Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Dec 15th, 2017)

[DarkChocobi]

So bascially the root of evil all point toward Kathleen Kennedy.

And Sequels are nothing but just the reflection of her ego and feminist propaganda disguised as Star Wars

 

[Asta]

I've seen Apocalypse Now, but I've never read Heart of Darkness. Regardless, what I said applies to history, ideas and what people say and write. Science teaches us that there's an interplay between an abstract model in our heads, and our sensory perception. Language is no different. You have to stipulate terms in order for them to have "meaning", if by "meaning" we say a coherent association that corresponds with our perceptions of the world. Post Modernism is flawed, because it's value based. Value doesn't exist.

Regarding history, it's hearsay in the absence of falsifiable evidence. Its only function is to draw attention to observable phenomenon in our present, regarding the human condition (or ruins from the past...). The rest is anecdotal.

Post modernism is only a means to see things in constant motion. Nothing ever fixed, no longer the old Marxian base and superstructure, but random images, words and thoughts floating in the superstructure. But we have a need to find solid ground, an island amid that sea of signs.

In Heart of Darkness terms 'civilization' is taken to be the solid ground by those enthralled by its illusiory light. By going into the 'darkness' of the wilderness you strip away the blinding light of lies, potential lies, potential truths and half-truths. It forces you to consider everything differently.

And therein you also find old Luke Skywalker hiding away from the universe, demoralized by the lies of the Jedi, and the inability to bring about change because somebody will always rise to dominance with a personal agenda.

And who is he to come back and bring about change? He's like Marlow. How does he know he will do or say the right thing? He's caught in stasis. He couldn't help the resistance for fear of implanting his own potentially flawed ideology on them. He's gone into self-exile to die because he can see no answer. They would have to find their own way, without his potentially dangerous influence.

 

[Niltusk]

I would like to understand more about Rouge One and why it is such a great SW movie recently made.

Because of Gareth Edwars who really understand what is "Star Wars" is and manage to capture the "essence and feeling" ?

Even though RO was produced by Lucasfilm, why does it felt so much different compare with the Sequels ? (not story line). I could see theres almost no "Kathleen vibe" in that movie, except Jyn Erso is a leading actress, but portrayed completely diffrent than MaReySue. Is is because RO is the spin off directly to the ANH, so she wouldn't dare to mess with ? Or is it because is it just the "spin off" so she doesnt care much ?

I also think it had some things that were questionable, as most movies do, but they just wrapped it up very well and made it have that Star Wars feel, new troop types (that still looked like they belong in Star Wars), new ships, enough humor , but plenty of action and loss.

 

[Spazz]

From Den of Geek no less.

Again, it reads like a freshman feminist from Santa Cruz's blog, but no, many of these emanate from major news outlets.

But there's that term yet again - "toxic masculinity." The one that assumes every man is Harvey Weinstein (who feminist icons Meryl Streep and Hillary Clinton adored - Meryl called him "God" in her gushing Oscar acceptance speech, and Hillary attended fundraisers at his house - both apparently having "no idea" the rumors they absolutely had heard were of course true).

The defining days of toxic femininity are most certainly upon us. And there's an awful lot of Patty Hearsts caught up in the tsunami of virtue signalling - all with Stockholm Syndrome coursing through their veins.

The punch line is that Feminists feel that logic is a patriarchal construct, but feel that they're the voice of reason. Because they empathize. I can prove, with absolute certainty that this is dumb:

Empathy and compassion are not the same thing. Empathy simply means to put yourself in someone's shoes. You don't necessarily feel warm and fuzzy about people, when you see the world from their perspective. For instance, there's strategic empathy: Empathizing with an enemy or combatant, to undermine them. Many evolutionary biologists believe that's likely how we developed empathy in the first place, as a species! So all this nonsense about how empathy leads to "smart choices" is a value theory based on NOTHING. Your feelings don't lead to some sort of blueprint telling you how to behave. Feelings are subjective.

Feminism is moronic.

 

[Spazz]

Post modernism is only a means to see things in constant motion. Nothing ever fixed, no longer the old Marxian base and superstructure, but random images, words and thoughts floating in the superstructure. But we have a need to find solid ground, an island amid that sea of signs.

