The Dark Knight Rises *SPOILERS*

[intothevoid]

Really glad I enjoy the hell out of this movie. Bane? Loved him and the threat he posed. Talia? Could have been better played by Marion Cottilard when she died but I enjoyed her telling of her story with Bane and felt for their forbidden past. In fact, the revelation of Bane protecting her made me like Bane even more. The League of Shadows retread? Made sense to me. I always thought after BB "Well Ra's is dead, but that doesn't mean the League doesn't still exist and they also know who Batman is" so Nolan bringing them back didn't seem lazy to me at all, more of a case of tying up loose ends.

The bringing the story back to the beginning worked for me completely and I enjoyed all the themes explored with this final film. I only wish a mention of The Joker had happened. What I thought of as cool was how The Joker in Miller's Dark Knight Returns was handled when Batman comes back. After TDK when Batman disappears, The Joker becomes comatose. Only when he hears Batman has been sighted again, he smiles and comes back into action. Something similar could have been done with TDKR. The smile handled with an extreme close up. Then when Bane breaks out the prisoners of Black Gate, The Joker is already gone. That could have been the extent of him in the film.

But oh well, I loved this film and am going for the 4th time this week.

Yeah I agree with everything

Glad I loved the film too - with each viewing it's being cemented further and further as my favourite

Feel really lucky to have had got these films and especially at this point in my life - feels great to have lived my late teens and good chunk of my 20s with these films. The anticipation, the analysis, the damn inaccuarate Hot Toys

 

[Josh-A-Tron]

I did actually. the show rosanne did the same thing and it sucked too.

I was going to mention Rosanne

 

[jye4ever]

Talia and Bane weren't developed well at all. For one, their goal was a rehash from Batman Begins right down to "LETS USE WAYNE ENTERPRISES TECHNOLOGY AGAINST THE CITY". It was a retread, plain and simple. The Dark Knight was quite a leap in everything it offered compared to Begins. TDKR, not so much except for it's even bigger and louder approach by making it a war/disaster film.

The dual identities had been done, the betrayal had been done, the scheme against the city had been done (even the, "LETS BREAK INMATES OUT OF PRISON, RIOTS, CHAOS!". It was all a retread of what had been done before. I remember during the Batman Forever days and even now fans would say that Riddler and Two-Face were "jokerlites" or Joker knock offs. Well, Bane and Talia are exactly like that in this film except Ra's Al Ghul knock offs. It's like the writers couldn't come up with anything compelling so they went back and ripped themselves off. For an epic conclusion, Bane and Talia are pretty dull compared to the likes of The Joker and Ra's Al Ghul. They're just cartoon villain psychos.

The twist isn't really a twist when people saw it coming a mile away (as soon as the film started production as a matter of fact). Ra's wasn't a secret, Talia wasn't a secret and Bane's affiliation with the League of Shadows wasn't a secret.



Batman isn't about trying to stop the League of Shadows again and again and again, but after this film it certainly makes it seem this way.


Ditch the contrived League of Shadows elements, make Bane a real mercenary/revolutionary with a goal of trying to be a type of Warlord/king over Gotham by threatening the city with a nuclear bomb dud and it would have been a better film. Hell, I'd have loved to have seen Bane and Talia argue about their different ideals and plans for the city. That would have been more interesting than, "my protectah".

The only GOOD to come out of the LOS and Ras rehash was the prison pit for Bruce Wayne. A thematic tool to LITERALLY make Bruce fall, then get back up and rise. It was also a nice link to Bane's actual comic origin.

The rest? Been there, done that.

Alfred became the old man in BB that kept repeating "If the pressure reaches the water mains, it's all going to blow!".

 

[Josh-A-Tron]

The only GOOD to come out of the LOS and Ras rehash was the prison pit for Bruce Wayne. A thematic tool to LITERALLY make Bruce fall, then get back up and rise. It was also a nice link to Bane's actual comic origin.

I actually also like that this was used to show that while in Batman Begins Bruce had to "over come" Fear, where in the Pit he was shown that he needed to embrace it.

