The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug

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You and Njits are intelligent people and I enjoy debating with you two, and I'm not the biggest Legolas Fan myself. He was actually my least favorite character in LOTR and I personally thought the Oliphant scene was pretty ridicules. Yes Legolas hopping on Dwarves was silly, and I'm sure little kids will love it, which is why I have a feeling PJ started doing Super Legolas in Two Towers.

About CGI in regards to Legolas doing the Super Human feats. Well, to be honest If they would have used practical effects on the Dwarves hopscotch it would have looked even more silly in my opinion. I know Tauriel(spl) did some things, but it was more toned down.

Believe me, I'm a fan of Less is more in movies, and like I said, Amon Hen was by far one of the most intense action sequences in the entire LOTR and we got to see Legolas do really amazing things without many effects. Legolas in Lake town, the things were still super human, but it wasn't as cartoony as the other two parts he was in. Honestly, his battle with blog was pretty gritty, and reminded me a little of Aragorn vs. Lurtz. Aragorn would always take a beating and keep going. Like John McLane!

I used to have the EE DVDs, but they accidently got packed in with Dvds that I was getting rid of. I need to get the Blu-Ray set. I think I'll check ebay out.

I don't mind the CG for the jumping on the heads... there is more... Like Sliding between Orcs feet, standing and shooting quickly. That was CG. that is one example of a cartoon Legolas.

I think of that scene and then I think back to the Extended FOTR when he shoots about 8 orcs and how it was all real (except for CG arrows) and how THAT was so much cooler then his fast paced acrobats in the new one.

I liked Legolas just fine in the LOTR. I Loved the Oliphant scene. It was done well and like I said before it was a set up for the funniest line in the whole series (That still only counts as one). Thing is when Legolas was given his "moment" in the LOTR it was usually just one, somewhat brief, moment (except for the Oliphant).

The new one was just one big, "Oh look how cool Legolas is" during all the action scenes. Like I said many of the "regular" action scenes have a CG Legolas doing some of those things. The above mentioned scene being one example and I believe there are more.


Having said all that... It was not Legolas that ruined my enjoyment. Just sort of annoyed me. I did not mind when they firs announced he would be in it (Loved the Gimli joke) but wish then mad it more of a cameo instead of a big role.


PS - I have enjoyed our debates also :)
 
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Warning: Long, pretentious post incoming.

I was thinking about what scene from the movie was my favourite, and it turned out that the one which had the biggest impact on me, was the one that's most controversial - Dwarves final confrontation with Smaug.

I think many people are mistaking the kind of whimsical, slapstick energy that PJ is bringing into those films, with typical, souless, holywood fireworks. It is much more heartfelt than that. The battle with Smaug is a perfect example of this.

Watching it in the theatre I thought it had a wonderfull energy, but at the same time I also thought it was a bit excessive. But the more I think about that sequence, the more I believe it was not only the best in the entire film, but most importantly - it was an example of a moment where PJ's unhinged, cinematic craziness melded perfectly with his love for Tolkien. Here's why:

There are at least two important things in this trilogy that Peter Jackson actually did better than Tolkien. And that is the way he handled Dwarfs and the way he utilised Smaug. The final sequence in DOS is the culmination of the two. The Dwarfs in the movies are much more important, much more active, much more dramaticaly substantial group, than they were in the book. Jackson really managed to convey the theme that the 13 dwarves are like a lost diaspora. Desperate, down trodden, wandering folk with no place to call home home and no identity. For them the quest to get rid of Smaug wasn't about gold, riches or even the Arkenstone (means to an end), it was about reclaiming their lost homeland, their cultural ancestry and one of the last save havens for their race. You didn't get that feeling in the book. Tolkien didn't develop it well enough. Reading the original "Hobbit" you could almost get the impression that Bilbo was recruited by a bunch of greedy, cowardly *******s :).

