THE THIRD ACT: What a third in the Batman Begins, Dark Knight series might be...

[Starkiller]

I've made my feelings known...I want The Riddler, Penguin, Bane or Catwoman...in the third one. IMHO they are the 4 that would fit the best in the Nolan universe and be the most interesting.

 

[Agent0028]

I think the line about becoming a villain applied to Two-Face. There's no way that wasn't a bit of foreshadowing. However I think it also applies to Batman, except I think it applies to him in his struggle to not become the villain. Like not continuing to use his cell phone spy machine, not killing the Joker, etc. And I don't think it would be wrong to say the quote applies to the end of the movie either. The line, and what it was intended to mean reminds me of T. S. Eliot responding, "I didn't then, but I do now." When asked if he meant his poem The Wasteland in all the various ways it has been interpreted. And like most good poetry I think the meaning behind this line lies within whatever the viewer wants it to mean.

 

[Just A Freak]

No, it doesn't dude ... for the love of christ. Dent dies (the hero), Batman (lives long enough to be the villain) and as Batman states. Sometimes the truth isn't enough, people sometimes deserve more.

Ceasar was the civilian appointed to defend the Roman Empire, who later wouldn't relinquish his power and was corrupted.

We the audience, Jim Gordon, and Batman know he didn't commit the murders ... but the battle was over the hearts, souls, and ideals of the people of Gotham whom they were trying to inspire their city to take back on their own through the symbol of these two pillars of hope (The White Knight - Dent, and The Dark Knight - Batman) ...

The line of dialogue as it applies

You either die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the villain

Is meant for both Dent and Wayne. Dent dies a hero to the public, so they don't lose hope (thus the memorial announcing he was Gotham's hero) ... and Batman who was already being condemed for his vigilantism after the Joker killings, takes the wrap for Dent's murders so the people of Gotham don't lose hope. Thus, Batman takes on the villain role in order to save the city.

The whole dilemma was should Batman be the hero he wants to be, or the one Gotham needs right now. At that point, they needed Harvey a public figure as a hero, and to do that selfless heroic act of letting Dent be the hero ... Batman takes the blame for the murdered cops and mob bosses.

 

[Starkiller]

I agree with agent more. It's totally meant to foreshadow Dent become Two-Face. He didn't die a hero (didn't die when captured by the Joker's men) and he lived long enough to see himself become the villain. This doesn't mean this quote can't apply to Batman as well...but it is first and foremost meant to apply to Dent. Him delivering the line had some much irony, despair, and heaviness...we all knew what was about to happen to him.

 

[Entropy]

I think you can apply that line to just about everyone in the movie. Every one from the Batman, Dent, the cops, the people on the ferry, it's all about being tested by corruption.

A great second act. It's always darkest before the dawn - that's why the third act should be the dawn, every thing should point to a redemption story, for Bruce to accept that he must be Batman, that he cannot or doesn't want to stop, that is no longer hunted by the police and that they reinstate the Batsignal by the end of the story. Don't try to outdo TDK in terms of darkness or matching the Joker, take it someplace else. What villain would best serve a redemption story? That can even be redeemed? Two Face is the first I think of, but Catwoman skating the line between good & bad also comes to mind.

The Joker and Two Face do cast a long shadow and I'm sure Nolan will acknowledge that in the third film somehow, whether it's with cameos or just in dialogue, as they tied up the Scarecrow being loose in TDK.

 

[Just A Freak]

It affects both of them, and yes to some degree its forshadowing but it's maninly about Batman. That's why the film is called The Dark Knight, and why the movie is ENCAPSULATED by Gordon's monolouge at the end.

Harvey's delivering the line to Bruce, when they're talking about the Batman at the resteraunt. At the end of the film Batman is viewed as the bad guy. It doesn't mean he is the bad guy. He's actually the hero, "the one Gotham deserves, but doesn't need right now."

I think you're reffering to how it can be viewed as Dent didn't die a hero after Joker attempts to blow both him and Rachel to pieces ... then yes, he does live long enough to become the villain. But at the same time it applies ultimately to the Batman as well. This film's core revolved around The White Knight and The Dark Knight. Batman lived long enough to see himself become to the villain, and Harvey died a hero (even though he wasn't after his tragic accident) ...

