Student Goes Off At Teacher About Education

[freestylex06x]

There's an inherent flaw in your thought process if you believe that money (and the power that it creates) is made at the expense of others. A country this rich didn't get through exploitation and theft. Money has never fixed schools in poor areas, and I doubt it ever will.

lol at this. of course this country got rich via exploitation and theft. of course, other factors were at play, but we have always lived in a zero sum world where exploitation and theft is needed to obtain power and wealth. a basic elementary school education highlights this fact.

money has not always fixed poor schools, but it has vastly improved them. you are deluding yourself if you don't think money is the most important factor in improving poor area schools. how else would you attract better teachers, better equipment, and facilities that promote better learning?

 

[Iggyrox]

A country this rich didn't get through exploitation and theft. Money has never fixed schools in poor areas, and I doubt it ever will.

REEEEALLY.....

 

[siquisiri]

There's an inherent flaw in your thought process if you believe that money (and the power that it creates) is made at the expense of others. A country this rich didn't get through exploitation and theft. Money has never fixed schools in poor areas, and I doubt it ever will.

There is??
You obviously didnt get my point. That point being that standardized test results are invalid, because they do not take socio-economic factors into consideration and how those socio-economic factors impact student test performance.

 

[karamazov80]

There is??
You obviously didnt get my point. That point being that standardized test results are invalid, because they do not take socio-economic factors into consideration and how those socio-economic factors impact student test performance.

I know this argument, and don't really buy it. The only socio-economic issues that would cause mass discrepancies in standardized test results is the fact that the poor don't get properly educated, or aren't able to be properly educated, vs. the less poor. I've taken enough of the damn things in my life to know. Reading comprehension, math, and logic aren't things that only apply to certain cultures. Unless folks just don't exercise their brains doing those things. You may have a couple of math examples involving some form of transportation the poor aren't familiar with (how long it takes for a train to arrive at a depot or whatever), or you may have a reading comprehension example dealing with something they don't encounter very much (a story about someone selling fresh produce), but that's not going to make these students fail miserably.

 

[karamazov80]

Having said that, I totally disagree with devil's argument about exploitation. Unless you want to completely ignore what happened to the native Americans by our European forefathers, and the industrial revolution, slavery, cheap Chinese labor, etc. Exploitation is sometimes a necessary precondition to economic success. Why do you think that's a bad thing? "Greed, for lack of a better word, is good!"

 

[The Josh]

The current way standardized tests are done is a bit of a joke. I think the thought needs to be take back the drawing board and tweaked. Its one of those its a nice thought but it needs work.

 

[siquisiri]

I know this argument, and don't really buy it. The only socio-economic issues that would cause mass discrepancies in standardized test results is the fact that the poor don't get properly educated, or aren't able to be properly educated, vs. the less poor. I've taken enough of the damn things in my life to know. Reading comprehension, math, and logic aren't things that only apply to certain cultures. Unless folks just don't exercise their brains doing those things. You may have a couple of math examples involving some form of transportation the poor aren't familiar with (how long it takes for a train to arrive at a depot or whatever), or you may have a reading comprehension example dealing with something they don't encounter very much (a story about someone selling fresh produce), but that's not going to make these students fail miserably.

You DONT BUY it?? Ive seen this firsthand. Ive taught high school history for over 16 years In 2 highs schools. One in a more affluent area , the other in a a less affluent area. Believe me, the difference is staggering. The variation in student performance, behavior, test results, etc, is incredible.

 

[karamazov80]

You DONT BUY it?? Ive seen this firsthand. Ive taught high school history for over 16 years In 2 highs schools. One in a more affluent area , the other in a a less affluent area. Believe me, the difference is staggering. The variation in student performance, behavior, test results, etc, is incredible.

I don't dispute that at all. Of course the poor suck at standardized tests and all those other things you bring up. But I don't attribute it to the test being biased. I attribute it to really two things: 1) a faulty education system that doesn't provide equal educational opportunities to poor students; and 2) a culture of the poor that doesn't value education. These factors are both significantly affected themselves by broader socio-economic and educational factors. So it's really a negative cycle. These kids don't get opportunities because their parents, communities, and schools reinforce the status quo.

The test results are still pretty dang valid indicators of success in school, jobs, etc.