 

[IrishJedi]

To be fair, it's pretty much a Nolan staple to have a character whose sole purpose within the film is to provide exposition to the audience and other characters. A perfect example is Ariadne in INCEPTION. All she basically does is either explain things or have things explained to her.

Kinda a shame that Alfred was mostly a plot pawn in TDKR. I'm also still struggling with how steadfast he was against Bruce being Batman again. This is pretty much a complete 180 from TDK, where he tells him to "endure" and basically says that Gotham needs Batman. Now here we are in the next movie and he's completely changed his tune. I guess we're supposedly to believe 8 years of Bruce growing goatees and shooting arrows was softening Alfred, too. But that's a stretch.

 

[The Josh]

I was going to mention Rosanne

Yeah, that really pissed me off as a kid. Worst idea for shows ever.

 

[jye4ever]

I actually also like that this was used to show that while in Batman Begins Bruce had to "over come" Fear, where in the Pit he was shown that he needed to embrace it.

Yup, hence the bats flying out of the hole and him ducking.

To be fair, it's pretty much a Nolan staple to have a character whose sole purpose within the film is to provide exposition to the audience and other characters. A perfect example is Ariadne in INCEPTION. All she basically does is either explain things or have things explained to her.

Kinda a shame that Alfred was mostly a plot pawn in TDKR. I'm also still struggling with how steadfast he was against Bruce being Batman again. This is pretty much a complete 180 from TDK, where he tells him to "endure" and basically says that Gotham needs Batman. Now here we are in the next movie and he's completely changed his tune. I guess we're supposedly to believe 8 years of Bruce growing goatees and shooting arrows was softening Alfred, too. But that's a stretch.

The now infamous 8 years gap.

 

[DiFabio]

I actually also like that this was used to show that while in Batman Begins Bruce had to "over come" Fear, where in the Pit he was shown that he needed to embrace it.

Yep, and that nice touch with the bats flying out of the crack in the wall.

Kinda a shame that Alfred was mostly a plot pawn in TDKR. I'm also still struggling with how steadfast he was against Bruce being Batman again. This is pretty much a complete 180 from TDK, where he tells him to "endure" and basically says that Gotham needs Batman. Now here we are in the next movie and he's completely changed his tune. I guess we're supposedly to believe 8 years of Bruce growing goatees and shooting arrows was softening Alfred, too. But that's a stretch.

Yep, Alfred really seemed out of character in TDKR. I know people change with time but Alfred always seemed like this constant. For me, TDKR sort of ruined him.

I know exactly what you mean about TDK when Alfred tells Bruce to endure. Also when he tells him that Gotham needs him after Rachel dies and then hands Bruce the cowl. It's great stuff. It directly mirrors and compliments Batman Begins when Bruce loses his parents. With TDKR there's none of that. All Alfred does is disapprove and cry. Oh and he hypes up Bane worse than a fanboy would.

Personally I think it would have been better if Alfred encouraged Bruce to embrace Batman and Bruce Wayne. Balance both worlds. That perhaps he could live a life as Bruce Wayne and Batman instead of discarding both and moving to Italy. We never saw this Bruce Wayne embrace both persona. It was either one or the other or none at all. I mean, not only did he fail as Batman, he failed at being Bruce Wayne too. He failed as a crime fighter, he failed as a philanthropist and he dive bombed his father's company straight into the ground with some stupid energy project.

Pretty interesting how in TDK Fox doesn't fully approve of Batman and _____es at him while Alfred feels that Batman is the "right choice". Then in TDKR, Fox is all sly and cool trying to coax Bruce to get back into the cape and cowl and Alfred is so against it.

 

[Khev]

Kinda a shame that Alfred was mostly a plot pawn in TDKR. I'm also still struggling with how steadfast he was against Bruce being Batman again. This is pretty much a complete 180 from TDK, where he tells him to "endure" and basically says that Gotham needs Batman. Now here we are in the next movie and he's completely changed his tune.

