Star Wars: The Force Awakens (12/18/15)

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What does it have to do to avoid being an ESB copy though? It seems inevitable to me that, being the middle film, episode 8 will have the bad guys winning and a cliffhanger ending - like ESB.

I think he's referring to the possibility of Episode VIII being as specific with its ESB beats as TFA was with ANH. So yeah, opening with a land attack on a Resistance base, Finn goes off to train with Luke on some planet while Rey flies the Falcon, gets captured, frozen, you name it. That WILL suck if they go down that path.
 
What does it have to do to avoid being an ESB copy though? It seems inevitable to me that, being the middle film, episode 8 will have the bad guys winning and a cliffhanger ending - like ESB. So do you mean they should avoid ice planets, swamps and cloud cities? Or maybe avoid having the largest battle at the beginning of the film instead of the end?
Well it could still have a cliffhanger and the bad guys winning without being a "soft reboot" version of ESB as Force Awakens was of Star Wars, you know? As for Rey, the only thing I can reckon is that the bad guys are really going to step up. And so, she'll have to be the equivalent of Goku in Dragonball Z. He seems like the baddest bad-ass around, then a bad guy comes who makes him look like a chump. So, he has to do something to make himself as powerful or more powerful than the bad guy. Because right now, yeah, it's hard to think that Rey would have any problems tracking down and kicking Kylo's ass again, probably kicking the emperor guy's ass, single handedly destroying the enemy fleet with her super Jedi powers, etc.

--edit: yeah, what Khev says there. And I think they will have enough sense to do something more original for the follow-up--
 
But that does tell you pretty clearly that the Empire is in charge, and is the status quo. It also tells you that it is not invulnerable, and that the Rebels could very well make life difficult for them. Not only militarily, but politically. So, that line does a great deal IMO. In Force Awakens it's very murky to me on first watch. Why are they called the Resistance if they aren't enemies with the governing power? What is their relationship with the governing power, anyway (like Fabio, my assumption was that all of what were formerly rebels would now be in charge?)? And again, why is the New Order in the position it is in? If you rise from the ashes of an ousted regime, you don't look like that and act like that in the real world. It's possible that the Star Wars universe plays by different rules, but the viewers should at least have an impression of what those rules are if you want things to really make sense.

But again, I'm making these comments as someone who had these questions come to mind. But by no means are they deal breakers or even particularly detrimental to the story being told on the screen. They're logical nuisances that are problematic in a post-ROTJ universe, given the story Abrams and Kasdan obviously wanted to tell, but I'm personally happy to sweep them under the carpet for the purpose of enjoying a genuinely fun and effective Star Wars movie. I am genuinely interested to see where they go from here, and really hope that it's not ESB territory.


I don't agree that it gets a pass simply because of nostalgia (though that plays a role, I'm sure). It's a very well made film in many respects, and tells a good story by and large, albeit a familiar one. But critics should, and perhaps here are, using a different metric to assess the effectiveness of Star Wars vs., say, one made by the current indie darling. It's an action-adventure film, not a complex, heart-wrenching exploration into an abusive relationship or some such. From that perspective, as an action-adventure film, it deserves to be recognized. Raiders of the Lost Ark ain't the Apartment, but it's a friggen great action-adventure movie worthy of recognition on that front. I could say the same about another great action movie that I wouldn't blink twice about considering as one of the best overall movies of the last few years--Mad Max: Fury Road.

But on the other hand, I have first hand experience with some of the Force Awakens fanatic backlash, and it's intense :lol Not so different than what we saw soon after Dark Knight was released. And it's understandable for folks to get wrapped up in the excitement and hype over something, until the next big thing supplants it. But it's also quite annoying.