 

[devilof76]

Sounds about right. But I won't call employment exploitation, nor will I place significant value on the waste of resources that slavery engendered. (I'm not touching the native american issue.)

lol at this. of course this country got rich via exploitation and theft. of course, other factors were at play, but we have always lived in a zero sum world where exploitation and theft is needed to obtain power and wealth. a basic elementary school education highlights this fact.

Lol, right back at you. There is no zero sum game involved. A basic elementary school education lied to you if you're clinging to this idea.

money has not always fixed poor schools, but it has vastly improved them. you are deluding yourself if you don't think money is the most important factor in improving poor area schools. how else would you attract better teachers, better equipment, and facilities that promote better learning?

How much exactly do they need to be paid to offset the damage done by the culture the extremely poor exist in?

REEEEALLY.....

Really. Educate me sagely one.

There is??
You obviously didnt get my point. That point being that standardized test results are invalid, because they do not take socio-economic factors into consideration and how those socio-economic factors impact student test performance.

I'm not sure how that invalidates them. Sounds to me like they're accurately reflecting the reality that kids aren't learning in poor school districts, and that the socio-economic factors are the cause.

Which is not to say that more money for schools is the answer. The effect of poverty on homelife is far more significant. It doesn't take a fortune to educate a child, unless that child is severely disadvantaged by their surroundings. At that point, I doubt any level of investment will change the problem. It hasn't done a damn bit of good to change the culture when it comes to housing, food, etc.

 

[siquisiri]

The current way standardized tests are done is a bit of a joke. I think the thought needs to be take back the drawing board and tweaked. Its one of those its a nice thought but it needs work.

I agree 100%. At the same time though, i still think we need to come up with some way to gauge student and teacher performance. what that is??? We still dont know.

Unfortunately, the current trend to focus on standardized test results
and teacher/student performance is a VERY political one tied to the destruction of public schools, privatization, charters, and anti-unionization.

 

[thenammagazine]

I know this argument, and don't really buy it. The only socio-economic issues that would cause mass discrepancies in standardized test results is the fact that the poor don't get properly educated, or aren't able to be properly educated, vs. the less poor. I've taken enough of the damn things in my life to know. Reading comprehension, math, and logic aren't things that only apply to certain cultures. Unless folks just don't exercise their brains doing those things. You may have a couple of math examples involving some form of transportation the poor aren't familiar with (how long it takes for a train to arrive at a depot or whatever), or you may have a reading comprehension example dealing with something they don't encounter very much (a story about someone selling fresh produce), but that's not going to make these students fail miserably.

Horse****. Hop off that rich vs. poor soapbox and actually try teaching a remedial class for a day. See the attitude you have to deal with when trying to put out the information needed. The education is the same, it's the peers that are different and actually influence what's learned. Remember the teacher who wrote word problems using drugs as the subject? Your examples don't work and are unacceptable. The "poor" are no different than the rich when it comes to learning.

 

[devilof76]

If you take into consideration how much attention has been placed on improving the self-esteem of students in poor districts as a misguided way of improving their ability to read, write and do math, I think he has a point. You don't see that pedagogy in suburban schools because it's putting the cart before the horse, and wealthier districts know that. They didn't get rich by people telling them they're just as good as everyone else. They got rich by learning how.

 

[karamazov80]

Horse****. Hop off that rich vs. poor soapbox and actually try teaching a remedial class for a day. See the attitude you have to deal with when trying to put out the information needed. The education is the same, it's the peers that are different and actually influence what's learned. Remember the teacher who wrote word problems using drugs as the subject? Your examples don't work and are unacceptable. The "poor" are no different than the rich when it comes to learning.

I don't get your argument Nam. I don't disagree that peers affect learning. That fits perfectly into my argument. But there is a culture among the poor that doesn't value education, or behavior conducive to learning. You are disagreeing with this? If so, then how do you explain why schools filled with the poor fail consistently everywhere across the country, while schools filled with the rich succeed consistently everywhere across the country? I'm sure teaching slow rich kids would be hard, and they won't always succeed. But if you look at standardized tests the well off are generally not slow relative to the poor. Are you arguing that the poor are genetically inferior to the more well off?

 

[thenammagazine]

I don't get your argument Nam. I don't disagree that peers affect learning. That fits perfectly into my argument. But there is a culture among the poor that doesn't value education, or behavior conducive to learning. You are disagreeing with this? If so, then how do you explain why schools filled with the poor fail consistently everywhere across the country, while schools filled with the rich succeed consistently everywhere across the country? I'm sure teaching slow rich kids would be hard, and they won't succeed. But if you look at standardized tests the well off are generally not slow relative to the poor. Are you arguing that the poor are genetically inferior to the more well off?

