Statue Sucker Punch 1/4 Scale Statues by Gentle Giant

[cr`]

Never saw Wachowski style in 300, or Watchmen. Slow motion isn't exactly an innovation.

the wachowskis's style is not just the slo-mo. they brought along a very precise anime/comic book panel sensibility in storyboarding their actions, a philosophy that was later followed by snyder in designing his actions, still also apparent in sucker punch.

What Matrix lacked was unity. Style is an integrator, and Matrix was anything but integrated. What it had for style was self-indulgent and clumsy. Single scenes stand out against the whole. On top of that, the story had zero vision of where it was going when it began, and copped out with a "heroism is sacrifice" climax, replete with cruciform protagonist and whispers of resurrection before the whole cluster____ was through.

"zero vision of where it was going"? i thought matrix started with great confidence from the first opening scene and never let up. i felt confident at all time that a good captain was at the helm guiding us all the way through.

you know what stood out against the whole? the scenes in 300 that was not in the book, eg. the queen golgo subplot; nixon's big nose; rorschach's superhuman jump. anything snyder added by his own always ended up distracting rather than complementing the original materials.

If you watch 300, you'll notice that the word sacrifice is not used once to describe the actions of the Spartan soldiers. There was no messianic BS. There was no peace treaty. There was no compromise in the face of impossible odds. There were 300 men who knew that to defend their lives and freedom, they had to fight. They weren't giving anything up so that others may live; they were fighting for what was theirs. If you want to use conventional terminology, what motivated the Spartans was greed, selfishness, ego, pride. There was no sense that conflict could only be overcome by sacrifice. They had no intention of sacrificing what was theirs, and the only reason they died was because they were betrayed. If sacrifice was their great virtue, they would have just sent the earth and water in the first place.

doesnt matter if the word "SACRIFICE" is mentioned or not, it STILL IS A SACRIFICE. leonidas and his pals DIED FOR SOMETHING, didnt they? call it for ego, for glory, or for love and honor(in the case of sincity), whatever... it still is a sacrifice, and betrayed or no, they know the odds are against them from the start. you painted yourself into a corner when you said "sacrifice is nihillistic", hence this spin circles. dont worry, you can take it back. no need to spin further to make your point sounds more valid because it doesnt.

Sin City ended with the hero yielding. His universe was too evil for him to believe a hero could do anything but lose. Stand Hartigan next to Leonidas and you tell me which one stood, and which one fell (if you can tell the difference). I'm sure Miller would agree: only one of those men was actually defeated.

i thought they both fell, but maybe i just watched a different movie. ok, i got your point, hartigan willingly killed himself while leo only fell because he was betrayed. but you only think hartigan had lost, hartigan himself might disagree with you. leo and hartigan share the same belief that their lives are worth sacrificing for a higher ideal, freedom and love respectively. and if these guys believe they could achieve that higher ideal by dying, you think they would see themselves as losers? you think?

 

[devilof76]

The Matrix was perfectly cohesive and innovative and the movie utilised references from hacker and cyberpunk subcultures with overtones of religion, while paying homage to gaming culture, sci-fi, fairytales, Hong Kong cinema, Westerns, dystopian fiction, and Japanime. It was refreshing and sounds like you may just have a bias against revelations.

Revelations? Psychologize much?

Matrix bored me to tears. And it was lame. Centipede on a thousand crutches lame. Acting, dialogue, basic premise (this one especially). You know what? The special effects were great. Nothing all that special, but a fine use of new tech.

The first movie was integrated; I will give you that. The problem is when it tries to become two, and then three movies (which it had to, since the first didn't finish the story).

Xerxes said to Leonidas "There will be no glory in your sacrifice"

Ah. The inbred god-king. Wouldn't you expect that from him? They can never tell the difference.

Can't wait to see more of this movie.

Me too.

the wachowskis's style is not just the slo-mo. they brought along a very precise anime/comic book panel sensibility in storyboarding their actions, a philosophy that was later followed by snyder in designing his actions, still also apparent in sucker punch.

So their innovation in film was to copy comic books? You know what innovation means, right?

"zero vision of where it was going"? i thought matrix started with great confidence from the first opening scene and never let up. i felt confident at all time that a good captain was at the helm guiding us all the way through.

Really? This enthusiasm includes the second and third movies? Because it's clear that the first movie was about Neo being The One, but I'll be damned if anything else was clear after that. Some good fights though.

you know what stood out against the whole? the scenes in 300 that was not in the book, eg. the queen golgo subplot; nixon's big nose; rorschach's superhuman jump. anything snyder added by his own always ended up distracting rather than complementing the original materials.

