Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Dec 15th, 2017)

[jye4ever]

I just needed the final piece and you provided it



You’re missing the point that those movies were good

I say TLJ was good.

Critics said it was good.

Cinemascore said it was good.

Sorry it didn’t work out for you.

 

[Popnfresh98]

I say TLJ was good.

Critics said it was good.

Cinemascore said it was good.

Please tell me you’re under 19 lol

The people who dislike it recognize that people like it too, the rest is just us being cheeky, I thought you’d get that of all people, (your sick memes from JL/BVS are missed) why do the other half have such a problem accepting that people couldn’t like it? Why is it ‘fake news’ or a ‘vocal minority?’ They’re everywhere, on Reddit, YouTube vids, even on this forum. The fans reviews are blasting it everywhere, with lower scores than AotC even.

Why is it that we must be under 19? Your viewpoint is sorely limited if anyone who disagrees must share some kind of defect (in this case just their age.. oh heavens no!) btw I’m 89 so I guess I’m right?

Even mark doesn’t approve. He’s the biggest fan there is.

Also Ford and Guinness felt SW is below their acting ability and talent whereas Mark’s dissapointment comes from a different place, of not staying true to what came before, because he is a fan like us. Ford moved on and hates talking about it even. Marks in it for life. Though that’s become tough on him now.

The fact remains this movie is highly divisive whereas the other good movies you referenced are not.

 

[Asta]

And over half of the reviews on RT say it’s bad.

It shows 49% of people rated it at 3.5/5 or higher (i.e. 70% +)

51% of people therefore rated it at less than 3.5/5 (i.e. - 70%)



The average rating is 3/5 (60%).



IMDB is still holding at 7.5/10.


It's not as hated to the degree that internet posters and Youtube 'personalities' would like people to believe.

 

[ZaCHw117]

Caught it for my last time today. Still ****n rocks.

 

[a-dev]

Also Ford and Guinness felt SW is below their acting ability and talent whereas Mark’s dissapointment comes from a different place, of not staying true to what came before, because he is a fan like us. Ford moved on and hates talking about it even. Marks in it for life. Though that’s become tough on him now.

The fact remains this movie is highly divisive whereas the other good movies you referenced are not.

I was going to make that same counterpoint. Guinness and Ford didn't particularly like Star Wars. Guinness most certainly thought it was beneath him while Ford is 'quite the mercenary'. His thanks for Star Wars only amounts to how it got his career started but he far prefers other things he did. He never thought much of Han Solo and the most he could offer on where the character should go was that he should die. And he's totally indifferent about the upcoming Solo movie. He was asked about it during the summer.

Hamill isn't an obsessive by any means and hasn't watched the films anywhere to the extent that we have but it's clear from all these interviews that he really cares. There's no doubt in my mind that he's thinking ''Dammit, I ****ing knew it''. But he's a nice guy, he has empathy and so he has tried to have Rian Johnson's back in more recent statements.

 

[Sachiel]

I say TLJ was good.

Critics said it was good.

Cinemascore said it was good.

China said it wa- oh wait.

 

[Asta]

Hamill's hatred lead him to the dark side.

You see that Q&A where he snubbed Daisy at the end? Something like he looked forward to working again with everyone apart from Daisy. She looked stunned, and everyone on the stage was waiting for Hamill to reveal that he was obviously joking.

But he didn't. General embarrassment ensued, and the presenter said something like, 'we can't end it like that', but Hamill was unmoved. So they had to end it like that.

It was the same Q&A where he kept asking for questions to be repeated because he said he'd fallen asleep.


He went so far down that road that he became as isolated as Luke was in TLJ.

 

[Asta]

China said it wa- oh wait.

Star Wars is a western.

They prefer easterns.

 

[klwn]

In case more proof was needed that there wasn't even an outline for TLJ, Hamill recently revealed that at the end of TFA, when Rey sees him, we was supposed to have giant boulders floating around him (as in, he wasn't disconnected from the Force, at all). Jedi Master practice basically.

