Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Dec 15th, 2017)

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Going back to this...Rey absolutely changed in TLJ. In both TFA and TLJ she basically sidelined herself from all outside conflicts (Jakku in TFA, Ach-To in TLJ) in order to wait until someone told her what her "place in the world/galaxy" was. She did find a place where she fit in with Han but he was taken away from her so she moved on to Luke. But Ach-To told her that life isn't about sitting around waiting for your "heroes" (whether they be parents or "legends" like Luke) to tell her where she belongs and what to do. She decided that she was going to take a proactive role in pursuing the convictions that were inside her. So she journeyed to Snoke's ship willingly (instead of being captured in TFA) she came to the Resistance' defense willingly (instead of via rescue in TFA.)

Everything kind of "went to pot" for the Resistance when Rey wasn't around and her being literally front and center in the last shot of the Falcon said that she's there to stay, and that going forward the Resistance will have the one thing it had been lacking--someone powerful in the Force (and the willingness to use it.) A huge change from the beginning of the film or from where the Resistance stood in TFA for that matter.

Finn and Poe aren't really main characters in this trilogy. They're more on the level of Chewie and the Droids or Marcus and Sallah in the Indy series. Their arcs are really only as important as whatever is needed to drive the plot forward, and to that they both fulfilled their respective purposes.

The "main three" characters in TLJ are clearly Rey, Kylo, and Luke. Luke's arc doesn't even need to be repeated, it's been discussed at length and is one of the highlights of the entire Saga. Kylo finally stopped being a poseur lackey (a primary theme of this film was growing beyond your teachers which all three did) and he became his own figure apart from Vader and even apart from Snoke.

So I wholeheartedly disagree with the claim that "nothing happens" in this film or that the *primary* characters didn't change or grow (technically even Poe did grow though he didn't really need to given his role in all of this.)

And I know that it's shocking for me not to concede that Rey is the worst kind of "Mary Sue" but honestly I've never in my life even heard that term outside of the internet. It's not like Rey commits all these sins of these past lame characters, starting with someone actually named "Mary Sue." Where does that term even come from? For most of the story she's lost and confused and largely directionless and in any other narrative those all *would* be considered "flaws." But for her they aren't because she can do a mind trick with no training, bla bla bla. I just think that all of those claims are largely exaggerated. Yes she's special, more powerful than others, etc., but again so is MCU Cap, Neo from The Matrix, Harry Potter, PT Anakin and so on and so on. Except she's actually more likeable than most other "chosen one" type characters save for arguably MCU Cap. Too many people are simply over-reacting and accepting the criticisms without really thinking them through.

All very good points, but I find myself in the odd position of being the guy who says "I get it, it just doesn't work for me" that a lot of people find themselves in when I talk about the great things I see in BvS or the PT :lol

I can follow your reasoning on an intellectual level, but none of it works for me the way it is presented in the movie.
 
There was an interesting study just published in the New England Journal of Medicine. Guys who’ve seen TLJ more than twice all had severely Low T. Doctors aren’t sure if it’s causal, but either way some folks may want to get checked to be safe :)
 
And I know that it's shocking for me not to concede that Rey is the worst kind of "Mary Sue" but honestly I've never in my life even heard that term outside of the internet. It's not like Rey commits all these sins of these past lame characters, starting with someone actually named "Mary Sue." Where does that term even come from? For most of the story she's lost and confused and largely directionless and in any other narrative those all *would* be considered "flaws." But for her they aren't because she can do a mind trick with no training, bla bla bla. I just think that all of those claims are largely exaggerated. Yes she's special, more powerful than others, etc., but again so is MCU Cap, Neo from The Matrix, Harry Potter, PT Anakin and so on and so on. Except she's actually more likeable than most other "chosen one" type characters save for arguably MCU Cap. Too many people are simply over-reacting and accepting the criticisms without really thinking them through.

Have you not watched Grace's YouTube vid of explaining the "MarySue" term and it's origins? If not, you really should. Your naming characters that have a long history and complete backstories. Part of the problem is Rey turned up from nowhere. If RJ answered some of the questions from TFA, or actually gave her a good character and story arc evolution, maybe we'd no longer see her as a MarySue.. I liked Rey in TFA.
 
