THE THIRD ACT: What a third in the Batman Begins, Dark Knight series might be...

[Just A Freak]

So in essence, Batman would start off as the "villain" in the 3rd. As Harvey says, you either die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the villain.

 

[Entropy]

Why have a villain?

Got to sell more swag! That means a new Batmobile, probably another new suit, maybe a Batplane, and of course a couple new villains.

They're expected and pretty much required by the audience. A Batman movie without a member of his rogues gallery will never be greenlit.

I agree they'll have to go a different route with the 3rd, so that's why I'm thinking Catwoman as she's got a completely different dynamic than any of his other rivals.

 

[Just A Freak]

If Nolan wants to do a movie w/o a villain at this point, WB won't care. That's how much money he's made them. He resurrected a dead in the pan franchise w/ his 1st Bat flick. Made decent profit, and now his sequel is setting box office records. They will do anything he asks at this point. You could have minor villains, but don't make it the emphasis of the film like in TDK. No one can hold their own. Catwoman? In Nolan's Gotham? Would take one hell of a re-imagining for her to be a threat in this sadistic, "world without rules" that Nolan has created. She'd get eaten alive. That's why I'd have a hard time seeing a Catwoman or a young child sidekick surviving this heightened reality. Make Batman a psuedo villain, and have maybe a new created villain ala the Phantasm who is a new vigilante in Gotham since everyone now hates Batman. And Batman has to bring to light how the new vigilante is killing people, etc. And Bats has to clear his name. Something like that. Similar to Batman Year Two w/ the Reaper. But let Nolan create his own bad vigilante.

 

[Agent0028]

I don't know that people would hate Batman. The people who he gets pinned with killing were crooked cops and bad guys, so I think there are people in Gotham who still wouldn't have a problem.

Could someone expand on this whole idea of Batman as a villain? I'm a little puzzled by that one. And him versus the SWAT team was basically in the last part of TDK.

I really like the idea of a completely new villain, that would be cool.

 

[Lord Aykroyd]

As Batman = the villain, you really just need to read Year One or 'Legends of the Dark Night' #11-15 the PREY story line. It is Batman versus the police and the city media. The idea seeps out that Batman is in it all for fame and glory and that he is a killer and a madman.

They are fantastic comics! PREY pretty well follows the Year One continuity perfectly.

They also both have Nolan-like realistic villains.

 

[Entropy]

I'm just saying that the tone of the third film shouldn't be as dark as the second. Sure there needs to be the big threat to Gotham, Batman and Bruce stuff but it needs to be a redemption story as opposed to TDK as a corruption (or anti-corruption I suppose) story. The choice of villains should reflect that in someway.

 

[Kabukiman]

The more I hear "no villian" the more intrigued I get.

Make Batman the "villian." Explore Gordon some more (please!) and his continued relationship with Gotham's most wanted. Maybe change Robin's origin story to fit this. What if Dick Grayson swore to bring Batman to justice?

It could be great.

 

[Starkiller]

The Riddler is pretty lame and only translates well in the comics and the Shumacerverse.

Ras returning is crap, same goes for his daughter.

The Joker being recast is sacrilege...just use some CG work to cameo Ledger's Joker pitching in to the mayhem from the walls of Arkham if you have to.

Bane is crap, even in the comics, and Manbat is too much of a stretch for Nolan's Gotham.

The Penguin could work, but they've done the whole "crime families" thing to death now. It's time to consider some ulterior motives.

Definitely bring Two-Face back.

Catwoman in the Nolanverse would be great.

But I'm really dying to see what Nolan could do with the Ventriloquist or Clayface.

So wait the Riddler wouldn't work? A guy who is super smart and intelligent that would use his mind or matter to fight the bat.

But a man made of clay works for you?

Your minds is broken me thinks.....

 

[Starkiller]

So in essence, Batman would start off as the "villain" in the 3rd. As Harvey says, you either die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the villain.

I think that line applied more to foreshadowing what happened to Harvey Dent...he didn't die, and he became a villain. Simple.

 

[Riko]

Penguin, a ruthless and short crime boss in the Nolan universe...

And someone like Johnny Depp might could take on Heath's Joker mantle...maybe....it is possible for someone else to play him you know. Maybe not as well, or differently, but possible...

1) nolan does not want to cast pinguin, look at wikipedia and what Nolan said about the character...