In Heart of Darkness terms 'civilization' is taken to be the solid ground by those enthralled by its illusiory light. By going into the 'darkness' of the wilderness you strip away the blinding light of lies, potential lies, potential truths and half-truths. It forces you to consider everything differently.

And therein you also find old Luke Skywalker hiding away from the universe, demoralized by the lies of the Jedi, and the inability to bring about change because somebody will always rise to dominance with a personal agenda.

And who is he to come back and bring about change? He's like Marlow, how does he know he will do or say the right thing. He's caught in stasis. He couldn't help the resistance for fear of implanting his own ideology on them. They would have to find there own way, without his potentially dangerous influence.

Read the Edit at the end of my previous post to you. Sorry... Should have written it later. There is no "right" because value doesn't exist. That's the problem with Post Modernism. It's a value theory.

 

[Spazz]

Post modernism is only a means to see things in constant motion. Nothing ever fixed, no longer the old Marxian base and superstructure, but random images, words and thoughts floating in the superstructure. But we have a need to find solid ground, an island amid that sea of signs.

In Heart of Darkness terms 'civilization' is taken to be the solid ground by those enthralled by its illusiory light. By going into the 'darkness' of the wilderness you strip away the blinding light of lies, potential lies, potential truths and half-truths. It forces you to consider everything differently.

And therein you also find old Luke Skywalker hiding away from the universe, demoralized by the lies of the Jedi, and the inability to bring about change because somebody will always rise to dominance with a personal agenda.

And who is he to come back and bring about change? He's like Marlow. How does he know he will do or say the right thing? He's caught in stasis. He couldn't help the resistance for fear of implanting his own potentially flawed ideology on them. He's gone into self-exile to die because he can see no answer. They would have to find their own way, without his potentially dangerous influence.

Luke's problem is that he was an idealist. He thought that he lacked value, or was concerned that he was vain in wielding power. I'm not a fan of Nietzsche (despite my Nihilism), but this is what he rightfully referred to as slave morality, denying Luke his will to power. There is no value, there is no obligation, there's no reason to feel guilt or shame. If he wants to make the world a better place, and he did something to make it worse, he should alter his behavior and push the world back into the direction he wants it to go. No need to mope. Did he hurt his nephew? Fix it. His moping is the sort of fruitless introspection that Feminists, ironically, are espousing. Was Luke in touch with his feelings? YES. That was the problem. He needed to get over himself. He couldn't, because he cast a negative value on his own existence.

 

[Asta]

Read the Edit at the end of my previous post to you. Sorry... Should have written it later. There is no "right" because value doesn't exist. That's the problem with Post Modernism. It's a value theory.

Yes. There is no meaning in post modernism. Because everything is in constant flux.

And yes, the defence mechanism is perpetual skepticism. Constant vigilance against being hoodwinked.

Which is why I equate TLJ Luke with Marlow. Im sure this is where Rian was going with this, from the simple premise of Luke being a Conradian outcast who has lost the faith that previously kept him grounded. He realized that the faith was built on lies and false expectations, and he'd been an active part of it. Obi-Wan failed Anakin, Luke failed Ben; the Jedi Order was reactionary and blinded by their own self-importance. Even Yoda says burn the books, because they don't hold the answers.

 

[Asta]

Luke's problem is that he was an idealist. He thought that he lacked value, or was concerned that he was vain in wielding power. I'm not a fan of Nietzsche (despite my Nihilism), but this is what he rightfully referred to as slave morality, denying Luke his will to power. There is no value, there is no obligation, there's no reason to feel guilt or shame. If he wants to make the world a better place, and he did something to make it worse, he should alter his behavior and push the world back into the direction he wants it to go. No need to mope. Did he hurt his nephew? Fix it. His moping is the sort of fruitless introspection that Feminists, ironically, are espousing. Was Luke in touch with his feelings? YES. That was the problem. He needed to get over himself. He couldn't, because he cast a negative value on his own existence.

Yes. That's why I see him caught in stasis. He can't act for fear of doing the wrong thing. Rey desperately tries to make him see things differently. To give purpose back to his life by convincing him that there is a right thing to do. But he no longer has a value system of right and wrong.

Once you've stared into the black pit of despair it's hard to step away from the edge and turn around. And on that island it looked like here was a literal black pit of darkness.