I thought Aflred was quite clear in that the reason that he changed his tune was because since the end of TDK they were all living a lie and it was time for "truth to have its day." In BB and TDK Alfred embraced the Batman because he was a symbol of good. By the time TDKR rolls around the symbol of the Caped Crusader was the lie of him being responsible for Dent's murders. I think that pained Alfred and was never what he had wished for Bruce. The lie about Rachel loving Bruce which perpetuated his (in Aflred's mind) misguided choices also weighed heavily on him.

I think the 180 was simply a natural progression of Alfred's care for Bruce based on what being "the Bat" had done to him.

Pretty interesting how in TDK Fox doesn't fully approve of Batman and _____es at him while Alfred feels that Batman is the "right choice". Then in TDKR, Fox is all sly and cool trying to coax Bruce to get back into the cape and cowl and Alfred is so against it.

Yep, and it's called "character development," when a character begins at one point and ends at another.

 

[jye4ever]

I thought Aflred was quite clear in that the reason that he changed his tune was because since the end of TDK they were all living a lie and it was time for "truth to have its day." In BB and TDK Alfred embraced the Batman because he was a symbol of good. By the time TDKR rolls around the symbol of the Caped Crusader was the lie of him being responsible for Dent's murders. I think that pained Alfred and was never what he had wished for Bruce. The lie about Rachel loving Bruce which perpetuated his (in Aflred's mind) misguided choices also weighed heavily on him.

I think the 180 was simply a natural progression of Alfred's care for Bruce based on what being "the Bat" had done to him.


Yep, and it's called "character development," when a character begins at one point and ends at another.

This one I have to give to Khev.

 

[IrishJedi]

Yep, and it's called "character development," when a character begins at one point and ends at another.

That's not character development. There was no progression whatsoever, just night-and-day differences.

In TDKR, vital characters serve mainly to thrust the plot more than in any other of the 3 films. That's one of its biggest problems.

 

[DiFabio]

Yep, and it's called "character development," when a character begins at one point and ends at another.

I know what it is but I don't think the direction of Alfred's "development" was a necessary one. It's not even development. It felt like the wrong choice. In fact it felt out of character.

Fear of losing Bruce is one thing, that was very much understood. Being vehemently against the idea of Batman and leaving his surrogate son is something else. Where is the guidance and support?

The only thing that Alfred contributed, the thing I thought he was "right" about was that Bruce wasn't focused. He didn't have the "eye of the tiger" and he wasn't going in with the right attitude that he had as a younger man during the Batman Begins days, that's it.

 

[IrishJedi]

Yeah. Basically, "character development" doesn't happen offscreen in a contrived 8 year time gap.

 

[IrishJedi]

Also, when a character begins at one point and ends at another... That's called an arc. Character development is what occurs in between.

So, yeah, Alfred has an arc between TDK and TDKR. And it's pretty lame, mostly because there's no palpable impetus... there was no progression or development there. He just went from supporter of Bruce and believer in Batman in TDK to a whiney ****** who turns his back on him in TDKR.

 

[karamazov80]

Seemed to me that Alfred turned into a "tittybaby" in the new movie. You don't support "___________," do you, Khev? (lol that the plural of that word is censored)

I don't really recall much reveling, unless you're counting the wry smirk on his face when he straps the bomb to that big Penguin goon.

Yes. Sadistic unrepentant murderer. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Bane was not a pawn
You guys still don't get it

Even in the script it explains that Banes motivation to destroy Batman and Gotham is the fact that Ra's saved him from the prison and was then killed by Batman

Him and Talia wanted the same thing - different from he was driven by what Talia wanted and was controlled by Talia

The way I saw it - Bane is the physical leader of the LoS and Talia is the spiritual leader

This is not at all clear to me based on the film itself. If they really wanted to portray that as Bane's motivation, then they should have given the audience more of that backstory to suggest it. Bane wanted to kill Batman because he killed Ra's? I thought Bane was supposed to be kicked out of the LOS because Ra's didn't care much for him. And would he really be so thankful that Ra's rescued him from the prison anyway? Shouldn't Bane have been more thankful to Talia for getting her father to come in and rescue Bane (while also killing all the other prisoners or whatever the hell he was doing in there)? Seems like Ra's owed a lot more to Bane than Bane did to Ra's.