 

[Agent0028]

No, it doesn't dude ...

I'm at a loss for words.

 

[ProgMatinee]

I don't see why the 3rd film has to be so concluding sounding as a redemption story makes it sound. Where are you after the redemption? If there's another film do you reboot the franchise again?

I think the third film should be as self contained as possible.

 

[preeny101]

If we are lucky; next film:

THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS

Joker dies in the beginning, anyway.

 

[Just A Freak]

I don't see why the 3rd film has to be so concluding sounding as a redemption story makes it sound. Where are you after the redemption? If there's another film do you reboot the franchise again?

No, just treat it like the comic books do and now the way film makers are. Let a new artist just tell a story and use any characters he wants. Whether they are dead or alive in either the Burton, Shumacher, or Nolan franchise.

Just do your own thing, and tell a great story using whatever characters you want.

The reason this is a "franchise" is because Nolan and Goyer had the idea of a 2-3 picture story arc.

Create your own continuity, the way LL did for The Incredible Hulk, and the way Nolan did for Batman Begins, The Dark Knight.

 

[Just A Freak]

Don't try to outdo TDK in terms of darkness or matching the Joker, take it someplace else. What villain would best serve a redemption story?

That's what I was saying ...

You could actually have "Mr. Reese" as a realistic form of the Riddler within a business situation that challenges Bruce Wayne from a business, day to day life during the day. The Riddler could be sort of a terrorizing business perspective. As sort of like a shady business man. That would be a realistic spin. He could be Bruce Wayne's hurdle to deal with. And maybe "Mr. Reese" aka Mystery aka the Riddler ??? ... haha, has help from a new mob boss looking to pick up the rest of the pieces of Gotham's open underworld landscape.

You could use Black Mask, or have Mr. Cobbelpot, a british arms dealer who sells big time weapons on the black market and has them distributed secretly through "Mr. Reese" and these new weapons are used to create havoc in Gotham?

As for Batman? I definetely think there should be a new lone capable vigilante that can match Batman physically in terms of fighting and intelligence that breaks onto the scene of Gotham. His motivation is that he tries to take up the mantle of hero after Batman being viewed as the villain after the events of The Dark Knight. And Batman has to expose him as a murderer, using his detective skills or something of that effect.

You could have this vigilante be the Catwoman, but like I said, you'd be hard pressed to come with and interesting re-telling for Catwoman that seems realistically credible with a real psychology to it ... all while making her threatning enough to be taken seriously in Christopher Nolan's super bleek world he's created.

Another noteworthy villain that I think could be made realistically and creepy in Nolan's universe is "Mad Hatter." Basically what I'd do to make him realistic is turn the volume way up on his pedophilic nature, and you'd have one creepy ass villain. Almost as shock worthy as the Joker from The Dark Knight.

But these are all just some loose ideas I'd have. We'll see if Nolan even wants to do it first. But if he does, he'll choose characters based on themes, and the underlying story he wants to tell that has deeper meaning and relevance.

 

[Starkiller]

If we are lucky; next film:

THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS

Joker dies in the beginning, anyway.

LOL, clever title.

My friend was like yea I hope they stick with the Batman nicknames and call the next one "The Caped Crusader" I almost threw up in my mouth as how bad that sounds and doesn't apply to Batman except his 1960's incarnation.



In a third movie I feel we need all loose ends to be tied up, like Batman sort of getting back on the city's good side...not fully but enough not to be a wanted man who is hunted down. I feel Nolan only needs to do a trilogy, if done right this could be THE Batman trilogy. As the last Batman, Returns, and Forever were all all over the place. This would be the first time an actor played Batman three times in a row on the big screen and the same director made all three as well.

I feel if they kept going with this current franchise it would get stale. I'm sure Nolan doesn't want to be directing Batman films forever nor does Bale want to be pigeon holed as Batman forever...

 

[wofford29]

Nolan has never cast a nobody in a major role in any of his films. It's highly unlikely the guy that was Mr. Reese would turn into the Riddler in a 3rd film.