As Khev wrote many pages ago, his final return and death become a poignant moment.

 

[Spazz]

Yes. There is no meaning in post modernism. Because everything is in constant flux.

And yes, the defence mechanism is perpetual skepticism. Constant vigilance against being hoodwinked.

Which is why I equate TLJ Luke with Marlow. Im sure this is where Rian was going with this, from the simple premise of Luke being a Conradian outcast who has lost the faith that previously kept him grounded. He realized that the faith was built on lies and false expectations, and he had been active part of it. Obi-Wan failed Anakin, Luke failed Ben; the Jedi Order was reactionary and blinded by their own self-importance. Even Yoda says burn the books, because rthey don't hold the answers.

How do you know that everything is in constant flux? What epistemology are you appealing to? Logic? Reason? Feelings? I don't mean to sound snarky. It's a legitimate question. You sound like a smart guy, and I don't want you to waste your money and time on a path that, in my opinion, doesn't lead anywhere.

Post-Modernism is riddled with contradictions. It makes truth claims about the absence of truth. It argues that we construct meaning, while claiming that deconstructing is a fruitful pursuit. Whenever you make a claim, you have to have some sort of criteria for what would constitute validity. How does Post Modernism accomplish this? It doesn't. To quote Noam Chomsky, "It's not even false, because it doesn't have a measure for its own validity".

It's true, that everything is in a state of flux. Entropy is a great example. However, "flux" itself is a constant, that can be measured. Remember: Relativity and Objectivity are not opposites. They're intertwined. You need less Godwin, and more Einstein.

I'm not being a jerk here. You said it yourself, that Post Modernism riddled you with anxiety. The reason, is that it didn't help you process information, which should be the entire point of education, right? How do you think, how do you communicate. Where post modernism fails, is not in terms of its skepticism toward certainty. There is no certainty. However, it misunderstands the way knowledge and perception work.

I have an Honors degree in English as well. They dragged me down that rabbit hole, too. Wrote a thesis about how Hamlet predates Bacon's Novum Organum, while at the same time the subtext is about inductive reasoning. Hamlet went mad the moment he failed to look behind the curtain. He stabbed first, asking questions later... That's how he tainted his mind.

 

[TaliBane]

Yes. There is no meaning in post modernism. Because everything is in constant flux.

And yes, the defence mechanism is perpetual skepticism. Constant vigilance against being hoodwinked.

Which is why I equate TLJ Luke with Marlow. Im sure this is where Rian was going with this, from the simple premise of Luke being a Conradian outcast who has lost the faith that previously kept him grounded. He realized that the faith was built on lies and false expectations, and he'd been an active part of it. Obi-Wan failed Anakin, Luke failed Ben; the Jedi Order was reactionary and blinded by their own self-importance. Even Yoda says burn the books, because they don't hold the answers.

He should be saying burn the books because he has no idea what they are - they don't exist in the OT Star Wars universe. NOBODY in the OT uses pens, books or paper - EVER.

 

[Spazz]

Yes. That's why I see him caught in stasis. He can't act for fear of doing the wrong thing. Rey desperately tries to make him see things differently. To give purpose back to his life by convincing him that there is a right thing to do. But he no longer has a value system of right and wrong.

Once you've stared into the black pit of despair it's hard to step away from the edge and turn around. And on that island it looked like here was a literal black pit of darkness.

As Khev wrote many pages ago, his final return and death become a poignant moment.

Oh, Luke had a value system of right and wrong. He just thought that he'd be wrong. That was his problem. He couldn't get over the fact that he made a mistake. He cast value on himself. If Luke was truly without value, Snoke would've died long before Ep. 7 because there is no dark, and there is no light. There's only Force.

 

[Asta]

How do you know that everything is in constant flux? What epistemology are you appealing to? Logic? Reason? Feelings? I don't mean to sound snarky. It's a legitimate question. You sound like a smart guy, and I don't want you to waste your money and time on a path that, in my opinion, doesn't lead anywhere.

Post-Modernism is riddled with contradictions. It makes truth claims about the absence of truth. It argues that we construct meaning, while cl. aiming that deconstructing is a fruitful pursuit. Whenever you make a claim, you have to have some sort of criteria for what would constitute validity. How does Post Modernism accomplish this? It doesn't. To quote Noam Chomsky, "It's not even false, because it doesn't have a measure for its own validity".

