The Alien Franchise Discussion

[Zurdo95D]

 

[abake]

This is just pure gold...

 

[jinkazama]

This is just pure gold...

 

[Rotfish]

Don't think this was shared here, but this was a fascinating (and infuriating, honestly) story from the writers of one of Alien 3's scripts. Probably the most candid and in-depth look we'll ever get at the conflicts behind Alien 3.

Pickett paints Giler and Hill in a pretty terrible light (there's also an interesting bit about a disgruntled line producer who shares a private letter with them after being fired, which turns out to be a molotov) and if this is all true, I can't fathom the frustration Fincher must have felt working on the film. Imagine being brought onto a project like this at age 25 and despite your reservations about the scope and power dynamics at play, you take it because you love the franchise -- then your project is sabotaged by people who care infinitely more about stroking their egos and spiting their perceived enemies. No wonder the man doesn't want to talk about it.



The story starts at 19:20.

 

[a-dev]

Hmmm. The troubles of Alien 3 are so legendary that they're still talked about today and its reputation as this awful film persists - especially by people who worked on it and got burned by it. Here's the thing though, it's a masterclass of a film compared to pretty much everything in the franchise that followed. I'd contend that it has infinitely more worth than Alien Resurrection and certainly the AvP films. But no one brings those films up at all to talk about them at such length so many years later and in such dour terms. As the Scarlett Witch meme says - ''that doesn't seem fair''.

 

[Rotfish]

Hmmm. The troubles of Alien 3 are so legendary that they're still talked about today and its reputation as this awful film persists - especially by people who worked on it and got burned by it. Here's the thing though, it's a masterclass of a film compared to pretty much everything in the franchise that followed. I'd contend that it has infinitely more worth than Alien Resurrection and certainly the AvP films. But no one brings those films up at all to talk about them in such dour terms. As the Scarlett Witch meme says - ''that doesn't seem fair''.

That's an interesting observation. I'd venture it's because Alien 3 is the first of the "bad ones." The franchise was phenomenal until that point, so expectations were higher than they've ever been since. Well, that and it's the one that kills Newt and Hicks.

I think AVP-R is insultingly terrible, and while I'm certainly not alone in my disdain for it, the most common criticism isn't that the story is a generic slasher rehash with annoying teenagers we're happy to see die -- it's that the film is too dark. You know what? I could honestly forgive the darkness if the script wasn't so unimaginative. It's a real testament to the different ways fans regard these franchises; folks like me might be considered snobs for wanting these to be good movies while the so-called "fans" who directed AVP-R think the only thing holding the previous film back from greatness was the lack of an R-rating and heavy gore.

 

[ironwez20]

I thought alien 3 was pretty cool. Could be better but alien resurrection was disgusting and I never want to watch it again. Such a gross movie

 

[JAWS]

Hmmm. The troubles of Alien 3 are so legendary that they're still talked about today and its reputation as this awful film persists - especially by people who worked on it and got burned by it. Here's the thing though, it's a masterclass of a film compared to pretty much everything in the franchise that followed. I'd contend that it has infinitely more worth than Alien Resurrection and certainly the AvP films. But no one brings those films up at all to talk about them at such length so many years later and in such dour terms. As the Scarlett Witch meme says - ''that doesn't seem fair''.

Agree 100%

However I hated it with my first viewing also. Had more to do with what they did to the characters we loved in Aliens than the film itself.

The more I watched it thought the better it kept getting. It’s got some beautiful shots and great performances. It’s a dark miserable film that is impossible to have fun with like the previous 2 films. But that’s kinda what makes it great.

I much prefer the producers cut and feel this is just a few mat lines removal away from being an almost perfect film…For what it is. An alternate timeline to Aliens.

My Alien story truly ends with Aliens but I can detach my viewing experience of Alien 3 from the other two films and love it as it is.

I do the same with the 2 prequel films which I can enjoy but A3 is far better.

Alien and Aliens are truly 5 star classics it’s hard to follow that up. RS opened the world with a perfect introduction and JC truly ended that franchise with a perfect ending.