I understand all that, and I agree that critics don't judge this film or a film like Marvel's GOTG the same way they would a Martin Scorsese film, but I'm not even thinking about those types of films. When AOU came out, I remember a lot critics complaining about how similar it was to the first Avengers, how it was just more of the same, yet those same idiots are on their knees now sucking this film's...you know what. Now, I'm not the biggest AOU fan, I criticized it as much as anyone in SSF, but I'm fair when it come to criticizing a film, and the same way I didn't give AOU a pass on some areas, I have to do the same with SW...and eventually BVS, even though I'm a Batman fanboy.
 
Yes, the line explains that the Rebellion is a potential threat on military and political grounds but not to what level at all. Point being that's pretty much where we're at in TFA. I just take The First Order to be akin to The Third Reich rising from the ashes of Germany's decimated economy after WWI and that's all we need to know. Yes, we're unclear as to how much of "the galaxy" is under control of the FO but really, so what. They're evil Nazi dudes with solar system destroying planets. The Resistance is resisting them. Action and drama ensues. Works for me.
Well the German analogy can't go very far, because their entire economy and society was in shambles. There was no equivalent of a (presumably) somewhat competent and functional rebel-run government. The Nazis gained power and influence because there was massive discontent and a huge power vacuum. There was also an international community that facilitated its rise in various ways. There's no discussion of any of this in Force Awakens, so again, I'm not sure what this group is, how they got there, how they can continue to operate, etc.
 
Kylo took a direct blast to the gut from Chewie's Cobra Assault Bowcaster. Did you see what that thing was doing to Stormtroopers? Of course he'd struggle after receiving such a wound. Plus Finn and Rey were probably literally his first ever lightsaber opponents. He was messed up emotionally and physically. I'm okay with how he fared.
 
Really? The movie seemed to make it clear that Supreme Leader Snoke rules the First Order which "rose from the ashes of the Empire" and they have their planet (or planets) and the Republic has its dominion with the "Resistance" being the Republic's military response to the FO or possibly any equivalent. My take was that the Republic funded the Resistance but didn't outright control them (since the destruction of the Republic capital didn't seem to phase Leia, Ackbar, etc. as far as the chain of command went.)

Seems straight forward enough in a "Star Wars" kind of way.

It's not like ANH really gave any insight as to how Leia's supposed death giving "sympathy in the Senate toward the Rebellion" would make any difference at all, or who or what the Senate was or how it functioned.

I don't get it.jpg
 
I understand all that, and I agree that critics don't judge this film or a film like Marvel's GOTG the same way they would a Martin Scorsese film, but I'm not even thinking about those types of films. When AOU came out, I remember a lot critics complaining about how similar it was to the first Avengers, how it was just more of the same, yet those same idiots are on their knees now sucking this film's...you know what. Now, I'm not the biggest AOU fan, I criticized it as much as anyone in SSF, but I'm fair when it come to criticizing a film, and the same way I didn't give AOU a pass on some areas, I have to do the same with SW...and eventually BVS, even though I'm a Batman fanboy.

Force Awakens is a hell of a lot better than Age of Apocalypse, IMO, for many reasons. And I think the biggest reason for that stems from the fact that Whedon was tired, and ready to move on, while JJ and friends were fresh, and ready to get started with something.
 
Well the German analogy can't go very far, because their entire economy and society was in shambles. There was no equivalent of a (presumably) somewhat competent and functional rebel-run government. The Nazis gained power and influence because there was massive discontent and a huge power vacuum. There was also an international community that facilitated its rise in various ways. There's no discussion of any of this in Force Awakens, so again, I'm not sure what this group is, how they got there, how they can continue to operate, etc.

Discussion shmiscussion. Their officers walk around like Nazis. Their troopers do "Heil Hux" one armed salutes. Their foot soldiers actually take pleasure in genocide. They're bad but their "rise" is largely a mystery. Quit over thinking it man. :D
 
Yes, the line explains that the Rebellion is a potential threat on military and political grounds but not to what level at all. Point being that's pretty much where we're at in TFA. I just take The First Order to be akin to The Third Reich rising from the ashes of Germany's decimated economy after WWI and that's all we need to know. Yes, we're unclear as to how much of "the galaxy" is under control of the FO but really, so what. They're evil Nazi dudes with solar system destroying planets. The Resistance is resisting them. Action and drama ensues. Works for me.