It's true, that everything is in a state of flux. Entropy is a great example. However, "flux" itself is a constant, that can be measured. Remember: Relativity and Objectivity are not opposites. They're intertwined. You need less Godwin, and more Einstein.

I'm not being a jerk here. You said it yourself, that Post Modernism riddled you with anxiety. The reason, is that it didn't help you process information, which should be the entire point of education, right? How do you think, how do you communicate. Where post modernism fails, is not in terms of its skepticism toward certainty. There is no certainty. However, it misunderstands the way knowledge and perception work.

I have an Honors degree in English as well. They dragged me down that rabbit hole to. Wrote a thesis about how Hamlet predates Bacon's Novum Organum, while at the same time the subtext is about inductive reasoning. Hamlet went mad the moment he failed to look behind the curtain. He stabbed first, asking questions later... That's how he tainted his mind.

I agree with you. Post modernism is only one theoretical view of looking at things. As I wrote we were impelled to choose a method to look at texts, whether it be Marxist, feminist, psychoanalytic, or whatever. Well, I was finding you couldn't come to any sort of 'truth' about things by employing such methods because they were all fraught with their inherent ideologies.

You would have to put yourself into constant motion as well, adhering to no single ideology. Hence post modernism. You don't follow a single, unchanging path, or fix yourself to a political viewpoint because that's the realm of potential propaganda, misinformation, rigid views and beliefs.

That's how I'm currently seeing Luke and his relationship to the Jedi. He's separated himself from that ordering system. The Jedi Order is no longer the thing that defines his existence. He's found complete freedom in one sense, but without order or direction he can't put his freedom to use.

His vigilance to the danger has left him paralysed.

 

[Spazz]

Which is why I equate TLJ Luke with Marlow. Im sure this is where Rian was going with this, from the simple premise of Luke being a Conradian outcast who has lost the faith that previously kept him grounded. He realized that the faith was built on lies and false expectations, and he'd been an active part of it. Obi-Wan failed Anakin, Luke failed Ben; the Jedi Order was reactionary and blinded by their own self-importance. Even Yoda says burn the books, because they don't hold the answers.

I 100% agree with you that Rian obviously subscribes to Post Modernism. I said a few days ago that when Yoda burns the books because they don't have answers, suggesting that knowledge comes from within, that this (combined with the overt Feminism) was Post-Modernism incarnate. I mean, my thoughts regarding Post Modernism aside, it's obviously there in the movie. Thanks for that. I don't think we're projecting onto the text. I think it's safe to say these were Rian's intentions.

 

[Spazz]

I agree with you. Post modernism is only one theoretical view of looking at things. As I wrote we were impelled to choose a method to look at texts, whether it be Marxist, feminist, psychoanalytic, or whatever. Well, I was finding you couldn't come to any sort of 'truth' about things by employing such methods because they were all frought with their inherent ideologies.

You would have to put yourself into constant motion as well, adhering to no single ideology. Hence post modernism. You don't follow a single, unchanging path, or fix yourself to a political viewpoint because that's the realm of potential propaganda, misinformation, rigid views and beliefs.

That's how I'm currently seeing Luke and his relationship to the Jedi. He's separated himself from that ordering system. The Jedi Order is no longer the thing that defines his existence. He's found complete freedom in one sense, but without order or direction he can't put his freedom to use.

His vigilance to the danger has left him paralysed.

Ideologies are normative. That's the problem. Post Modernists believe the mere fact that perspective changes perception means that there is no objective truth, or evidence of a consistent external environment beyond cognition. That's not true. Ideologies are all completely false, because value doesn't exist. Remove ought from the equation, and everything becomes clear: Different perspectives enrich our understanding of a coherent thing, rather than contradicting other perceptions. The world is filled with constants when you remove value from the equation. Communication is intelligible and functional, when you remove value from the equation.

Also, I'm available for weddings and birthday parties. I'm here all night.

 

[Asta]

Oh, Luke had a value system of right and wrong. He just thought that he'd be wrong. That was his problem. He couldn't get over the fact that he made a mistake. He cast value on himself. If Luke was truly without value, Snoke would've died long before Ep. 7 because there is no dark, and there is no light. There's only Force.

