The Flash - July 2022

[Wor-Gar]

Erased... from existence.

 

[a-dev]

I'm sure it's no surprise to you that one of the reasons The Flash appeals to me is that it gives me fun timeline stuff to chew on and I'm surprised that if you take Keaton's explanation as fact and ignore Barry's "Back to the Future" assumptions then everything basically works out without plot holes or paradoxes, at least that I've been able to think of.

What made me really start pondering the ramifications of the story was the initial horror that Barry erased Affleck Bruce from existence by tampering with the timelines and creating Clooney Bruce. That borderline made me sick to my stomach (lol) especially considering it was Affleck that tried to persuade Barry not to do that. And then he ends up being the only one permanently erased from ever existing? *shudder* Then I realized that the film seemed to be quite clear that Barry was merely entering alternate universes and not actually changing anything from his own. And that's really cool IMO.

That's like the reaction I used to have to the original John Connor theory for Terminator - the idea that Kyle Reese actually unwittingly carried out the Terminator's mission and erased John Connor - albeit replacing him with a seemingly equally proficient man who would also be named John Connor. But it seemed a cruelly ironic fate for original John. However, after ajp's 3 timeline theory which incorporates the original John idea, it's actually quite cool because original John never got erased - he continues to exist in the original timeline. He simply never comes to exist in the 2 parallel timelines. And the 'son of Kyle Reese' version of John never actually has to send his father back in time leaving open that they can have a bizarrely inverted father/son relationship after the war.

Reason I've got this back on the brain by the way is a friend invited me to a T1/T2 double-bill in a Dublin cinema tomorrow.

As for The Flash, naturally I still haven't seen it. I've spoiled the heck out of it but hopefully I'll still get enjoyment from it. I want an excuse to get that old man Keaton Hot Toys figure.

 

[Khev]

As for The Flash, naturally I still haven't seen it.

You really should, and thankfully it looked great on HBO Max.

As for Terminator, I agree that ajp's interpretation is possible, and a little more comforting than original John being eradicated but like I said back in the day I can't subscribe to it because I don't believe that that's the story that James Cameron intended to tell. To me the existence of the photograph showed that Cameron wanted us to believe that all changes (and erasures) were occurring in one single timeline/universe.

The reason I interpret The Flash differently is because they go out of their way to have the smartest character in the movie explain it in detail and then later when a young version of a certain character dies it doesn't erase all the older versions of that same character, just the older version from that same universe.

I do like the old man Keaton HT figure and am even finding myself tempted to pick up the whole alternate JL team (Barry 1 and 2, Kara, and Keaton) lol.

As for the T1/T2 double feature that should definitely be awesome.

 

[Wor-Gar]

But in the spaghetti-verse, you shouldn't be able to erase anyone or change anything... just create a new universe.

 

[Khev]

But in the spaghetti-verse, you shouldn't be able to erase anyone or change anything... just create a new universe.

Exactly. And Barry never seems to figure this out despite it being told to him point blank. He never "kills his mom," he simply re-establishes contact with the first universe where she died. Then he opts to create an entirely new one by "saving" his dad.

 

[jye4ever]

All young Barry did at the end of the movie is literally what the Avengers did to try and defeat Thanos. "Whatever it takes." And it even shines a spotlight on how ridiculous Doctor Strange's "viewing 14 million possible futures" was to achieve victory. Think about it, let's say that each potential outcome of the Avengers fighting Thanos takes just one single hour of time (though it'd obviously be significantly more if Strange was viewing events up through the end of Endgame.) At just one single hour for each possibility that's obviously 14 million hours. There are 8,760 hours in a year which means he'd have to spend 1,598 years watching each one of those 14 million hours! So when Strange snapped out of his trance he had literally just lived for more than a millennium and a half! And yet somehow had the wherewithal to remember what everyone had just been talking about 1,600 years earlier to just jump right back into the conversation as if no time had passed at all? How was he not some near godlike being...or monster at that point?

But The Flash basically explores that in showing what happens to young Barry when he does live out countless scenarios in real time and the toll it takes on his sanity. And it's only that loss of sanity (which is not his fault since any other hero save DCEU Barry would have done the same) and callousness toward universes colliding (which for all we know he believed could be undone as well) that made him a villain at all.

Alien 3 who!

Flash said hold my beer lol

 

[Captain Clown]

this whole “Gunn bad” crap is stupid since dude didn’t come out with a movie in his universe yet.

Guardians 2.

 

[T8OO]

Keaton doing his best to stick the big Kryptonian with bombs the same way he did to the bald clown guy in Returns was also cool.

I disliked this bit. The idea of Batman crawling around and hanging on while planting explosives is a great idea. I just thought they completely nerfed Nam-Ek to do it.

