The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power | Amazon Prime Video - September 2, 2022

[crows]

Good episode but that closing song was horrid.

it fit for the orcs it was a brutal orc battle cry song. it was an orc anthem of darkness

 

[pixletwin]

Whatever it was, it sucked (imo).

It just didn’t belong in M.E.

 

[Wor-Gar]

So episode 7 is the one to watch?

 

[crows]

So episode 7 is the one to watch?

it's got all the action.

 

[Sassafras]

Just started binging this. Gotta get through 7 and 8.

Overall, props for making S2 a whole lot better. The actors including Galadriel put their backs into it; so kudos for that. IMO the natural environments and design work, costumes etc. are all upgrades.

I'd even rewatch S2. So good job Amazon.

Not gonna say I don't cringe at the Tolkien memba berries and scenes that rip off both LOTR and the Hobbit. There's not much Tolkien here as opposed to being really expensive fan fiction. So much cringe including the giant gumball machine rings, making so much focus on RINGS, everything is about these RINGS and Celebrimbor WTF...tho hafta say Vicker's Sauron is creepily understated and effective. Huh.

I'll give credit too tho not sure it works - of coming up with reasons Celebrimbor behaves the way he does and tying that to Sauron being able to shapeshift reality as well as himself. Someone was trying when they wrote this.

Then there was the Venom black sludge...so much cringe. But yet, IMO it's pretty watchable too. Some effective grittiness besides the soap opera dramatics. Some IMO good interchanges like Galadriel and Adar. Some good fights including Galadriel. It's like someone read a LOT of Tolkien, threw it in a blender, and then dumped it out and spent millions on fan fiction. But I can see where the money went this season.

IMO this does not suck. Some stuff does like orc babies, but a fair amount doesn't. If you turn off the Jackson films, S2 is a reasonable story that has some good moments and is worth a watch.

 

[chrisstbh]

I really enjoyed this season. They really struck gold with Charlie Vickers as Sauron, stole every scene he was in. Celebrimbor’s actor was no slouch either.

The Orcs are fully bent to Saurons will now.

Spectacle wise it was really enjoyable too. The visuals are great. Obviously the designs draw inspiration from Jacksons films so they feel quite familiar but also new enough.

Still think S1 was mostly a nothingburger, but I was happily surprised at how much I enjoyed this season.

Look forward to seeing what else is to come now, seems like things are now finally in motion.

 

[ObiGlennKenobi]

Never posted in here at the start but did go to the S2 Premiere in Oz and took my daughter along.
We had such a blast and today was a great day to see the Finale and close the circle out.
Most of the Aussie acting contingent came out for it,so was lucky to meet Sauron and Nori and get some photos and some posters signed.

I'm no Tolkien expert,Star Wars is my jam,but I've enjoyed this series for what it is.

 

[ObiGlennKenobi]

 

[chrisstbh]

 

[Alatar]

Spoiler regarding the Stranger:

Spoiler: Spoiler

I’m definitely bummed that the Stranger is Gandalf versus a blue wizard. I get that it’s an adaptation for a TV series and that creative liberties can and should be taken where appropriate. But I distinctly recall that the deal that Amazon struck with the Tolkien estate is that the story of the series would faithfully follow Tolkien’s canon and not break it or deviate from it. And that where the series could be creative to fill out details and create more granular plot lines and arcs and so forth, it would be allowed to do so.

Tolkien never wrote that Gandalf, aka the Maiar named Olorin, incarnated in Middle Earth during the Second Age. He *did* however write in a letter in 1958 a revision to his earlier writing about the two blue wizards. He stated that he believed that they arrived during the Second Age rather than the Third. And he said that rather than falling into creating dark magic cults in the East and forgetting their mission, Alatar and Pallando likely played a decisive role in sufficiently thwarting Sauron’s efforts to seduce the free peoples of the East (Rhun) and South (Harad). Which essentially saved Middle Earth at that critical time!

That’s the story I wanted to see! That is per Tolkien’s writings.

I kinda don’t think we’re getting that. It’s looking like Gandalf (who per Tolkien’s canon wasn’t there in the Second Age) will play the role that Tolkien said the blues had. And the blues will be stereotypical evil wizards. Ugh. I’m very disappointed. I’ll probably be able to roll with it as I keep watching. But this is such a departure from canon that it’s actually breaking immersion for me.

 

[The Buffinator]

Spoiler regarding the Stranger:

Spoiler: Spoiler

I’m definitely bummed that the Stranger is Gandalf versus a blue wizard. I get that it’s an adaptation for a TV series and that creative liberties can and should be taken where appropriate. But I distinctly recall that the deal that Amazon struck with the Tolkien estate is that the story of the series would faithfully follow Tolkien’s canon and not break it or deviate from it. And that where the series could be creative to fill out details and create more granular plot lines and arcs and so forth, it would be allowed to do so.