 

[JAWS]

What are these AVP films people keep referring to??

 

[MeatHookGekko]

That's an interesting observation. I'd venture it's because Alien 3 is the first of the "bad ones." The franchise was phenomenal until that point, so expectations were higher than they've ever been since. Well, that and it's the one that kills Newt and Hicks.

I believe Alien 3 would have been a very interesting limited TV series. Obviously in the early 90's, the SFX, structure, logistics and format just didn't support something like that, not at the kind of visual level expected of the Alien franchise.

You have a lot of characters, and they all look alike ( shaved heads, wearing rags, middle aged white guys, etc, etc) Then it's dark. And it's nihilist. That's just too much to dump on an audience in a couple of hours. I don't see Alien 3 as as bad story, just an abbreviated one given the circumstances. Give this 13 hours, a limited "prestige" TV series, with a lot of character development plus decent homage to Newt and Hicks and then you might have something really special. If you have more time to develop more of the prisoner characters, you have a better chance to help the audience feel the total loss and hopelessness. Also flashbacks to the Sulaco would allow a proper send off to Hicks and Newt, or a story workaround, that honors them and organically removes them from the prison storyline. It would also help to create some merchandising potential and spin offs as well.

Charles Dance, Charles Dutton and Ralph Brown all had interesting characters. Just not fleshed out. A TV series could explore why they are there and why it matters to save the hopeless.

Some stories just don't fit the format it's given. Enders Game is an incredible story. Maybe one of the best modern science fiction novels ever written. However you can't fit that into a single movie. You'd need multiple season of high level prestige television to even begin to do it justice.

Alien 3, from a narrative standpoint, was only going to work if it centered around Newt. In order for the sacrifice of so many lives to save her ( remember the Aliens mission was effectively a rescue mission as well) to mean something, her life itself had to have critical importance against the looming threat of a future alien invasion. Ripley dying makes perfect sense. If it complements Newt transitioning from child to adult. Much how the alien gestates through it's life cycle in something different.

It's pretty sad for fans though, because Weaver is actually a tremendous actress in the most natural sense. If not for her insatiable ego and narcissism, this series could have really broken some new ground in what was possible for science fiction films. Alas, she had to be Patty Jenkins before there was a Patty Jenkins.

 

[a-dev]

Just saw this on Facebook, uncanny timing

 

[Dotanuki]

Alien 3 and 4 are amazing films. I love them, I have an Alien Quadrilogy DVD Box set and it is perfection in DVD form. I am a big fan of Alien 1-4.

Prometheus and Alien: Covenant were weak entries to the Alien World though.... Even i don't like them. I believe especially the Prometheus was such a ridiculous film. I mean they were like, it is the Alien World so everything produces an Alien, the plants, the squid baby.... It was like even someone smells Ridley's fart, that will produce a somekind of Alien because this is a film in the Alien World ! lol It was ridiculous. They totally ruined the lore. It should be that only a face huger from a Queen Alien Egg can produce an Alien.

 

[ironwez20]

What are these AVP films people keep referring to??

They were these movies right? They had a good premise and honestly the title spoke for itself. It should have been an easy film to make but the first film they made was boring and the second film was filmed with the lights off. I don’t blame you tho. These movies were bad. But hey we got some good stuff out it like the pred alien and scar predator

 

[ironwez20]

Alien 3 and 4 are amazing films. I love them, I have an Alien Quadrilogy DVD Box set and it is perfection in DVD form. I am a big fan of Alien 1-4.

Prometheus and Alien: Covenant were weak entries to the Alien World though.... Even i don't like them. I believe especially the Prometheus was such a ridiculous film. I mean they were like, it is the Alien World so everything produces an Alien, the plants, the squid baby.... It was like even someone smells Ridley's fart, that will produce a somekind of Alien because this is a film in the Alien World ! lol It was ridiculous. They totally ruined the lore. It should be that only a face huger from a Queen Alien Egg can produce an Alien.