In Jackson's version their quest not only has much more dramatic weight than in the book, the dwarves themselves are also much more active as a group and generally more pronounced. That's why I think their final showdown with Smaug was absolutely necessary. It wasn't CGI filler. In the book that confrontation wasn't needed, couse the dwarfs and the importance of their quest was secondary to the story. But in the movies Jackson spent all this time and effort building up the dwarves and the importance of their quest - as such it would be incredibly dissatisfying and underwhelming from a narrative stand point if Jackson denied them the chance to face the beast that killed their ancestors. They needed that last face-to-face showdown with the creature that took so much from them, even if in the end they didn't hurt it. Leaving it all to Bilbo - like in the book - would be very dramaticaly deflating (not to mention, it would significantly reduce Smaug's screen time, whose presence in the book was also suprisingly small).

Plus, from a purely cinematic standpoint, I think that sequence was very well done. Yes, it was OVER THE TOP. Yes, it followed the logic and physics of a video game. But it was so full of heart and pure cinematic energy. This is PJ unhinged crazyness at it's best - the kind of visual pomposity, that is fuelled by emotions. Some people were allready complaining about the "video game antics" in Goblin Town in AUJ, but I think this kind of comedic, almost slapstick energy fits wonderfully with the idea of dwarfs as a group of fairy-tale troublemakers, as well as with the adventurous, whimsical spirit of "The Hobbit". The Smaug confontation cranked that up to 11, and it wonderfully showcased the slapstick muscles of the Dwarfs, showed how industrious and resourceful they are, and also how well they function as a group of brothers, how they support each other, how they fight together in the face of overwhelming odds (what is more Dwarven than that I ask?). For me this whole sequence was full of wonderfull cinematic energy and spirit. The moments when Thorin says to his companions: "if this is to end in fire, then we shall all burn together!" and when he finally faces Smaug and shouts some dwarven curses at him, was incredibly cathartic and worked well as a narrative finale for DOS. I think it would be a shot in the foot from a storytelling standpoint, if the dwarves were denied that confrontation.

So in the end, its an example of a sequence that on the outside may seem like excessive, blockbuster fireworks, but in truth - not only did it make a lot of sense storywise, it was also full of heart and spirit (and that translates well to other things PJ done in this trilogy). I think its a real shame that many people are bashing that sequence.

The only problem I had with it, was that PJ continued to intercut it with unnecessary shots from Lake Town, which extended the lenght of the whole affair. I was reminded of Lucas prequels, when he kept intercutting important lightsaber battles with **** that few people cared about.

I like what it does story wise... I just wish it was done a bit better. But it does have the one scene that made my Jaw drop. It was when Bilbo or Throin are running from Smaug and it is a low shot angel and you see them come over a ledge and then Smaug comes over the ledge after him and he looks huge and amazing. My jaw dropped and I smiled. It was a true site to behold.
 
Warning: Long, pretentious post incoming.

Fantastic post and I totally agree.

That the was the dwarves' one chance to go into Smaug's house and push him around, something every dwarf who ever lived in Erebor would have dreamed of doing for decades. They didn't kill him, or even injure him, but they pissed him off. They made it personal and that was as satisfying a victory that we could see for them and still have everything else play out as it did in the book.

The only problem I had with it, was that PJ continued to intercut it with unnecessary shots from Lake Town, which extended the lenght of the whole affair. I was reminded of Lucas prequels, when he kept intercutting important lightsaber battles with **** that few people cared about.

I'm a sucker for ROTJ-style "three way" battles and I loved the cross cutting between Smaug, Gandalf, and Lake Town.
 
For me it was less ROTJ and more TPM and Obi Wan's, Qui Gon and Darth Maul's threeway being intercut with footage of little Wonderboy piloting his starship, or Amidala and her troops retaking Naboo ;)

Dwarves struggle against smaug had such a fantastic energy to it, that I think it would have been slightly better to leave it as one, uplifting sequence.
 
Another thing I do like about the ending is that it wasn't a cup being taken that pissed Smaug off to attack it was being attacked. I love what's in the book but him being attacked works well also.
 