Tolkien never wrote that Gandalf, aka the Maiar named Olorin, incarnated in Middle Earth during the Second Age. He *did* however write in a letter in 1958 a revision to his earlier writing about the two blue wizards. He stated that he believed that they arrived during the Second Age rather than the Third. And he said that rather than falling into creating dark magic cults in the East and forgetting their mission, Alatar and Pallando likely played a decisive role in sufficiently thwarting Sauron’s efforts to seduce the free peoples of the East (Rhun) and South (Harad). Which essentially saved Middle Earth at that critical time!

That’s the story I wanted to see! That is per Tolkien’s writings.

I kinda don’t think we’re getting that. It’s looking like Gandalf (who per Tolkien’s canon wasn’t there in the Second Age) will play the role that Tolkien said the blues had. And the blues will be stereotypical evil wizards. Ugh. I’m very disappointed. I’ll probably be able to roll with it as I keep watching. But this is such a departure from canon that it’s actually breaking immersion for me.

You're obviously well-versed on all things Tolkien but I'm guessing that 99% of viewers (myself included) are only familiar with The Hobbit and the LOTR trilogy and have never delved into his other writings. Given that, I think it's somewhat understandable to have

Spoiler

the Stranger be Gandalf in his early days, as Amazon is betting a lot on this show and he gives it some name recognition. Also, I don't recall any mention of an actual name for Ciaran Hinds' Dark Wizard, so perhaps we'll find out he's one of these blue wizards you mentioned and they're combining 2nd & 3rd Age events to flesh out the story?

 

[Sassafras]

Spoiler regarding the Stranger:

TBH the boring parts broke immersion for me. Finished this up last night.

For me it's a weird show; there's some genuinely enjoyable/impressive aspects, performances; interesting ideas;

at the same time it seems to meander about. Here and there I can see them striving for epicness and meaningful moments but most of the time, they don't land - at least not for me. It's like the genuinely interesting interchanges get lost somewhere. At the same time I can see where the money went.

IMO this has little to nothing to do with any Tolkien canon. It's more like someone read Tolkien and it inspired them to do some fan fiction with some cool costumes. Typical I guess for "modern times" a bit of "every one and every thing including orcs haves some good in them" so we're not talking the Uruk-hai being birthed from slime or Azog here.

Although, to be fair, even Gandalf mentions at the beginning (in Tolkien) that even Sauron didn't start off evil, so that for me was a different approach. E.g. some previously unexplored nuances were there. It's just a weird show - I mean, there are times I was asking why are they bothering with this plotline; other times I thought it was pretty cool. Plenty of cringe but some good stuff too. And kudos to the actors or maybe the direction was better.

 

[Alatar]

You're obviously well-versed on all things Tolkien but I'm guessing that 99% of viewers (myself included) are only familiar with The Hobbit and the LOTR trilogy and have never delved into his other writings. Given that, I think it's somewhat understandable to have the Stranger be Gandalf in his early days, as Amazon is betting a lot on this show and he gives it some name recognition. Also, I don't recall any mention of an actual name for Ciaran Hinds' Dark Wizard, so perhaps we'll find out he's one of these blue wizards you mentioned and they're combining 2nd & 3rd Age events to flesh out the story?

That’s true they haven’t named him yet. He could be Saruman. But from what I’ve read the ROP show runners have said it’s “highly improbable” that the Dark Wizard of Rhun is Saruman.

 

[The Buffinator]

That’s true they haven’t named him yet. He could be Saruman. But from what I’ve read the ROP show runners have said it’s “highly improbable” that the Dark Wizard of Rhun is Saruman.

IDK, weren't Saruman and Gandalf supposedly sent to Middle Earth at the same time? It seems the Dark Wizard was already there prior to The Stranger's arrival, so what the ROP show runners are saying tracks with that. But then Saruman should be popping up at some point too, unless they're conveniently ignoring his story.

 

[chrisstbh]

I don't see how it could be Saruman, wasn't he still a "good guy" until after The Hobbit?

 

[Alatar]

Tolkien originally wrote that the five Istari, who are Maiar (similar to archangels in Christianity), were all sent clothed in bodies of men in the year 1000 of the Third Age. Later in 1958 he revised that in a letter to say that he believed that the blue wizards (just those two) were sent earlier in the Second Age.

“Their task was to circumvent Sauron: to bring help to the few tribes of Men that had rebelled from Melkor-worship, to stir up rebellion ... and after his first fall to search out his hiding (in which they failed) and to cause [?dissension and disarray] among the dark East ... They must have had very great influence on the history of the Second Age and Third Age in weakening and disarraying the forces of East ... who would both in the Second Age and Third Age otherwise have ... outnumbered the West.”