 

[T8OO]

I can see why it did so poorly. Defeated by Indy. Defeated by Tom. Defeated by Oppenheimer. Defeated by Barbie. Batman, Flash and Superman... and ALL of them... defeated.

The Summer of 2023 is legendary. You may not see it now... but one day, looking back, you will understand what happened this year.

[not you singular; you plural]

And Blue Beetle makes it look like a mega success box office wise.

 

[T8OO]

O lord. Here we go. It already burned buddy. Ever since BVS dropped and was trash. Gunn is just trying to wash away the smoldering remains at this point. Whether he succeeds is up to speculation but this whole “Gunn bad” crap is stupid since dude didn’t come out with a movie in his universe yet.
If he succeeds I can’t wait for the blantant switch up

and it was the 2nd highest DCEU box office earner, followed by the 4th, 3rd and the 1st within 2 years, and then had 8 back-to-back box office flops in a row for the proceeding 5 years.

 

[Khev]

I disliked this bit. The idea of Batman crawling around and hanging on while planting explosives is a great idea. I just thought they completely nerfed Nam-Ek to do it.

I suppose, though Nam-Ek did eventually get up even after the bomb went off against his head.

I did notice that they also treated all Kryptonian metal as basically being Kryptonite which I don't recall was the case prior to this movie?

 

[Rambler]

I finally watched this on HBO this weekend. I have to admit that it wasn’t as bad as I thought it was going to be. I was entertained, but don’t know if I’ll actually go back and watch again.

 

[T8OO]

I suppose, though Nam-Ek did eventually get up even after the bomb went off against his head.

I did notice that they also treated all Kryptonian metal as basically being Kryptonite which I don't recall was the case prior to this movie?

They made him very slow and that cable around his neck would be like a cobweb to us and he's struggling to pull it off. This guy throws trains and Superman around.

Treated it like Kryptonite because it can kill Kryptonians? I suppose Doomsday's splintered hand bone kills Superman, but he was around Kryptonite at the time.

 

[Khev]

They made him very slow and that cable around his neck would be like a cobweb to us and he's struggling to pull it off. This guy throws trains and Superman around.

True. I guess since he still kills Batman anyway that I'm fine with a little artistic inconsistency in his power level to give Keaton a few extra cool moments.

Treated it like Kryptonite because it can kill Kryptonians? I suppose Doomsday's splintered hand bone kills Superman, but he was around Kryptonite at the time.

Yeah, I know it doesn't weaken them like being around real Kryptonite per se but I couldn't recall Kryptonian metal being able to hurt them while they were on Earth. If that's something that turns out to be a retcon as well then it's a welcome one in my mind, I've never loved the fact that true Kryptonite is the only thing that can hurt them physically. Good call on mentioning Doomsday's bone spikes.

 

[ironwez20]

and it was the 2nd highest DCEU box office earner, followed by the 4th, 3rd and the 1st within 2 years, and then had 8 back-to-back box office flops in a row for the proceeding 5 years.

Also had a historic drop and pretty much doomed the rest of the dc brand to failure and civil war pretty much stomped it at the box office. Let’s not do this song and dance again. You lose Everytime. Bvs should have been a billion dollar movie outpacing cap and iron man easily. It feel flat causing the spark that lit the fire we see now.

 

[a-dev]

You really should, and thankfully it looked great on HBO Max.

As for Terminator, I agree that ajp's interpretation is possible, and a little more comforting than original John being eradicated but like I said back in the day I can't subscribe to it because I don't believe that that's the story that James Cameron intended to tell. To me the existence of the photograph showed that Cameron wanted us to believe that all changes (and erasures) were occurring in one single timeline/universe.

The reason I interpret The Flash differently is because they go out of their way to have the smartest character in the movie explain it in detail and then later when a young version of a certain character dies it doesn't erase all the older versions of that same character, just the older version from that same universe.

Spoiler

I was myself aware that it's probably not what Cameron had in mind. But once I got to grips with it and realized just how damn well it works in terms of the mechanics of the first 2 films I stopped caring about Cameron's intent. Besides it's not like he's going to make any more films in the series that would reinforce his intent from more than 30 years ago and further complicate (or render impossible) our own attempts to make proper sense of Terminator's time travelling.....I'm obviously not counting Dark Fate here

Writer and director's intent is important but frankly, I just don't think Cameron thought it through to its fullest. For one thing the single timeline idea is immediately disproven when Skynet sends the T-800 to 1984 and yet somehow John still exists to send Reese after it. In a single timeline any changes and erasures would have occurred with the very first use of time travel. Thus instant victory for Skynet. It's pretty much a huge plothole right from the off. Meanwhile we have Sarah Connor on the one hand seeming to believe that she's in a repeating timeloop where when John grows up he's going to have to send Kyle to 1984 again to ensure his own existence - yet on the other hand she believes ''no fate but what we make'' and she wants to blow up Cyberdyne and stop Skynet from coming to be - which would mean Kyle Reese would never have to be sent in the first place - wouldn't that (i.e the victory in T2) erase John by the logic of this looping concept? It's a contradiction in messaging.