2) why re-cast Ledger WHY recast somebody that was good just for the sake of it?
Nobody can replace ledger, Ledger is dead, and replacing the actor who played the the best villain ever is just disrespectful towards Ledger, thats like raping his memory...

only situation where there can be a joker that is ledger => some unused joker-material being used in the third movie. Nolan did want to make a 180minute feature but WB called him back, so that might be an option to see Ledger again as the joker...

 

[Riko]

Why have a villain? There isn't a realistic, gritty enough character to make from the remaining villains in the rogues that is as compelling, threatning, and visceral as the Joker, Two-Face, Ra's Al Ghul, or the Scarecrow. Go a different route, make Batman the villain from the start. Fights the GPD and SWAT things like that, and have it be like BEGINS more of a character piece film where he's fighting to clear his name. No villain on earth is topping Heath Ledger's sick anarchic realistic take on the Joker, it doesn't get any better than that. Steer clear and go a different route.

couldn't agree more + let two face make his moves. and that's it

 

[Riko]

The Riddler is pretty lame and only translates well in the comics and the Shumacerverse.

I agree, the riddler is just a lame version of the Joker if you are honest.

and the joker in TDK already had this riddler-like doings, leaving clues (the cards, the bullet, nametag,...)

and most important how can a figure like the riddler top Ledgers Joker? it seems impossible, I do not say it will not be done for sure, but it seems very impossible, they would make it to hard for themselves to make a movie that would even come near TDK..so they should let the riddler out and play safe!

 

[Starkiller]

I think we can do a character piece while having another strong villain, and why does every villain need to be compared to Ledger's Joker? His Joker shows you can cast unexpected actors in roles that are familiar and have the end result be amazing. His performance shouldn't hinder other actors from taking roles in the movie as villains.

I would prefer The Riddler or the Penguin maybe...

My choice for the Penguin: Phillips Seymour Hoffman

My choice for the Riddler: Jackie Earle Haley

 

[RJMacReady16]

So wait the Riddler wouldn't work? A guy who is super smart and intelligent that would use his mind or matter to fight the bat.

But a man made of clay works for you?

Your minds is broken me thinks.....

Easy with casting those stones, friend. You might hit someone.

But seriously---what could they cover with the Riddler's "super intelligence" and "diabolical plans" that they didn't already master in TDK with the Joker?

And in the Nolan universe Clayface probably wouldn't be a "man made of clay"---but there's certainly an interesting story to tell there.

You can have your rock back, btw.

 

[Kabukiman]

My choice for the Penguin: Phillips Seymour Hoffman

That's funny. Here's the Nolan quote Riko referenced earlier:

"'I'd be more excited to have Philip Seymour Hoffman in the film than to have the Penguin. There are certain characters that are easier to mesh with the more real take on Batman we're doing. The Penguin would be tricky."

 

[Starkiller]

Easy with casting those stones, friend. You might hit someone.

But seriously---what could they cover with the Riddler's "super intelligence" and "diabolical plans" that they didn't already master in TDK with the Joker?

And in the Nolan universe Clayface probably wouldn't be a "man made of clay"---but there's certainly an interesting story to tell there.

You can have your rock back, btw.

Well there's always different motives. The Joker wanted to cause chaos and show that humanity underneath all the nice and neat stuff was just as chaotic, selfish, and harsh as he was. And he needed Batman to bounce off of, that sort of love/hate relationship.

Edward Nigma is different, for one he's not a psychopathic killer. He's very cunning, cold and calculating. The Joker and Riddler have always been similar in some aspects but that dones't make them exact copies. The Riddler does not need to be played like the Joker at all...and who knows what kind of twist Nolan could put on him? The Riddler is obsessed with intelligence and the mind. So I'm sure he'd want to be able to outsmart the bat or get into his mind and find out what makes him tick.

In terms of the Clay Face thing, a lot of Batman villains have interesting storylines but being able to pull them off and clay face's would be unrealistic, what would he do another fall from grace story like Dent? A well known popular actor gets disfigured and goes on a rampage because he is angry to get revenge? I'm sure we won't ever see Clayface.

In terms of Phillips Seymour playing the Penguin looks like I and Nolan have similar tastes.

 

[Just A Freak]

I think that line applied more to foreshadowing what happened to Harvey Dent...he didn't die, and he became a villain. Simple.