I understand. You don't like him. I haven't read 300, or Watchmen, and his additions were lost on me. Never even noticed. I suppose some of Gorgo's dialogue was delivered a bit clumsily, but that's minor.

doesnt matter if the word "SACRIFICE" is mentioned or not, it STILL IS A SACRIFICE. leonidas and his pals DIED FOR SOMETHING, didnt they? call it for ego, for glory, or for love and honor(in the case of sincity), whatever... it still is a sacrifice, and betrayed or no, they know the odds are against them from the start. you painted yourself into a corner when you said "sacrifice is nihillistic", hence this spin circles. dont worry, you can take it back. no need to spin further to make your point sounds more valid because it doesnt.

If a man exchanges a thing he values less than what he trades it for, he has made a profit. If a man exchanges something he values more for something he values less, he has made a sacrifice.

You work it out. If my explanation is inadequate, you can always ask Immanuel Kant. He knows it better than I do.

leo and hartigan share the same belief that their lives are worth sacrificing for a higher ideal, freedom and love respectively. and if these guys believe they could achieve that higher ideal by dying, you think they would see themselves as losers? you think?

What did Hartigan gain by dying? I think he lost it all. Hence, his actions were a sacrifice.

Leonidas marched to what was potentially his death so that he could preserve his life. He never relented. Ultimately, his actions served to achieve the end which he had pursued. Sparta was saved from Persia. He got what he wanted, even if he had to pay the ultimate price for it.

Dying for something is not the essential characteristic of a sacrifice.

 

[cr`]

So their innovation in film was to copy comic books? You know what innovation means, right?

i didnt even use that word, "innovation". you're trying to put words in my mouth now? but what's wrong with getting a comic book perspective in designing actions for your film? if the end result makes the film look fresh, and not the same old same old... why the hell not?

now, if you want to talk about matrix's "innovation", it would be the bullet time, AND getting the actors to do their own demanding physical stunts(not exactly a new concept in hongkong cinema, but it was new way of thinking in hollywood then). following matrix, every actors in hollywood want to do their own stunts, because hey... if keanu did it but you dont, then might as well call yourself a *****, right? that's why you got cruise doing his own stunts in m:i, matt damon in bourne, butler in 300, and even all the girls(thurman, theron, beckinsale, etc) and kids(kick-ass's moretz) are now doing 3-4 months martial arts prep up before shooting even begins... just so keanu doesnt make them look like *****.

Really? This enthusiasm includes the second and third movies? Because it's clear that the first movie was about Neo being The One, but I'll be damned if anything else was clear after that. Some good fights though.

here's what i think of the trilogy: if the first film is an A.I. robot, the second and third are washing machine - big, loud, and clunky. so please tear down the 2nd and 3rd film to your heart's content.

If a man exchanges a thing he values less than what he trades it for, he has made a profit. If a man exchanges something he values more for something he values less, he has made a sacrifice.

You work it out. If my explanation is inadequate, you can always ask Immanuel Kant. He knows it better than I do.

obviously hartigan valued nancy's life more than his, that's why he chose to end his for hers. i thought that point is as clear as the sky is blue in the film. no idea who immanuel kant is though.

What did Hartigan gain by dying? I think he lost it all. Hence, his actions were a sacrifice.

Leonidas marched to what was potentially his death so that he could preserve his life. He never relented. Ultimately, his actions served to achieve the end which he had pursued. Sparta was saved from Persia. He got what he wanted, even if he had to pay the ultimate price for it.

Dying for something is not the essential characteristic of a sacrifice.

hartigan "lost it all"? did we even watch the same movie??? nancy lives, doesnt she? that's what hartigan always wanted, isnt it? to protect her because she's the only thing in his life that's worth anything.

he gained by dying. same as leonidas. both gained what they wanted by paying it with their lives. i see no difference in the sacrifice of the two men. at. all.

 

[devilof76]

Hartigan did not need to die. That was what made his death a sacrifice. Leonidas did not have the choice, but if he didn't take the chance, he would have allowed everything he valued to be lost (which would have been a sacrifice).

And didn't fuzzy just state that bullet time originated in Akira? Was the innovation bringing it to film? Meh. I still don't see how it's anything more than slow motion with better tools.

I still don't see how any of this suggests that Sucker Punch is destined to be crap.

 

[Something Sexy]

Matrix 2 and 3 suck. Sucker Punch looks good.

 

[cr`]

Hartigan did not need to die. That was what made his death a sacrifice. Leonidas did not have the choice, but if he didn't take the chance, he would have allowed everything he valued to be lost (which would have been a sacrifice).

and leonidas could tuck his tail and run home. both men did what they thought was necessary to get what they wanted. leonidas didnt see any other option, neither did hartigan. it's as simple as 1+1=2 to me.