Though there is lot about this movie or Jackson's newest approach to Tolkien (newest, as in diffrent from his LOTR) that I don't like, I must say I am a bit sad to see so much backlash against DOS.

Though the movie seems to be better recieved by general audiences than AUJ, despite this it might also turn out to be the movie that will deal the biggest blow to the reputation of PJ's Middle Earth. Couse the accusations of simplifing, dumbing down and generally "blockbusterising" Tolkien's writing seems to be the loudest this time around. It's not without good reasons, after all Jackson really let go of even the most superficial pretense of moderation or restraint this time. And there is a lot in the film that could be viewed as unnecessary filler.

But then again some changes appear "blockbustery" only on the surface, and either make a lot of sense, or are full of heart and spirit in tune with what Tolkien showed in "The Hobbit". Like the Tauriel-Killi-Legolas relation which - while crude, and sometimes a bit cringe worthy from cinematic standpoint - is often mistaken as "forced love story", while in truth, it is an obvious plot device meant to touch upon the theme of distrust and policy of isolation between races, and supposed to build up Tauriel as "Thranduil's Conscience" and a bridge between diffrent cultures. Or the Dwarves vs. Smaug scene I wrote about earlier.

Most importantly though, even if one thinks that DOS is overally dumbed down, artificially streched, crude and simplified, it is still only a specific 1/3 of a bigger story. A particular 1/3 made from chapters that are more action packed by definition. It's sad that people have such short memories and that DOS will from now one serve for many as demonstrative of all of PJ's middle earth.

Hopefully though, I am overestimating the backlash.
 
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Watched this last night. It was good but man... it drags where it tries to invent scenes. I get the assault on Dol Guldor and anything pulled from appendices and unfinished tales. But why invent all these other scenes with Tauriel, Kili and drag out Smaug like that? It added unecessary length and hurt the overall pace of the film.

my dream would be to have a hand in editing this to make a tighter film. I could cut 30 minutes at least and the movie would be better for it.
 
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Watched this last night. It was good but man... it drags where it tries to invent scenes. I get the assault on Dol Guldor and anything pulled from appendices and unfinished tales. But why invent all these other scenes with Tauriel, Kili and drag out Smaug like that? It added unecessary length and hurt the overall pace of the film.

my dream would be to have a hand in editing this to make a tighter film. I could cut 30 minutes at least and the movie would be better for it.

Just don't cut the melting golden statue, best part of the movie.
 
Hopefully though, I am overestimating the backlash.

Always take "backlash" based only on internet postings with a grain of salt. If this was After Earth or the Lone Ranger I'd say yeah, people are responding with their actions and wallets but DOS is getting generally favorable reviews and has been going strong at the box office.

I think it's making Middle-Earth new again and is catching a lot of people off guard in a good way. From what I see the only people complaining about the Smaug battle and Tauriel sequences are those being snobby about the fact that it was different in the book.

But those same people were out in droves during the LOTR with Arwen being chased by ringwraiths, elves fighting at Helm's Deep, Frodo indirectly causing Gollum to fall off the ledge, and so on. The critics and the Academy are apparently "over" PJ's Middle-Earth and have moved on to shiny new things like Life of Pi and Gravity, but both AUJ and DOS are solid entries worthy of the series and in time I foresee all naysayers being quieted just as they were 10 years ago.
 
Always take "backlash" based only on internet postings with a grain of salt. If this was After Earth or the Lone Ranger I'd say yeah, people are responding with their actions and wallets but DOS is getting generally favorable reviews and has been going strong at the box office.

I think it's making Middle-Earth new again and is catching a lot of people off guard in a good way. From what I see the only people complaining about the Smaug battle and Tauriel sequences are those being snobby about the fact that it was different in the book.