Dent did die a "hero" because Batman took the blame for Two-Faces murders.

No ... the line applied to Batman. That's why he re-iterates it at the end to Gordon. "I could do those things ... cause I'm not a hero" ... and remember the whole Roman Empire analogy to Ceasar? LOL ...

I mean the film had some deep meanings, but were you paying attention?

"You'll condem me ... sick the dogs on me ..."

"Cause he can take it."

Batman is the hero and the villain. Gordon knows he's the hero, but he took on the wrap for the muder of those people. So the citizens want his head even more. It was building to this the entire time. The citizens were mad because he created this Joker.

Batman is the "villain" now ... the 3rd film should be about his redemption. And Batman fighting cops and criminals has always been awesome. Afterall, he is an anti-hero and a vigilante.

 

[Just A Freak]

couldn't agree more + let two face make his moves. and that's it

Well Two-Face has been confirmed dead by the screen writer, producer, and director. Yes they could write him back in but technically it wouldn't make sense. They wrote a reaslitic psychology to this character. He's not gonna flip a coin and decide to rob the 2nd bank of Gotham on the 2nd anniversary of the day Batman captured him. haha

That's cartoonified crap. This character was more real. As you saw, he just wanted to revenge on the other members of the triumverate pack that vowed to save Gotham. Gordon specifically. And if you remember, he doesn't want to survive now. He lost Rachel, and he lost half his face on the behalf that Gordon didn't follow through on Dent's accusations of corrupt cops in his unit.

Two-Face's story arc is done. It's a tragedy, leave it at that. If he were alive, there would be no point in Batman taking his wrap. And Batman taking Dent's wrap was the most selfless, heroic act I've ever seen from one of these "superheroes" in these comic book movies.

 

[Starkiller]

Dent did die a "hero" because Batman took the blame for Two-Faces murders.

No ... the line applied to Batman. That's why he re-iterates it at the end to Gordon. "I could do those things ... cause I'm not a hero" ... and remember the whole Roman Empire analogy to Ceasar? LOL ...

I mean the film had some deep meanings, but were you paying attention?

"You'll condem me ... sick the dogs on me ..."

"Cause he can take it."

Batman is the hero and the villain. Gordon knows he's the hero, but he took on the wrap for the muder of those people. So the citizens want his head even more. It was building to this the entire time. The citizens were mad because he created this Joker.

Batman is the "villain" now ... the 3rd film should be about his redemption. And Batman fighting cops and criminals has always been awesome. Afterall, he is an anti-hero and a vigilante.

I have no problem with the third film being his redemption, BUT the line still applies to Two-Face, no matter IF Batman took the blame for him or not...He did live long enough to see himself become the villain, and he died a villain...trying to kill an innocent child of a once so called friend. No matter if all of Gotham thinks he was the noble white knight, he still became and died as a villain.

Batman is though generally good at heart. He fights the cops because they fight him, he doesn't want to harm them we all know that. I have no problem with Batman fighting for redemption and the cops, etc...as long as their is a major villain from his rogues gallery and by the end he's neutral again, not an enemy of the police, but not an entire friend..because he always has been a vigilante like you said.

 

[ProgMatinee]

I'm not a comic reader, so I don't know how the character is written currently, but I think the Riddler as an opposite to Ledger's chaotic Joker would be interesting.

Someone funny, but with wryness and distinct preciseness in his delivery, extending to the preciseness of the crimes. Someone that almost overthinks and overplans his moves. Maybe even a slave to compulsiveness. Not a sicko "that just wants to watch the world burn" like the Joker, rather someone that can justify his compulsiveness and almost make the audience understand and symphathize and like him.

Kinda like a bad (NOT EVIL) version of Tony Shalhoub's "Monk" character. Someone so witty and eccentric that he's likable. (Shalhoub would be masterful in the role as well).

Maybe even acting in a "Robin Hood" like role for a while to get the people of Gotham on his side. Bruce Wayne gets framed for something against the city and somehow gets ripped off, so Bruce involves his Batman alterego to satisfy Bruce's own arrogance and ego and tries to take the Riddler down and make the Bruce identity look great and ends up alienating the citizens.

When The Riddler eventually ups the ante and kills one of Gotham's other beloved philathropers (or something), the fickle Gotham citizens turn and its Batman to the rescue, redeeming himself and Bruce in the process.