Now I don't mind thinking that Cameron's writing was flawed - it doesn't ruin the movies for me - human misunderstanding of time travel - be it that of Reese or Sarah or John - is a plausible in-universe representation of Cameron's own confused ideas and generally doesn't cause problems with the 3 timeline theory.

The only issues are that photograph - somehow the exact same photograph gets created in 2 timelines - and there's also the matter of why an original John who isn't the son of Kyle Reese would give Kyle a picture of his mom if he lacks the motivation that Kyle seems to ascribe him in the movie - ''John Connor gave me a picture of you once. I didn't know why at the time....'' - that line is loaded with implication that Kyle now believes John giving him the photograph was because John knew in advance that he'd be sending Kyle back through time - in the 3 timeline theory this is not the case. This would be the first and only time he'd be sending Kyle back in time and he did not know about it in advance because the Terminator assassination attempt had not happened at all in the 1984 of the original timeline.

I do like the old man Keaton HT figure and am even finding myself tempted to pick up the whole alternate JL team (Barry 1 and 2, Kara, and Keaton) lol.

Keaton is probably already a definite if I'm honest.

 

[Wor-Gar]

Blue Beetle doesn't even have a thread

 

[Khev]

In a single timeline any changes and erasures would have occurred with the very first use of time travel. Thus instant victory for Skynet. It's pretty much a huge plothole right from the off.

Technically it isn't though since the movie never shows us the T-800 and Reese using the time displacement equipment. For all we know it was some big force field chamber, Arnold stood in the center as it was powering up, the human resistance broke in and Reese leaped in along with Arnold and then the next thing everyone knew both were gone. (T2 makes this messier obviously but you could still have two Terminators in the field as it powers up with the two protectors jumping in at the last minute.)

It might be an inelegant explanation but it's just one of several that makes it *possible* which is all that's required since it all took place off camera. Kind of like "how did the T-1000 arrive?" and then we theorize that he either was somehow sentient (and "living") or he traveled inside some poor animal's body and then burst out on arrival. We don't know but again it wasn't shown so not necessarily a plot hole.

Meanwhile we have Sarah Connor on the one hand seeming to believe that she's in a repeating timeloop where when John grows up he's going to have to send Kyle to 1984 again to ensure his own existence - yet on the other hand she believes ''no fate but what we make'' and she wants to blow up Cyberdyne and stop Skynet from coming to be - which would mean Kyle Reese would never have to be sent in the first place - wouldn't that (i.e the victory in T2) erase John by the logic of this looping concept? It's a contradiction in messaging.

True but I can accept that as Sarah just deciding that she's not going to accept her fate, or humanity's fate, lying down and decides to fight it head on and hope for the best. Like you say below *she* doesn't know since all of this is way above her pay grade but hey it was a plausible enough excuse to justify a terrifically entertaining sequel.

Now I don't mind thinking that Cameron's writing was flawed - it doesn't ruin the movies for me - human misunderstanding of time travel - be it that of Reese or Sarah or John - is a plausible in-universe representation of Cameron's own confused ideas and generally doesn't cause problems with the 3 timeline theory.

The only issues are that photograph - somehow the exact same photograph gets created in 2 timelines - and there's also the matter of why an original John who isn't the son of Kyle Reese would give Kyle a picture of his mom if he lacks the motivation that Kyle seems to ascribe him in the movie - ''John Connor gave me a picture of you once. I didn't know why at the time....'' - that line is loaded with implication that Kyle now believes John giving him the photograph was because John knew in advance that he'd be sending Kyle back through time - in the 3 timeline theory this is not the case. This would be the first and only time he'd be sending Kyle back in time and he did not know about it in advance because the Terminator assassination attempt had not happened at all in the 1984 of the original timeline.

Keaton is probably already a definite if I'm honest.

It really is an awesome looking figure.

 

[jye4ever]

agp seeing Terminator discussion pop up in Flash thread..

 

[T8OO]

Also had a historic drop and pretty much doomed the rest of the dc brand to failure and civil war pretty much stomped it at the box office. Let’s not do this song and dance again. You lose Everytime. Bvs should have been a billion dollar movie outpacing cap and iron man easily. It feel flat causing the spark that lit the fire we see now.

A drop that Spider-Man Homecoming beat.
Doomed the rest of the brand to give them 3.3 billion in the next 4 movies.
If you thought a movie featuring a new Batman would ever beat the 13th MCU movie, a team-up featuring 12 heroes in 2016, that makes you the deluded one.