When he read the script for TLJ and the part about Luke being disconnected from the Force, he contacted JJ/Ruin to clear things out, and they told him that the boulders ended up not being included to make sure things would remain coherent between both movies.

So really, in JJ's mind after finishing TFA, Luke was going to go in a completely different direction. Not only does this show once again (they said it anyway) that there is no clear plan for this trilogy, but also that we could have had something way different had Ruin Johnson not been the writer on this movie.

 

[Popnfresh98]

It shows 49% of people rated it at 3.5/5 or higher (i.e. 70% +)

51% of people therefore rated it at less than 3.5/5 (i.e. - 70%)

The average rating is 3/5 (60%).

Using that average AOTC is still rated higher than TLJ at 3.3/5 (66%), which is pretty telling. But fair enough; I edited that out as I didn’t realize RT user scores worked that way.

My main point is the need for personal insults anyway, even if a lot more liked it.

On a tangent that only further demonstrates RT’s rating system is quite nonsensical; both in critic reviews with the binary system and the user reviews with the odd weighting system you detailed. I’m still not quite sure how it became the review aggregator of choice, not to mention how someone (I think crows always shares the conspiracies ) showed evidence that they show bad reviews as fresh at times.

Metacritic’s much more straightforward averaging the scores system makes more sense in every way. It’s how we learned to find averages in school and apply them to the real world, right? Before RT that’s always how averages were calculated, and still are in every other field.

In case more proof was needed that there wasn't even an outline for TLJ, Hamill recently revealed that at the end of TFA, when Rey sees him, we was supposed to have giant boulders floating around him (as in, he wasn't disconnected from the Force, at all). Jedi Master practice basically.

When he read the script for TLJ and the part about Luke being disconnected from the Force, he contacted JJ/Ruin to clear things out, and they told him that the boulders ended up not being included to make sure things would remain coherent between both movies.

So really, in JJ's mind after finishing TFA, Luke was going to go in a completely different direction. Not only does this show once again (they said it anyway) that there is no clear plan for this trilogy, but also that we could have had something way different had Ruin Johnson not been the writer on this movie.

I hadn’t heard of this boulder scene before... that’s quite the change... do you have a link to a video or article of this by any chance?

But yes this is easily provable by the timing of when Mark started saying such things as well. Leading up to TLJ he was happy even though he would joke about how he had no role in tfa, and then as production got underway on TLJ started he started making all these odd comments he’s kept up until now. And his behaviour on stage at times has gone from completely disillusioned to even borderline disrespectful as in the interview shared earlier today.

 

[Asta]

But that only further demonstrates RT’s rating system is quite nonsensical; both in critic reviews with the binary system and the user reviews with the odd weighting system you detailed.

It does seem that way.

It's over complicated. As I wrote a while ago, the way I look at ratings is that 50.1% and above means something is liked more than disliked. The closer to 100% something gets is an indication that like is turning to love. And at the other end the closer to 0% indicates dislike turning to hate.


With TLJ I think that hate has become infectious in online circles, to the point where people become blinded by the views of others. So the hate grows exponentially with message boards and Youtube personalities, and potential fallacies become repeated as truths.

Fallacies such as the supposed political ideology being promoted by the film, even though the story itself subverts that notion. There isn't a single narrative thread, but rather the viewpoints of various characters in conflict culminating in a resolution of sorts.

My first viewing was coloured by preconceptions. My second sought to look beyond those. My third finally saw things falling into place, and the reasons why the story evolved they way it did. There are still faults of course, but I see the ST as being more akin to the OT than the PT.

The things to remember with Star Wars films is that they're fantasy not science fiction; and that they originated as George's homage to the serial cliffhangers that were being repeated during his youth, which were not usually high art but characterized by action driven with a simple plot.