But that's a parental issue. Not an educational one. Kid gets home and hangs out with his friends until 3am, comes home high, drunk, or at the least, exhausted. No parent enforce the proper behavior nor put the value into them doing their homework, studying, etc., and they're not going to pay attention in class with the brain being jello. And the parent's excuse? "I work all day and I'm tired." Boo ****ing hooo, should've thought about that before bringing a life into this world. But this also happens with rich kids too. For every "poor kid" who fails, there's an idiot rich kid failing as well because their parents don't care either and are so business-oriented and/or self absorbed to pay attention. Stop trying to blame the rich for problems that start at home.

On the flip side, I have friends who grew up in 3rd-world poverty (a concept this country has no clue of), whose parents pretty much beat them if if they didn't pay attention in school. One's a millionaire now and he's not yet finished his degree. Go figure.

 

[siquisiri]

I'm not sure how that invalidates them. Sounds to me like they're accurately reflecting the reality that kids aren't learning in poor school districts, and that the socio-economic factors are the cause.

Which is not to say that more money for schools is the answer. The effect of poverty on homelife is far more significant. It doesn't take a fortune to educate a child, unless that child is severely disadvantaged by their surroundings. At that point, I doubt any level of investment will change the problem. It hasn't done a damn bit of good to change the culture when it comes to housing, food, etc.

Your hitting the nail on the head as to WHY these tests results ARE invalid. You cant fairly gauge student results equally using the same method and have repercussions like state take over of the school or teacher dismissals based on these results.
It IS a poverty issue. Students with a lower socio-economic status are at an extreme disadvantage compared to those who are not. How can you judge schools or teachers ineffective due to low standardized test results from students that have little to no interaction with their family due to them working 2-3 jobs? no food on the table? etc...

 

[karamazov80]

Nam, never once did I blame it all on the schools. Nor am I blaming it exclusively on the "haves," though they play a role. This is a complex issue. I know you think in absolutes so you'll never agree with me when I say that, but. . .

And of course, you will have rare exceptions of the destitute who go on to become rich and famous. You'll also have rare exceptions of kids born into privilege who squander it all away. But why are they the rare exceptions? Economic and social constraints/facilitators.

 

[thenammagazine]

Nam, never once did I blame it all on the schools. Nor am I blaming it exclusively on the "haves," though they play a role. This is a complex issue. I know you think in absolutes so you'll never agree with me when I say that, but. . .

And of course, you will have rare exceptions of the destitute who go on to become rich and famous. You'll also have rare exceptions of kids born into privilege who squander it all away. But why are they the rare exceptions?

It's not the "haves" at all. If the value of earning something isn't taught before school, it can't be taught AT school. It's as simple as that. You're expecting teachers to be parents. That's the major problem with society today. Parents are throwing most (and sometimes all) of their responsibility at the schools and then blaming them when their failure of a child shows zero progress. If a demographic exists, that's not because of money, and it's not because of environmental issues/circumstances. You will always be able to trace it right back to the home.

 

[siquisiri]

"A culture among the poor who don't value education?" WTF??
Its not that they don't value it my friend, it that that they have more concerns in front of them, like feeding the family, balancing 2-3 jobs, etc.....

 

[karamazov80]

You're trying to make me out as a straw man Nam, but it's just not accurate. I never made the argument that schools can solve all of our ills. I do think they can be improved and can help move the needle a bit. I think educating families about proper parenting can also help. But really, unless those families develop new cultural norms of behavior and expectations things won't change.

 

[devilof76]

Your hitting the nail on the head as to WHY these tests results ARE invalid. You cant fairly gauge student results equally using the same method and have repercussions like state take over of the school or teacher dismissals based on these results.
It IS a poverty issue. Students with a lower socio-economic status are at an extreme disadvantage compared to those who are not. How can you judge schools or teachers ineffective due to low standardized test results from students that have little to no interaction with their family due to them working 2-3 jobs? no food on the table? etc...

I'm hitting the nail on the head as to why they aren't invalid. The schools that are failing ARE failing, and the tests reflect that.

Are you suggesting a way of evaluating them that isn't based on their performance, so that they can come out of the schools deaf and dumb with the same credibility as the students who are graduating intellectually competent?