I've watched multiple viewings of the film and the connection was never that clear between the alliance and the resistance ....always best not to over think these types of films.
 
They're bad but their "rise" is largely a mystery. Quit over thinking it man. :D

This is unacceptable! Palps was the final boss that got thrown down the Death Star shaft to his death. Vader turned good and died! Tarkin died on the first Death Star. Grand Moff Jerjerrod died on the second Death Star! My boy, Admiral Piett (underrated officer along with General Veers in my opinion) got killed by a kamikaze A-Wing pilot. Thousands of troops were destroyed in the second Death Star. The Empire's best men on Endor (according to Palpatine himself) were killed and/or rounded up and their armor get turned into musical Ewok instruments. Their best Star Destroyer's were destroyed, and Vader's huge Executor command ship took a nose dive.

The Empire was finished! I saw the rebel celebration man! How do you rise up out of nothing and become this strong that you can put together an even bigger Death Star!? Who's SNOKE, he's lived for a long time and seen it all? Palpatine and granddaddy Vader were the big bads.

How did they put together the Stormtrooper program under Republic law? How were babies like Finn who were born in the New Republic, taken from their homes when they were infants and turned into foot soldiers!?
 
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B-Wing pilot? Your argument is invalid newb. :monkey1

We saw one party after the second Death Star exploded. But as Han Solo himself said, "There are a lot of command ships" (referring to Vader's Super Star Destroyer.) Did we see a lot of Super Star Destroyers at Endor? Nope. So there were others out there and apparently they got together with Snoke and reorganized the remnants of the Empire into what we see now.
 
Damn it, I mean A-wing! I miss those starfighters too. :( General Leia, what went wrong?
 
Well I just got home from finally seeing the remake of A New Hope...........I liked it, but I didn't love it. Not going to write up a thesis on it because that's been done to death, but some of it was awesome nostalgia and other parts were predictable and disappointing.
 
Lol Porkins 2.0 is Greg Grunberg. JJ's 'good luck charm'. They were schoolmates or something. He was the Pilot in Lost, talked to Tom Cruise about traffic in MI:3.... I'm sure there's more.
 
Kylo took a direct blast to the gut from Chewie's Cobra Assault Bowcaster. Did you see what that thing was doing to Stormtroopers? Of course he'd struggle after receiving such a wound. Plus Finn and Rey were probably literally his first ever lightsaber opponents. He was messed up emotionally and physically. I'm okay with how he fared.

Your points are well taken and honestly this was one of the things I was shaking my head at......a well trained "sith" getting his ass handed to him by a totally untrained rookie who's never even held a light sabre.
 
I agree that the film is entertaining, but it's also dumb, with one dimensional characters and a rehashed plot, yet critics are giving it a pass because of nostalgia. It just got a nomination for best film of the year from the critics choice awards :lol I can't accept that because it just shows how professional critics and all these websites and magazines are full of crap. Critics and people in general should be more objective. The worst are the SW fanboys who get upset at anyone who doesn't like the film or criticizes the obvious flaws. It's ridiculous...this film has a higher rating than ESB on RT :slap The backlash is inevitable and people will eventually accept the film for what it really is, but it'll be a while before that happens.
Yeah, still beats most summer blockbusters but there's complete truth to this.

Although, it still hasn't beat ESB.

ESB stands at 8.9 on RT while this is already at 8.2.

Freshness rating doesn't matter.
 
I don't always agree with his views, but he's right about Rey.


:rotfl

He might have a terrible sense of fashion but the man has a point :lol And he's writing a pretty decent Superman American Alien, so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.

God damn, I haven't thought a lot about this movie and I thought it couldn't go below the 6.5 I gave it but it just might, it just might. BUT, there is still the possibility that this could be better once the new trilogy is completed, it's too early for me to tell.
 
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