 

[Just A Freak]

Not if the Riddler's role were to be that significant. Which it might not anyway. BTW, I'd like to add that Cillian Murphy was virtually an un-known when he was originally cast (actually trying out for the role of Batman) ...

 

[Starkiller]

Nolan has never cast a nobody in a major role in any of his films. It's highly unlikely the guy that was Mr. Reese would turn into the Riddler in a 3rd film.

Yea...

I do want the Riddler though, he's obsessed with finding Batman's identity, and in the cops are after Batman and the man behind the mask. "Who is Batman?" Is the greatest riddle of all, so if he discovers him the cops can move in and take out Burce/Batman leaving the mob to overrun the city again. And if the Riddler strikes up a deal woth the remaining mob bosses...the plot falls into place.

 

[Duckgoo]

My idea for the Dark Knight Returns:

Main Villain - Talia, Ra's daughter.
Storyline - Talia takes over Ra's organization and proceeds to:
(1) Avenge Ra's death at the hands of the Batman.
(2) Continue Ra's wish to destroy Gotham.
(3) Fall in love with Batman towards the end of the film.
(4) Someone mentioned it here, but the Joker was hired by Talia to destroy Gotham but fails, so Talia steps in to finish the job.

Batman redeems his reputation by saving Gotham from Talia, and they fall in love during their struggle resulting in the birth of his son at the end of the film. This could set up a fourth film about the son of Batman.

OK, flame away....

 

[Starkiller]

My idea for the Dark Knight Returns:

Main Villain - Talia, Ra's daughter.
Storyline - Talia takes over Ra's organization and proceeds to:
(1) Avenge Ra's death at the hands of the Batman.
(2) Continue Ra's wish to destroy Gotham.
(3) Fall in love with Batman towards the end of the film.
(4) Someone mentioned it here, but the Joker was hired by Talia to destroy Gotham but fails, so Talia steps in to finish the job.

Batman redeems his reputation by saving Gotham from Talia, and they fall in love during their struggle resulting in the birth of his son at the end of the film. This could set up a fourth film about the son of Batman.

OK, flame away....

No. I'm sick of everyone wanting to destroy Gotham. For me an intention behind the Joker's chaos would sort of tarnish the character. Batman having son....not a big fan of it. Flame on!

 

[Entropy]

I don't see why the 3rd film has to be so concluding sounding as a redemption story makes it sound. Where are you after the redemption? If there's another film do you reboot the franchise again?

I think the third film should be as self contained as possible.

I'm sure they will try to make a fourth, fifth etc Batman with Bale and Nolan, I think Nolan only wants to make one more, plus the classical 3 act structure is about resolution, with wrongs of acts 1 and 2 being set right. It just ends with Batman as guardian of Gotham in front of the signal. You could still have another in the series with Batman fighting whoever, the third film would just wrap up the things introduced in the first two films, namely Bruce's coming to terms with being Batman and the sacrifices that come with that. He wanted to retire the costume and have this other life with Rachel, now he's wanted by the police and she's dead. Bruce has got to deal with those conflicts of how long will I be Batman?

I can't imagine that they would leave Batman hunted by the police at the end of the third movie the way he will be at the beginning. I'm sure the Batsignal will return at the end. I think we'll also see the new Batcave and Wayne manor rebuilt as well and the new Batmobile and other new vehicle. Also, probably a new suit.

My question is if Nolan doesn't return for a 4th Batman will Bale return? I think I read him saying that he'd be back as long as they wanted him. What about Oldman, Freeman, Caine etc. returning, or will they recast everyone else and continue in the same tone Nolan established or relaunch completely fresh or move on to something else like a Bats/Superman movie or Justice League?

 

[wofford29]

Not if the Riddler's role were to be that significant. Which it might not anyway. BTW, I'd like to add that Cillian Murphy was virtually an un-known when he was originally cast (actually trying out for the role of Batman) ...

Cillian Murphy unknown? If you lived under a bridge maybe.

 

[ProgMatinee]

Cillian Murphy unknown? If you lived under a bridge maybe.

I must still be under a bridge.