It's about flying to planets, encountering aliens, battling against evil, making moral choices etc. Above all it's following characters on their journey. While cliffhangers were the inspiration other genres and influences also played their part to create the whole. TLJ therefore takes from other works of fiction to put Luke in a place (psychologically) where neither we, nor Mark Hamill, expected to find him. But the character is neverthless human, so Rian took him to a dark place and challenged him along with the audience.

 

[DiFabio]

I say TLJ was good.

What's good about it.

 

[DarkShadow]

In case more proof was needed that there wasn't even an outline for TLJ, Hamill recently revealed that at the end of TFA, when Rey sees him, we was supposed to have giant boulders floating around him (as in, he wasn't disconnected from the Force, at all). Jedi Master practice basically.

When he read the script for TLJ and the part about Luke being disconnected from the Force, he contacted JJ/Ruin to clear things out, and they told him that the boulders ended up not being included to make sure things would remain coherent between both movies.

So really, in JJ's mind after finishing TFA, Luke was going to go in a completely different direction. Not only does this show once again (they said it anyway) that there is no clear plan for this trilogy, but also that we could have had something way different had Ruin Johnson not been the writer on this movie.

So you want Disney to control directors and not give them freedom? Only for people to complain that Disney isn't giving directors creative freedom

 

[Prime Clone]

I'm not sure having it planned from the start necessarily helps, but Abrams can still bring back Snoke (or at least explain him) and make Rey a somebody if he wants.

 

[loki2371]

The fact that many defenders of this movie need to iterate that multiple viewings are needed and they helped to change/strengthen their opinion is a problem. I have NEVER watched a movie that I disliked the 1st time that the a 2nd viewing made me enjoy it. Tolerate it, maybe, but like it to the point I become a fan, no. Quite the opposite in some cases. I hated BvS. Tried to watch a 2nd time at home, the minute they showed Luthor I turned it off.

And I'm not the 1st to say this. If you have some/any contempt towards Disney's direction they are taking SW and how they are treating the OT and it's fans, it makes no sense to continue to reward them by giving them your money with multiple viewings. That's just crazy.

 

[Popnfresh98]

Found the quote regarding the original TFA ending that he made in China recently:

When we were doing [The Force Awakens], JJ said, ‘We might have boulders floating to show your Force emanating’, so I was led to believe that I still had the Force and it was really strong in me.

When I read [The Last Jedi] before [The Force Awakens] came out, I said ‘what?!” and called JJ [Abrams] and Rian [Johnson] to say, ‘Are you guys aware of this? Have you seen a cut? Are there floating boulders?’ And they said, ‘No, we caught that and we worked it all out.’

The fact that many defenders of this movie need to iterate that multiple viewings are needed and they helped to change/strengthen their opinion is a problem. I have NEVER watched a movie that I disliked the 1st time that the a 2nd viewing made me enjoy it. Tolerate it, maybe, but like it to the point I become a fan, no. Quite the opposite in some cases. I hated BvS. Tried to watch a 2nd time at home, the minute they showed Luthor I turned it off.

And I'm not the 1st to say this. If you have some/any contempt towards Disney's direction they are taking SW and how they are treating the OT and it's fans, it makes no sense to continue to reward them by giving them your money with multiple viewings. That's just crazy.

Ditto. My opinion on a movie has never changed from first to second viewing. I’ve never had to attack it from another angle. Quite a few pages ago people were also trying to explain certain moments and how they made sense; each of their individual interpretations was different however they came to an agreement in the end. The fact that even lovers of the movie don’t even see the same events the same way shows how poorly it was communicated to the audience.

 

[Asta]

I haven't given Disney much yet. I haven't been tempted into a cinema since 1991.

Paid £6.95 for the Visual Dictionary and an NRD for HT Luke. That's it.


It helped that the third viewing was of a much better copy of the film.


I watched the PT quite a few times before I decided to give it a real chance and see what good there was in them. Not enough good there to warrant collectibles though, just Visual Dictionaries.

 

[Prime Clone]

So that scene went from Luke training with boulders to Luke about to throw himself off the cliff? That's quite the 180° change.

Incongruous that he's still wearing Jedi robes.

