The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power | Amazon Prime Video - September 2, 2022

[Lejuan]

I keep checking here for a reason to watch this, and I can't find any.

I watched the first three or four episodes of the first season and wondered how they could make Middle Earth so boring. After a few scenes of episode one of season 2 it was more of the same.

Utterly soul-less television. The writing, the characters, the CG… boring as batsh**

 

[Landry]

All the hate I see for this show... Is it perfect? No. But can someone please point me in the direction of a better live action TV show about a god-being deceiving a vain elven smith into forging magical trinkets of destruction while a dwarven kingdom mines it's way to doom? No? Okay then.

 

[Landry]

WHY in the NAME OF ERU ILUVATAR would Tom Bombadil know more about the Flame Imperishable than Olorin of the Maia.
Why would some wild pagan nature-deity know more about God than one of his own angels....

God I hate this show so much

Because the maiar come to Middle Earth without full memory of where they came from.

"For it is said indeed that being embodied the Istari had need to learn much anew by slow experience and though they knew whence they came the memory of the Blessed Realm was to them a vision from afar off, for which (so long as they remained true to their mission) they yearned exceedingly."

 

[lordnastrond]

Because the maiar come to Middle Earth without full memory of where they came from.

"For it is said indeed that being embodied the Istari had need to learn much anew by slow experience and though they knew whence they came the memory of the Blessed Realm was to them a vision from afar off, for which (so long as they remained true to their mission) they yearned exceedingly."

1. The Istari came via ship (though not all together) to the Grey Havens where they met Cirdan, when they arrived they informed him of their divine mission to counter Sauron (and here Cirdan secretly gave Gandalf Narya in the belief that he, and not Saruman, was the wisest of the order) and so they clearly did not arrive with amnesia as to who they were, what their purpose was and where they came from and on whose behalf.

2. Yes they had to learn stuff anew, but you are highlighting the wrong section of the quote. They didn't need to learn anew their magic or connection to Iluvatar or The Utmost West. What they had to learn anew was the experiences of being truly incarnated or "embodied" in a physical form with wants, needs, emotions they ad angelic beings were not used to as made clear with this other section of the Unfinished Tales chapter on the Istari you are quoting:
"For they must be mighty, peers of Sauron, but must forgo might, and clothe themselves in flesh so as to treat on equality and win the trust of Elves and Men. But this would imperil them, dimming their wisdom and knowledge, and confusing them with fears, cares, and weariness coming from the flesh."

3. Yes their memories of Valinor were dimmed, but this was done to prevent their pangs of homesickness for the divine perfection of Valinor to distract them from their mission in ME, made clear by the above quote you use "....though they knew whence they came the memory of the Blessed Realm was to them a vision from afar off, for which (so long as they remained true to their mission) they yearned exceedingly. Thus by enduring of free will the pangs of exile and the deceits of Sauron they might redress the evils of that time." This quote clearly shows, through describing the "exceeding" nature of their "yearning" for home, with yearning already being a word with strong emotional emphasis, the strength of the memory of Valinor on these beings even as dimmed as it is, with the further compounding language describing the "pangs" of "exile" supporting this. The suggestion being that unless dimmed and made hazy the memory of Valinor would distract the Istari from their important mission. What is clear is that the memory is merely dimmed, not removed, as that would also be detrimental to their ability to counter Sauron.

4. Tom Bombadil, a merry soul he may be, and deeply ancient. But he is not so far as we can tell angelic in nature nor does he come from Valinor. Nor is he listed as one of the few who came to know the true nature and origin of the Istari (that list being the White Council - which Bombadil was not ever part of) So there would be no way for him to teach Gandalf the ways of the Ainur or his status as a Servant of The Secret Fire/Iluvatar. Not to mention that even if Tom was in such a position it would be completely against his character to actually do this.

Apologies for the long ass post
Let my inner literature lecturer loose for a second there!

 

[Landry]

1. The Istari came via ship (though not all together) to the Grey Havens where they met Cirdan, when they arrived they informed him of their divine mission to counter Sauron (and here Cirdan secretly gave Gandalf Narya in the belief that he, and not Saruman, was the wisest of the order) and so they clearly did not arrive with amnesia as to who they were, what their purpose was and where they came from and on whose behalf.

2. Yes they had to learn stuff anew, but you are highlighting the wrong section of the quote. They didn't need to learn anew their magic or connection to Iluvatar or The Utmost West. What they had to learn anew was the experiences of being truly incarnated or "embodied" in a physical form with wants, needs, emotions they ad angelic beings were not used to as made clear with this other section of the Unfinished Tales chapter on the Istari you are quoting:
"For they must be mighty, peers of Sauron, but must forgo might, and clothe themselves in flesh so as to treat on equality and win the trust of Elves and Men. But this would imperil them, dimming their wisdom and knowledge, and confusing them with fears, cares, and weariness coming from the flesh."

3. Yes their memories of Valinor were dimmed, but this was done to prevent their pangs of homesickness for the divine perfection of Valinor to distract them from their mission in ME, made clear by the above quote you use "....though they knew whence they came the memory of the Blessed Realm was to them a vision from afar off, for which (so long as they remained true to their mission) they yearned exceedingly. Thus by enduring of free will the pangs of exile and the deceits of Sauron they might redress the evils of that time." This quote clearly shows, through describing the "exceeding" nature of their "yearning" for home, with yearning already being a word with strong emotional emphasis, the strength of the memory of Valinor on these beings even as dimmed as it is, with the further compounding language describing the "pangs" of "exile" supporting this. The suggestion being that unless dimmed and made hazy the memory of Valinor would distract the Istari from their important mission. What is clear is that the memory is merely dimmed, not removed, as that would also be detrimental to their ability to counter Sauron.