I honestly wanted to see the Neil blomekempt movie be realized. He has an interesting style that would have been interesting to see in the alien world

 

[Antarion]

I do like all the Alien movies. Even the newer ones, even if they are not as good as 1-3. I didn't care for Newt either, so that helps lol.
4 was kinda crazy and it took me several tries to watch it beyond the first half hour. But once I made it thorugh I thought it was okay and entertaining.

Prometheus I liked in the cinema. It left a whole lot of question marks in my face though. What? Why? But the dark theme was great.
Covenant I need to rewatch some day can't remember the whole story even.

 

[ScoutingForToys]

I've always had a soft spot for Alien 3, both theatrical and Assembly cut.
Doesn't match the brilliance of Alien or Aliens but I'm happy with the trilogy.
I still watch all 3 Alien movies at least once a year.
A:R for some reason, even though it's a pretty bad movie I get some enjoyment out of it. I rarely rewatch it.
Prometheous could have been so much better. It had interesting ideas but fell short. Can't remember the last time I watched it.
Covenant was a bit of a mess.
So to me, the first 3 are a classic trilogy, let down somewhat by Alien 3. Not because it's outright bad, but because it doesn't live up to the preceeding films which are both classics.
Anything after 3, although they have their good and bad, I pretty much ignore.

 

[Rotfish]

This topical video popped up in my Recommendations. Certainly the coolest use of a CNC machine I've seen!

 

[Space Jockey]

Alien Resurrection to me is like dirty dishwater that just won't flush. I like Prometheus and Covenant, but there are short scenes in both that I cannot fathom why the story and way it is depicted did what they did and both disappoint me because of it. I'd like to have seen a third to wrap things up but if they try again to make David be the creator of the xenomorphs, and the Engineers to be the same aliens/creatures as the Space Jockey we seen in Alien, they can shove it up their pipe and smoke it as far as I'm concerned...

 

[MeatHookGekko]

I like Prometheus and Covenant, but there are short scenes in both that I cannot fathom why the story and way it is depicted did what they did and both disappoint me because of it. ....

The way it was explained to me, it was Brett Ratner who asked the most logical question regarding Prometheus - i.e. "Shouldn't all the major characters be Weylands?"

The root of Prometheus is derivative of Greek mythology. But Scott has deep interest in culture and mythology in general. ( Hence the core of Raised By Wolves) The key element that could have grounded the film was focusing almost solely on Weyland's failed hubris. I believe the situation with android David as the surrogate son was interesting, but we got close to nothing with Charlize Theron/Vickers and her relationship with her father. When Brett Ratner is the most logical person in the room, I think you have to wonder what exactly is going on. Elizabeth Shaw as Elizabeth Vickers/Weyland just simplifies so much of the character dynamic.

This is one of those cases where Ridley Scott should have just written the movie himself. It's his core story so let him hash out the complexities behind the narrative. The way I see Prometheus is asking someone, with no experience, to try to rebuild a car by simply hearing directions from a master mechanic only through a telephone. The introduction of Weyland near the end, as a plot twist, makes no sense. This isn't just a plothole, it's actually committing to make two different movies at the exact same time.

I have a hard time understanding how you can assemble Elba, Benedict Wong, Rapace, Theron, Pearce, Harris and Fassbender and manage to waste all of them entirely.

There's a really good potential movie hidden under all that bloat. An old wealthy narcissist who forsakes his own real family to chase immortality is a very human story. The original Alien works because it often asked some hard questions about the practical human condition. This is where, IMHO, Prometheus just sort of fell apart under Lindelof. Why would you give someone who created the Lost smoke monster the keys to this Ferrari?

My friend, imagine what could have been here, if the core story simply committed to doing something far simpler and far easier for the average viewer to relate from their own family life. My take on it.

 

[ironwez20]

I thought the white xenomorph thing was pretty cool and a nice new addition. I do think Alien could use new looking xenomorphs tbh. Don't know why they haven't capitalized on how the aliens can be different shapes and variations.