That's correct. I didn't word that right. What I was going for was this his sense of right and wrong is out of step with the 'typical' value system.

To Rey it's a simple matter that Luke should do the right thing and help them. Because that's what a traditional hero would do, and it was clear there was an enemy who were in the wrong.

Luke doesn't have that cut and dried value system any more. Because, as you said, he's afraid he'd do the wrong thing. He's no longer able to mentally of physically put himself back into a suituation where he would make things even worse.

On the other sde Kylo is feeling a similar way as Luke about the Jedi: destroy them. But for completely different reasons. Luke has lost all ambition, and is content to live off the sea like a monk who's taken a vow not to get involved in the world beyond the monastery walls. Kylo has too much ambition.

 

[Spazz]

That's correct. I didn't word that right. What I was going for was this his sense of right and wrong is out of step with the 'typical' value system.

To Rey it's a simple matter that Luke should do the right thing and help them. Because that's what a traditional hero would do, and it was clear there was an enemy who were in the wrong.

Luke doesn't have that cut and dried value system any more. Because, as you said, he's afraid he'd do the wrong thing. He's no longer able to mentally of physically put himself back into a suituation where he would make things even worse.

On the other sde Kylo is feeling a similar way as Luke about the Jedi: destroy them. But for completely different reasons. Luke has lost all ambition, and is content to live off the sea like a monk who's taken a vow not to get involved in the world beyond the monastery walls. Kylo has too much ambition.

Where you and I agree then, is that TLJ depicts an existential crisis (both Luke and Kylo's), equating it with Toxic Masculinity. Would you agree?

 

[TaliBane]

Wow - some interesting reading these last couple of pages.

Not often you can say you're learning things from reading SSF.

 

[greygoose]

Finally saw this yesterday. Whilst it has it flaws I thought overall it was a brilliant movie. Definitely need to see it again to process it all. I feel sorry for the guys on the Internet who feel the need to spread the hate, maybe Star Wars as an expanded franchise isn't for them.

 

[Asta]

Ideologies are normative. That's the problem. Post Modernists believe the mere fact that perspective changes perception means that there is no objective truth, or evidence of a consistent external environment beyond cognition. That's not true. Ideologies are all completely false, because value doesn't exist. Remove ought from the equation, and everything becomes clear: Different perspectives enrich our understanding of a coherent thing, rather than contradicting other perceptions. The world is filled with constants when you remove value from the equation. Communication is intelligible and functional, when you remove value from the equation.

Also, I'm available for weddings and birthday parties. I'm here all night.

Post modernism can never find the answer, otherwise it negates itself.

In order to live we have to settle on certain constants. But post modernism teaches us to avoid dogma, or in the case of Marlow/Luke avoid being dogmatic. Avoid asserting 'truths', and allow others to find them for themselves (otherwise how will they know they weren't being lied to).

And that's the thing I really detest about party politics. Life is a myriad of choices, of possible rights and wrongs, and each individual comes to their own understanding based on personal experience.

But a party has whips to 'strongly encourage', even blackmail or bribe its members to vote a certain way regardless of their actual beliefs.

Whether it be First Order or Jedi Order each has a dogmatic position. In TLJ the latter was presumably laid down in those books. Luke comments they weren't "page turners"; Yoda says burn them.

'Truth' isn't laid down in fixed ideology, because real world problems have to be handled on a case by case basis.

 

[Spazz]

Luke has lost all ambition, and is content to live off the sea like a monk who's taken a vow not to get involved in the world beyond the monastery walls. Kylo has too much ambition.

I would argue that the film equates ambition with Toxic Masculinity. Luke wanted to be virtuous, so he remained idle in his vanity. Kylo wanted to be Powerful, so he was cruel in his vanity. Even Poe wanted to be heroic, so he was short-sighted in his vanity. The movie implies that Toxic Masculinity is about self-perception. Men do horrible things in trying to be AWESOME. Women, on the other hand, are enlightened because of their "empathy". When you do things for others, putting yourself aside, it leads to the right path.

That's a very subservient outlook, particularly when authoritarian regimes demand self-sacrifice. "You don't want to obey? That's because of your Toxic Masculinity. Your ambition. You should submit, and bend to the will of society for the good of the community."