4. Tom Bombadil, a merry soul he may be, and deeply ancient. But he is not so far as we can tell angelic in nature nor does he come from Valinor. Nor is he listed as one of the few who came to know the true nature and origin of the Istari (that list being the White Council - which Bombadil was not ever part of) So there would be no way for him to teach Gandalf the ways of the Ainur or his status as a Servant of The Secret Fire/Iluvatar. Not to mention that even if Tom was in such a position it would be completely against his character to actually do this.

Apologies for the long ass post
Let my inner literature lecturer loose for a second there!

It's all interpretations. Just as your interpretation of Bombadil - his origins and nature are as intentionally undefined as are Ungoliant's. You cannot definitively say what Bombadil should or could know any more than the showmakers can.

It doesn't even matter - the books remains the books. This is a TV show. If you're going to pick at problems, pick a large one like the existence of Barrow Wights in the Second Age. But even that doesn't matter. It's just a show, and the only one of it's nature. Certainly not perfect, but I'll take it over the many decades of absolutely zero Tolkien lore inspired TV shows that preceded it.

 

[MeatHookGekko]

I watched the first three or four episodes of the first season and wondered how they could make Middle Earth so boring. After a few scenes of episode one of season 2 it was more of the same.

Utterly soul-less television. The writing, the characters, the CG… boring as batsh**

ROP could use some major battle sequences. Hundreds of dwarves killing tons of orcs. How this show could spend this much money and give no spectacle at all is kind of baffling.

 

[Alatar]

Just restating it, but I’m very okay with the writers taking some creative liberties or artistic license. I’m also not expecting Tolkien level quality to the writer’s efforts.

If I recall correctly Amazon’s deal with the Tolkien estate was that 1) the show must adhere with Tolkien’s canon, and 2) where some freedom exists to create new content they may as long do so just so long as it is consistent with what Tolkien established in his Legendarium.

So for example since Tolkien wrote in his 1958 letter the revision about the blue wizards actually arriving in the Second Age versus the Third, the writers are free to tell that story, including their travels and adventures in the East and South. To tell the tale of how they thwarted Sauron’s efforts to seduce the free peoples of Rhun and Harad to get them under his banner. And perhaps also including how it was said that they (or perhaps at least one of them) may have fallen into creating cults of dark magic in the East and forgot their mission, as Tolkien had first written about them arriving in the Third Age.

I’m hoping that the writers have combined the two narratives that Tolkien wrote about them. Alatar arrived first. He went to the East, got seduced by Sauron via his chief acolyte who has him using a palantir with Sauron at the other end cloaked in a different identity, shapeshifter and deceiver that he is. Pallando his Maiar friend was sent by Illuvatar to try to bring him back to his senses. But together they will both have to regain memory of their true mission and to identify and reject Sauron and his trickery.

Pallando’s relationship to Alatar would then be somewhat reminiscent of Sam’s relationship to Frodo.

 

[chrisstbh]

Just restating it, but I’m very okay with the writers taking some creative liberties or artistic license. I’m also not expecting Tolkien level quality to the writer’s efforts.

If I recall correctly Amazon’s deal with the Tolkien estate was that 1) the show must adhere with Tolkien’s canon, and 2) where some freedom exists to create new content they may as long do so just so long as it is consistent with what Tolkien established in his Legendarium.

So for example since Tolkien wrote in his 1958 letter the revision about the blue wizards actually arriving in the Second Age versus the Third, the writers are free to tell that story, including their travels and adventures in the East and South. To tell the tale of how they thwarted Sauron’s efforts to seduce the free peoples of Rhun and Harad to get them under his banner. And perhaps also including how it was said that they (or perhaps at least one of them) may have fallen into creating cults of dark magic in the East and forgot their mission, as Tolkien had first written about them arriving in the Third Age.

I’m hoping that the writers have combined the two narratives that Tolkien wrote about them. Alatar arrived first. He went to the East, got seduced by Sauron via his chief acolyte who has him using a palantir with Sauron at the other end cloaked in a different identity, shapeshifter and deceiver that he is. Pallando his Maiar friend was sent by Illuvatar to try to bring him back to his senses. But together they will both have to regain memory of their true mission and to identify and reject Sauron and his trickery.

Pallando’s relationship to Alatar would then be somewhat reminiscent of Sam’s relationship to Frodo.

Indeed. At the end of that day it's an adaptation, even Peter Jacksons movies were not strictly adherent to the books or lore. Christopher Tolkien hates those movies yet fans widely regard it as one of, if not, the best movie trilogies of all time.

It's also crazy to me that anyone could enjoy The Hobbit trilogy over this show because that strays even further than the LOTR trilogy.

I'm not a huge Tolkien nerd, my love is for the 3 movies and that's what I grew up with. I don't find this show to be utterly offensive. I did find the first season to be very lacking and overall a waste of time, but this season has been a huge improvement imo.

AFAIK they're taking a lot of things that were just one or two sentences in the lore and expanding them into a TV show.