All very good points, but I find myself in the odd position of being the guy who says "I get it, it just doesn't work for me" that a lot of people find themselves in when I talk about the great things I see in BvS or the PT :lol

I can follow your reasoning on an intellectual level, but none of it works for me the way it is presented in the movie.

Fair enough! :duff
 
The Trump Presidency is like taking an uber and realizing there's a crack pipe in the side pocket. - Dave Chappelle
 
:lol :lol :lol

You’re ruining Snake’s savage moment with himself lol

It seems I struck a nerve with Trump Sue and Obama Windu. :lol

Zach just hates us because....well....because lol

hWnoMDD.gif
 
We now know that the Lucasfilm Story Group is run by a bunch of political hacks. As overseers, their #1 priority is supposed to be to ensure the integrity of the films and the canon generally. But instead their goal has been to "destroy the past" and remake it in Dibella's image.

Rey out-Mary Sues Mary Sue. She is now the symbol of the Mary Sue. The ultimate cardboard heroine with an incomparable jobber aura that was cynically created to double the fan base by appealing to woman. And in the process they offended both genders. Typical tone deaf corporate logic. Focus group bs.





TLJ's backasswordness applied to E5.



Star Wars is doomed. The more time passes the more people will resent Lucasfilm for what they've done. It's not going to stop.


Interesting facts. The Lucasfilm Story Group didn't have a story planned for E8. No Rey backstory. No Snoke backstory. No Luke backstory. KK gave RJ free reign to do what he wanted.

6 out of 8 people in KK's Story Group are women, Kennedy said in an interview, adding that "I think it’s making a huge difference in the kind of stories we’re trying to tell".

No ****? Why should that make a difference at all if your primary goal is to make quality films?

The irony is that she's becoming a liability for feminism everywhere, just as Grace warned about. See the video below.



From the video below: "It's now clear why Rey is a Mary Sue. It's clear why Holdo is a ****. It's clear why these movies have no structure, no direction, or entertainment value."



Your honor, the People rest.
 


That's a perfect gif.


Thought this was a funny post by Dresky in the action figures section that suits the conversation here:

1980 : "Do you think my Star Wars collection can survive with the stupid idea of ghosts and little green crazy mentor?"

1983 : "Do you think my Star Wars collection can survive with all those teddy bears saving the galaxy?"

1999 : "Do you think my Star Wars collection can survive with that stupid racing kiddo Vader and Jar Jar?"

2002 : "Do you think my Star Wars collection can survive with the worst scenario ever and all the ****** clones and dancing Jedis?"

2005 : "Do you think my Star Wars collection can survive now that the story's over FOREVER?"

2015 : "Do you think my Star Wars collection can survive Han's death, emo bad guy and Mary Sue heroine?"

2017 : "Do you think my Star Wars collection can survive Space Leia, hobo Luke and that stupid casino scene?"


Yes.
 
Going back to this...Rey absolutely changed in TLJ. In both TFA and TLJ she basically sidelined herself from all outside conflicts (Jakku in TFA, Ach-To in TLJ) in order to wait until someone told her what her "place in the world/galaxy" was. She did find a place where she fit in with Han but he was taken away from her so she moved on to Luke. But Ach-To told her that life isn't about sitting around waiting for your "heroes" (whether they be parents or "legends" like Luke) to tell her where she belongs and what to do. She decided that she was going to take a proactive role in pursuing the convictions that were inside her. So she journeyed to Snoke's ship willingly (instead of being captured in TFA) she came to the Resistance' defense willingly (instead of via rescue in TFA.)

Everything kind of "went to pot" for the Resistance when Rey wasn't around and her being literally front and center in the last shot of the Falcon said that she's there to stay, and that going forward the Resistance will have the one thing it had been lacking--someone powerful in the Force (and the willingness to use it.) A huge change from the beginning of the film or from where the Resistance stood in TFA for that matter.