 

[Popnfresh98]

My first viewing was coloured by preconceptions. My second sought to look beyond those. My third finally saw things falling into place, and the reasons why the story evolved they way it did. There are still faults of course, but I see the ST as being more akin to the OT than the PT.

The things to remember with Star Wars films is that they're fantasy not science fiction; and that they originated as George's homage to the serial cliffhangers that were being repeated during his youth, which were not usually high art but characterized by action driven with a simple plot.

It's about flying to planets, encountering aliens, battling against evil, making moral choices etc. Above all it's following characters on their journey. While cliffhangers were the inspiration other genres and influences also played their part to create the whole. TLJ therefore takes from other works of fiction to put Luke in a place (psychologically) where neither we, nor Mark Hamill, expected to find him. But the character is neverthless human, so Rian took him to a dark place and challenged him along with the audience.

I understand that, and Star Wars certainly has those elements, but Lucas also added the mythological to it thereby taking it beyond his influences such as Flash Gordon. To make it easier to imagine, let’s say Star Wars is a story told around a campfire. The PT and the OT could be told as a story and they would follow the mythological hero’s journey (the pt to a slightly lesser extent as its in reverse in some ways), except one thing that Lucas did better was that the hero didn’t do the Freudian/Oedipal killing of the father, but saved him, making Luke a hero unlike many others. The story as it ends here is a proper myth.

However then you get to the next part of the story and say the mythological hero was now so disturbed by his nephews power (who hadn’t done anything yet) that he considered killing him in his sleep. Does that seem to fit? It’s more of a tv show progression, where a twist has been done to keep the drama going, but it’s not worthy of a legendary story. Not to mention that another hero comes who can do everything the last hero struggled with better than him and in a period of 2 weeks without training. Also the rogue character went back to being a seedy loner after learning his lesson to open his heart in the previous saga. And etc. That’s my problem with the direction the ST has gone in.

In Greek myth for example, eventually the stories changed for example to being about Zeus and his many sexual exploits and became more like a soap opera. All the gods had slept with each other and were double crossing each other. It was always a family drama at heart too, but it became more small. The myths lost what made them so powerful and became like a tv series to the people, just entertainment, with what made it so immortal before lost.

That’s where Star Wars is heading now, and honestly it’s the natural progression of things so it was going to happen at some point (Although maybe not if Lucas hadn’t sold it). The same thing happens to all religions eventually as well as the core is lost and everything added on top takes importance. And there will be devout followers of the new stuff; but it will never contain the impact of the core message/myth. Less in the PT, and almost nonexistent in the ST. And I mean so many people think of Star Wars as religion anyway.

Just my take on that, but I do understand where you’re coming from and value the fact that you really got into what made it work for you in a deeper sense.

Edit: actually it just struck me that the serial format you’re describing was more prevalent in the PT than anywhere else. The going to planets, battles, moral choices etc. Heck, a lot of the scenes kind of seemed ripped right out of things like that, whether you liked them or not. In terms of pure serialness - Aotc had the most pulpy name as well as the most pulpy things going on like the coruscant chase, the criminal underworld, the diner, the detective solving the mystery, the arena battle, the very ww2 propaganda battle visuals, even small things like how padmes outfit ripped and how she held her gun and the way in which she shot it... very pulpy stuff, whether one considers it well done or not.

Analyzing it from this perspective, you can clearly tell what Lucas was trying to do.

So that scene went from Luke training with boulders to Luke about to throw himself off the cliff? That's quite the 180° change.

Incongruous that he's still wearing Jedi robes.

Haha yup, good catch, that’s a very telling sign. He wasnt wearing that garb for the direction it went in. That’s why he did a costume change so quick.

 

[Prime Clone]

Haha yup, good catch, that’s a very telling sign. He wasnt wearing that garb for the direction it went in. That’s why he did a costume change so quick.

I guess it can be rationalised in terms of committing suicide in Jedi robes to symbolise the end of both himself and the Jedi Order.