And didn't fuzzy just state that bullet time originated in Akira? Was the innovation bringing it to film? Meh. I still don't see how it's anything more than slow motion with better tools.

well obviously i disagree with fuzzy, no disrespect to him. doing slo-mo in animation is just a matter of using and shooting more animation cells; to achieve bullet time effect in film required an "innovation" in film tech. and if the tech guys who are working in the field call it an "innovation", i think the effect deserved that label. somehow i just dont believe you know better than those guys.

I still don't see how any of this suggests that Sucker Punch is destined to be crap.

oh we're back to talking about sucker punch now? i thought the topic is about tearing down certified cool films.

 

[fuzzylojiks]

And didn't fuzzy just state that bullet time originated in Akira? Was the innovation bringing it to film? Meh. I still don't see how it's anything more than slow motion with better tools.

'Bullet time' originated from the Matrix, the director/codirector of Akira who came up with it was working on the Matrix at that time.

 

[devilof76]

Ok. I'm not a student of film in any way, shape or form and I have no vocabulary for cinematography. I know Aristotle's Poetics, and that's about it. What is it that makes bullet time more than a slow motion technique?

and leonidas could tuck his tail and run home. both men did what they thought was necessary to get what they wanted. leonidas didnt see any other option, neither did hartigan. it's as simple as 1+1=2 to me.

Had Leonidas yielded, he would have sacrificed everything. Had Hartigan chose to live in the world where he had just saved everything that was worth anything to him, he would have been Leonidas' equal. Instead, he chose oblivion. The big nothing. He sacrificed everything. That's nihilist.

well obviously i disagree with fuzzy, no disrespect to him. doing slo-mo in animation is just a matter of using and shooting more animation cells; to achieve bullet time effect in film required an "innovation" in film tech. and if the tech guys who are working in the field call it an "innovation", i think the effect deserved that label. somehow i just dont believe you know better than those guys.

I see. That does deserve credit.

oh we're back to talking about sucker punch now? i thought the topic is about tearing down certified cool films.

I can understand why people think the Matrix is cool. I don't. Sin City and Watchmen were cool. Just not as cool as 300, and I have high hopes that they won't be as cool as Sucker Punch either. That has been my point from the start.

Matrix = not cool
Sucker Punch = already cooler than Matrix

Also, 300 >>>>>>> Matrix

 

[cr`]

insistent to the very end. fine, have it your way... sucker punch, a film you have not seen, is cooler than the matrix, a film already established as a genre classic. you're not only a student of aristotle, but apparently a student of nostradamus as well.

 

[Something Sexy]

insistent to the very end. fine, have it your way... sucker punch, a film you have not seen, is cooler than the matrix, a film already established as a genre classic. you're not only a student of aristotle, but apparently a student of nostradamus as well.

Ehhhhh, maybe if they stopped at 1 but the second they made 2 and 3 the series as a whole dropped big time.

 

[IrishJedi]

These kinds of nerd debates make me want to eat glass.

 

[devilof76]

If I'd known it would be a debate, I would never have opened my mouth.

 

[Karma]

there is a thread in the film section for this debate

 

[grphyx1]

there should totally be a sorta video conference so all yaz can hash these things out without the delay time. Maybe a once a week Skype Bash

 

[The ill Jedi]

These kinds of nerd debates make me want to eat glass.

there is a thread in the film section for this debate

 

[The ill Jedi]

I want to give a shout out to my boy Darth Waller for ordering Babydoll from Gentle Giant for me, with a discount no less!

Thanks dude!

 

[cr`]

Ehhhhh, maybe if they stopped at 1 but the second they made 2 and 3 the series as a whole dropped big time.

does the existence of godfather 3 make godfather 1 and 2 any less great?

These kinds of nerd debates make me want to eat glass.

you know what make me want to eat glass? well, nothing actually. i'm not a masochist. but i know what makes me want to grind my teeth - a nerd who cant contain himself but keep on bragging when they got an insider info about a film.

really, i think we all got the point by now.

If I'd known it would be a debate, I would never have opened my mouth.

but what's a geek without a big mouth?

 

[IrishJedi]

I want to give a shout out to my boy Darth Waller for ordering Babydoll from Gentle Giant for me, with a discount no less!

Thanks dude!

but i know what makes me want to grind my teeth - a nerd who cant contain himself but keep on bragging when they got an insider info about a film.

really, i think we all got the point by now.

I haven't "bragged", you teabag. I've merely shared information. Now, if I said "I'm officially working for Legendary Pictures and Cruel & Unusual Films as part their PR and viral marketing team, and not just for Sucker Punch." in each and every post (as you imply) that would be bragging. But since is the first time I've actually typed those words...

Now, less posturing... more pics:

 

[The ill Jedi]

I wonder if the bases will be clear on the final product or if they'll be the standard black base that GG always uses?

 

[Darth Waller]

I want to give a shout out to my boy Darth Waller for ordering Babydoll from Gentle Giant for me, with a discount no less!

Thanks dude!

Anytime, my friend!