Finn and Poe aren't really main characters in this trilogy. They're more on the level of Chewie and the Droids or Marcus and Sallah in the Indy series. Their arcs are really only as important as whatever is needed to drive the plot forward, and to that they both fulfilled their respective purposes.

The "main three" characters in TLJ are clearly Rey, Kylo, and Luke. Luke's arc doesn't even need to be repeated, it's been discussed at length and is one of the highlights of the entire Saga. Kylo finally stopped being a poseur lackey (a primary theme of this film was growing beyond your teachers which all three did) and he became his own figure apart from Vader and even apart from Snoke.

So I wholeheartedly disagree with the claim that "nothing happens" in this film or that the *primary* characters didn't change or grow (technically even Poe did grow though he didn't really need to given his role in all of this.)

And I know that it's shocking for me not to concede that Rey is the worst kind of "Mary Sue" but honestly I've never in my life even heard that term outside of the internet. It's not like Rey commits all these sins of these past lame characters, starting with someone actually named "Mary Sue." Where does that term even come from? For most of the story she's lost and confused and largely directionless and in any other narrative those all *would* be considered "flaws." But for her they aren't because she can do a mind trick with no training, bla bla bla. I just think that all of those claims are largely exaggerated. Yes she's special, more powerful than others, etc., but again so is MCU Cap, Neo from The Matrix, Harry Potter, PT Anakin and so on and so on. Except she's actually more likeable than most other "chosen one" type characters save for arguably MCU Cap. Too many people are simply over-reacting and accepting the criticisms without really thinking them through.

After this post I can now walk away from discussing this movie any further with anyone else and just walk away knowing that I landed on the correct side of is TLJ a modern PT quality movie or not argument.

What JAWS describes as lack of drama that comes with Rey being a Mary Sue or that nothing important happens in the movie has been perfectly addressed with your post and articulated much better than I could ever had hoped to accomplish on my own.

From day one we never said it was perfect like ANH/ESB.

What do we have to lose loving this movie Khev, our reputation?

Whooped De Doooo lol
 

There are no words to describe the epicness of that gif.



"I Have a valid point and a sound argument but I'm gonna be lazy and quote 10 YouTube videos I posted myself no one cared to watch in the first place." Then brag about how right I am.

:lol :lol

I might be a pompous ******* but at least I type my **** out lol
 
"I Have a valid point and a sound argument but I'm gonna be lazy and quote 10 YouTube videos I posted myself no one cared to watch in the first place." Then brag about how right I am.

It's called reinforcing your argument with evidence. I've been doing this a long time.
 
After this post I can now walk away from discussing this movie any further with anyone else and just walk away knowing that I landed on the correct side of is TLJ a modern PT quality movie or not argument.

What JAWS describes as lack of drama that comes with Rey being a Mary Sue or that nothing important happens in the movie has been perfectly addressed with your post and articulated much better than I could ever had hoped to accomplish on my own.

From day one we never said it was perfect like ANH/ESB.

What do we have to lose loving this movie Khev, our reputation?

Whooped De Doooo lol

:duff

Also a really subtle moment at the very end of the film to highlight the fact that Rey was not the "nobody" that Kylo claimed she was was when she introduced herself to Poe. "Hi I'm Poe." "I'm Rey." "I know." Not only was it a poetic reversal of the "scoundrel" character saying "I know" but unlike Han's awesome dismissal of Leia's love in ESB Poe actually used that phrase to confirm that Rey was not an unknown nobody. "Rey" was no longer a meaningless name with no connotations, it was a name known and respected by the most kickass warriors in the Resistance.

TDIL Khev and Jye still have reputation.

mN86pY4.gif
 
Thought this was a funny post by Dresky in the action figures section that suits the conversation here:

You can even add:

1978: "Do you think my Star Wars collection can survive Princess Leia singing off-key in that terrible Christmas special?"

1984: "Do you think my Star Wars collection can survive that terrible Ewok TV movie?"

1985: "Do you think my Star Wars collection can survive Wilford Brimley running around Endor in the *second* Ewok movie??"

Etc., etc.
 
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