territory.

I agree that the film is entertaining, but it's also dumb, with one dimensional characters and a rehashed plot, yet critics are giving it a pass because of nostalgia. It just got a nomination for best film of the year from the critics choice awards

I don't agree that it gets a pass simply because of nostalgia (though that plays a role, I'm sure). It's a very well made film in many respects, and tells a good story by and large, albeit a familiar one. But critics should, and perhaps here are, using a different metric to assess the effectiveness of Star Wars vs., say, one made by the current indie darling. It's an action-adventure film, not a complex, heart-wrenching exploration into an abusive relationship or some such. From that perspective, as an action-adventure film, it deserves to be recognized. Raiders of the Lost Ark ain't the Apartment, but it's a friggen great action-adventure movie worthy of recognition on that front. I could say the same about another great action movie that I wouldn't blink twice about considering as one of the best overall movies of the last few years--Mad Max: Fury Road.

But on the other hand, I have first hand experience with some of the Force Awakens fanatic backlash, and it's intense Not so different than what we saw soon after Dark Knight was released. And it's understandable for folks to get wrapped up in the excitement and hype over something, until the next big thing supplants it. But it's also quite annoying.

 

[RIDDICK]

I agree that the film is entertaining, but it's also dumb, with one dimensional characters and a rehashed plot, yet critics are giving it a pass because of nostalgia. It just got a nomination for best film of the year from the critics choice awards I can't accept that because it just shows how professional critics and all these websites and magazines are full of crap. Critics and people in general should be more objective. The worst are the SW fanboys who get upset at anyone who doesn't like the film or criticizes the obvious flaws. It's ridiculous...this film has a higher rating than ESB on RT The backlash is inevitable and people will eventually accept the film for what it really is, but it'll be a while before that happens.

Pretty much. Talkin' sense right now is just useless.

 

[Khev]

I admit to being a little confused over the one guy from HEROES being an X-Wing pilot. Was he cast on his own merits? Or was he a deliberate inside joke referencing Porkins which is why for the final attack they came up with an excuse to squeeze an even fatter bearded guy into an even tinier X-Wing.

 

[a-dev]

I agree with that video, Rey is overpowered. I really like the character but she was able to do too much. I'd like to say they should bring her back down to earth a bit in the next one but then that wouldn't seem to make logical sense for her to become less capable. So it's a tough one.

I am genuinely interested to see where they go from here, and really hope that it's not ESB territory.

What does it have to do to avoid being an ESB copy though? It seems inevitable to me that, being the middle film, episode 8 will have the bad guys winning and a cliffhanger ending - like ESB. So do you mean they should avoid ice planets, swamps and cloud cities? Or maybe avoid having the largest battle at the beginning of the film instead of the end?

 

[nexus]

Max Landis is nowhere near as smart as he thinks he is. His last two movies were American Ultra and Victor Frankenstein.

 

[Khev]

But that does tell you pretty clearly that the Empire is in charge, and is the status quo. It also tells you that it is not invulnerable, and that the Rebels could very well make life difficult for them. Not only militarily, but politically. So, that line does a great deal IMO.

Yes, the line explains that the Rebellion is a potential threat on military and political grounds but not to what level at all. Point being that's pretty much where we're at in TFA. I just take The First Order to be akin to The Third Reich rising from the ashes of Germany's decimated economy after WWI and that's all we need to know. Yes, we're unclear as to how much of "the galaxy" is under control of the FO but really, so what. They're evil Nazi dudes with solar system destroying planets. The Resistance is resisting them. Action and drama ensues. Works for me.