Totally felt like Bane was wrapped around Talia's finger the whole time for some reason. He sacrified himself in order to save her in the prison, then followed her orders in Gotham, acting like a lapdog in that last scene they had together. At that point, I viewed Bane as explicitly second in command. A leader only so long as Talia isn't around.

I realize that I'm weeks behind on all TDKR discussion but did anyone else instantly think of "The Blues Brothers" when the 100 cop cars were chasing him on the Batpod through Chicago?

I didn't, but now I'll always think of that when I see that scene

Whether real or fake, that would have been great and could have been done without Ledger. A shame Nolan was such sap and completely avoided even a simple mention of the character. That will always be a huge flaw in this film to me.

Yeah, though I think Cokebabies' point about not mentioning Ra's in Part 2 makes it OK, Joker was bigger than Ra's in a way because everyone in the city presumably knew who was responsible for what happened in Joker's case. I didn't get the impression that anyone beyond a few select characters actually knew who Ra's was at all and/or why he was doing what he was doing. Joker was big news, but no mention of him at all?

 

[jye4ever]

Also, when a character begins at one point and ends at another... That's called an arc. Character development is what occurs in between.

So, yeah, Alfred has an arc in between TDK and TDKR. And it's pretty lame, mostly because there's no palpable impetus... there was no progression or development there. He just went from supporter of Bruce and believer in Batman in TDK to a whiney ****** who turns his back on him in TDKR.

To be nominated for an oscar requires a lot of tears and being a whiney ******.

 

[DiFabio]

Well I think that was the point of the 8 year gap to begin with. The writers didn't have to answer all the logical questions that the audience would have and they could skim over important developments with contrived exposition instead. That's why the first half of the film is so weak.

They wrote themselves into a corner with the Dark Knight. I never thought Gordon and Batman's plan for peace would work. In fact I thought the direction of a possible third film would have had the situation blowing up in their face (and while it sort of does, no one but Blackgate and Blake seem to care. There are no repressions felt in Gotham). That would have made an interesting film.

Instead, what we have is skimming over the important stuff that was established. "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain, focus on this new lady and this guy with the mask". What about the Joker? Forget him. What about Ramirez, she was crucial to Dent's actions? Forget about her. What about the 5 dead, 2 of them cops? Never mind that.


The whole abandoned "Harvey Dent Day" speech in Gordon's pocket being found by Bane is one of the biggest writing cop outs I've seen in a film in a long time.

I'm not saying that TDKR is utter crap, I'm just saying that it didn't feel like the logical progression after TDK. Not just because of expectations, but because of what was established in Batman Begins and The Dark Knight with these characters and their stories.

 

[karamazov80]

To be nominated for an oscar requires a lot of tears and being a whiney ******.

Hey now! I don't recall Ledger's Joker crying.

 

[IrishJedi]

To be nominated for an oscar requires a lot of tears and being a whiney ******.

Too bad it won't happen then.

 

[karamazov80]

Well I think that was the point of the 8 year gap to begin with. The writers didn't have to answer all the logical questions that the audience would have and they could skim over important developments with contrived exposition instead. That's why the first half of the film is so weak.

They wrote themselves into a corner with the Dark Knight. I never thought Gordon and Batman's plan for peace would work. In fact I thought the direction of a possible third film would have had the situation blowing up in their face. That would have made an interesting film.

Instead, what we have is skimming over the important stuff that was established. "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain, focus on this new lady and this guy with the mask". What about the Joker? Forget him. What about Ramirez, she was crucial to Dent's actions? Forget about her. What about the 5 dead, 2 of them cops? Never mind that.


The whole abandoned "Harvey Dent Day" speech in Gordon's pocket being found by Bane is one of the biggest writing cop outs I've seen in a long time.

I'm not saying that TDKR is utter crap, I'm just saying that it didn't feel like the logical progression after TDK. Not just because of expectations, but because of what was established in Batman Begins and The Dark Knight with these characters and their stories.

So in other words, what this movie needed was Eddie Murphy as Riddler? Agreed 100%.