Tolkien has also written however that Gandalf in his true form as Olorin appeared during the First Age. See here:

“Around the time of the Awakening of the Elves, Melian left Valinor after a warning in a dream.[5] Melian’s love for the trees brought her to Middle-earth, filling its silence with her and her birds’ voices.[4] After Oromë found the Elves in Cuiviénen, the Valar planned to make War against Melkor[6] and during their preparations, **they sent Melian to Cuiviénen, and then a group of great Maiar to guard the Elves.** Melian was their leader, the only female spirit among them.[1]”

And here:

“It was a group of great Maiar to guard the Elves meanwhile. They were Tarindor (later Saruman), **Olórin (Gandalf)**, Hrávandil (Radagast), Palacendo and Haimenar. They were led by Melian, who had travelled to Cuiviénen before the Five Guardians; she was the sixth Maiar guardian and was the only female spirit among them.[1]“

Cuiviénen was destroyed after the War of Wrath in the First Age. So Olorin appears in the First Age, yes. Second Age, no.

 

[Alatar]

IDK, weren't Saruman and Gandalf supposedly sent to Middle Earth at the same time? It seems the Dark Wizard was already there prior to The Stranger's arrival, so what the ROP show runners are saying tracks with that. But then Saruman should be popping up at some point too, unless they're conveniently ignoring his story.

Saruman, then as the Maiar Tarindor and not clothed in the body of an old man as Istari were, accompanied the Maiar Melian during the First Age to protect the elves of Cuiviénen. But otherwise as an Istari or wizard he incarnates in 1000 of the Third Age. The events of the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings takes place 3001-3019. Anyway, Saruman first traveled East and spent a lot of time there.

But if the show is going to place Gandalf in the Second Age I wouldn't be surprised at all if it does so for Saruman as well. It's breaking canon for Gandalf so they might as well do it for Saruman. But the show runners have said it's "highly, highly, highly improbable" that the Dark Wizard is Saruman. I'm sure we will see Saruman. But evidently the Dark Wizard of Rhun is a blue. The Dark Wizard says five Istari were sent, so it appears Saruman, Radagast, Alatar, and Pallando are all there as well.

 

[Alatar]

A redditor on a ROP subreddit is making the following case for Olorin in appearing in the Second Age as well:

This is kind of my point, Tolkien has multiple canonical events that contradict one another and they are all under the guise of ‘legends say’ there is zero information on ‘facts’.

From Unfinished Tales - “…Olórin (who was known in Middle-earth as Mithrandir) brought it with him out of the West. And on a time Olórin came to Galadriel, who dwelt now under the trees of Greenwood the Great….. And when Olórin had told her many tidings she sighed, and said: ‘I grieve in Middle-earth, for leaves fall and flowers fade; and my heart yearns, remembering trees and grass that do not die. I would have these in my home.’ Then Olórin said: ‘Would you then have the Elessar?’ ….And he held before her the Elessar, and she looked on it and wondered. And Olórin said: ‘This I bring to you from Yavanna. Use it as you may, and for a while you shall make the land of your dwelling the fairest place in Middle-earth….“

Now it’s important to first acknowledge that Galadriel did not yet have her ring in this text. It’s also important to acknowledge that Gandalf had the Ellesar in this text which would have been recovered when Earendil went to Valinor at the end of the first age. So Gandalf had to be present in the second age. In order to be between these timelines.

I think it’s best to view the chronology as this. Olorin was in the first age watching over the elves as they first awoke, likely either disguised as an elf or invisible but returned to Valinor. After the fall of Morgoth, Olorin likely returned to Middle Earth in the second age to converse with the remaining leaders of the elves and offered Galadriel the elf stone to hold off the fading but upon learning of or dealing with Sauron’s power and creation of the rings returned again to Valinor. It is then that he is picked by Manwe and Varda due to his fear of Sauron’s strength and his love for those whom he already interacted found him to be the most sympathetic and intelligent on the matter. He then arrives again in middle earth where Cirdan gives him Narya to help him with his journey.

I think that maybe the writers perhaps did their stretch from what this guy is arguing. But when I study it on Tokiengateway.net it says Gandalf gave Galdadriel the Elfstone aka Ellesar, a broach with elven healing powers, during the Third Age.

It says here of the Ellesar:

A legend says that when the Wizards were sent from Valinor to Middle-earth in the Third Age, Olórin brought back Eärendil’s jewel as a token from Yavanna that the Valar had not forsaken them; as Gandalf, he gave it to Galadriel, and remarked prophetically that she would only hold it for a little while, before she passed it to another, who will also be called Elessar.

 

[chrisstbh]

But the real answer is that it's a TV show and the timeline has been condensed in order to make events play out well for TV. The events that this show is covering take place over decades and centuries which just doesn't work for a show.