But those same people were out in droves during the LOTR with Arwen being chased by ringwraiths, elves fighting at Helm's Deep, Frodo indirectly causing Gollum to fall off the ledge, and so on. The critics and the Academy are apparently "over" PJ's Middle-Earth and have moved on to shiny new things like Life of Pi and Gravity, but both AUJ and DOS are solid entries worthy of the series and in time I foresee all naysayers being quieted just as they were 10 years ago.


oh please, quit trying to paint everyone with a single brush stroke. There are valid issues with the3 film. I am fine with changes if they fit and don't affect the pacing. Some of the changes in Hobbit are baffling. The reviews are positive but not great. It is a good movie but it is not a great one. Box office numbers are no measure of quality.
 
Though there is lot about this movie or Jackson's newest approach to Tolkien (newest, as in diffrent from his LOTR) that I don't like, I must say I am a bit sad to see so much backlash against DOS.

Though the movie seems to be better recieved by general audiences than AUJ, despite this it might also turn out to be the movie that will deal the biggest blow to the reputation of PJ's Middle Earth. Couse the accusations of simplifing, dumbing down and generally "blockbusterising" Tolkien's writing seems to be the loudest this time around. It's not without good reasons, after all Jackson really let go of even the most superficial pretense of moderation or restraint this time. And there is a lot in the film that could be viewed as unnecessary filler.

But then again some changes appear "blockbustery" only on the surface, and either make a lot of sense, or are full of heart and spirit in tune with what Tolkien showed in "The Hobbit". Like the Tauriel-Killi-Legolas relation which - while crude, and sometimes a bit cringe worthy from cinematic standpoint - is often mistaken as "forced love story", while in truth, it is an obvious plot device meant to touch upon the theme of distrust and policy of isolation between races, and supposed to build up Tauriel as "Thranduil's Conscience" and a bridge between diffrent cultures. Or the Dwarves vs. Smaug scene I wrote about earlier.

Most importantly though, even if one thinks that DOS is overally dumbed down, artificially streched, crude and simplified, it is still only a specific 1/3 of a bigger story. A particular 1/3 made from chapters that are more action packed by definition. It's sad that people have such short memories and that DOS will from now one serve for many as demonstrative of all of PJ's middle earth.

Hopefully though, I am overestimating the backlash.

I do think there is some valid concerns with the "blockbustery" comments as a whole this film still feels like Middle-earth. There are always going to be fans who are so rigid in it must be like the book you'll never please them. I think all five movies so far have been excellent and a great way to get folks interested in reading the books.
 
I do think there is some valid concerns with the "blockbustery" comments as a whole this film still feels like Middle-earth. There are always going to be fans who are so rigid in it must be like the book you'll never please them. I think all five movies so far have been excellent and a great way to get folks interested in reading the books.

I'll agree with this but IMHO some changes from the novel seemed unnecessary and if done like the book would still be just as powerful. For ex. PJs Smaug was super smart but at the same time sorta stupid by not killing the dwarves as well as Bilbo where as Tolkiens Smaug while Smart was more vicious. Smaug from the book talked to Bilbo because he couldn't see him otherwise it would be kill on sight for dwarves and Bilbo or whoever. That is my take as to the difference. DOS could have been a shorter film but just as powerful. Buy hey I loved the film anyway solid 9/10 and the more of middle earth the better. I wish the film was 6 hours long
 
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I'll agree with this but IMHO some changes from the novel seemed unnecessary and if done like the book would still be just as powerful. For ex. PJs Smaug was super smart but at the same time sorta stupid by not killing the dwarves as well as Bilbo where as Tolkiens Smaug while Smart was more vicious. If Smaug from the book talked to Bilbo because he couldn't see him otherwise it would be kill on sight for dwarves and Bilbo or whoever. That is my take as to the difference. DOS could have been a shorter film but just as powerful. Buy hey I loved the film anyway solid 9/10 and the more of middle earth the better. I wish the film was 6 hours long

More editing and less unecessary scenes would have given the overall film more impact. The reviews would be higher and the general consensus would be more positive. Not sure why PJ thinks longer films are better.
 
More editing and less unecessary scenes would have given the overall film more impact. The reviews would be higher and the general consensus would be more positive. Not sure why PJ thinks longer films are better.

I still loved the film but it could have been better yes.
 
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