Thanks for that JAWS. That was a juicy post, demanding a response. Kinda under pressure here though as I really should be going to bed but I know that trying to type a reply in work tomorrow would be an intensely frustrating experience.
LOL that is what I am doing now.
Well. No eye-rolling moments in T1? I dunno about that. It's hard for me to be objective about it because I don't just love T2, I also love T1. I don't even argue that T2 is better than T1. I argue against T1 elitism which comes across as dismissive of T2 and in some people's cases to the point that they rule T2 out of canon
Rule T2 out of Canon??? I did not know it got that bad... That is just crazy talk... I will admit that.
T1 has lines like ''I came across time for you Sarah. I love you, I always have'' and ''In the few hours we had together, we loved a lifetime's worth''. How are these less cheesy than any of Sarah's lines in T2? If only Lar'ja had never seen these films before, he'd be able to tell us what we should cringe at but don't because of our nostalgia goggles
I guess my eyes don't role as much with those lines because the delivery is better. Many of the lines I find over the top in T2 have as much to do with delivery then anything else. My biggest complaint of T1 is the whole "falling in love" after a few hours together and some quick sex.
Speaking of Sarah's lines in T2 - much of what I'm guessing are considered the cheesier lines such as ''if a machine, a Terminator, can learn the value of human life maybe we can too'', those are narration. They're not gonna be casual, colloquial lines with no oomph of any kind. Perhaps they shouldn't have had Sarah narrating? But why not? It takes up where T1 left off with her making that tape for John. Furthermore if that line's offence is what it says about the T-800 - the T-800 didn't learn the value of human life. That was just Sarah projecting humanity onto a machine that was only reacting to various things it had observed and obeyed but felt nothing about.
I don't mind Sarah's narration. I think almost any line can be delivered as long as it's delivered well. Lines like the "215 Bones, Creating life, Miles Dyson.. She is going to Blow him away" etc... Drive me crazy because of the poor delivery.
Hence T-800's own line ''I know now why you cry, but its something I can never do''. But it was permissible for sentimental Sarah to say this. Granted, perhaps Cameron could have dropped that final piece of narration altogether, was it strictly necessary given what had just gone before....maybe not. I'm trying to imagine the film jumping right into the credits after T-800's thumbsup hand disappears and you see Sarah comforting John. Maybe that could have been done.
Again I don't mind the narration.
As for her actual dialogue within the film, probably the standout piece is when she's lecturing Dyson - ''you think you're so creative, you don't know what its like to actually create a life, to feel it growing inside you'' - but Cameron was aware of how this line would come across and even has John interject with a rolleyes. This is simply how he deliberately wrote Sarah, and I'm not sure its inconsistent with T1 really. She doesn't completely become a hard@$$ ******, she carries forward female sentiments and so on.
Cameron wrote Sarah as a Hard ass like Ripley... Problem is Linda Hamilton is not Sigourney Weaver (Well perhaps she is = to weaver in Avatar blah). Weaver could deliver those macho lines in Aliens and it felt real. Linda does it in T2 and most of the time my skin crawls.
The action is great. Does it seem more staged, contrived and showy? Yes. But the key thing is the hero is now a Terminator. He can do things and take risks that Kyle Reese wouldn't have been able to do. So it's not implausible in that way that the action gets bigger. He can speed his bike right up the inside of a truck that threatens to crush him into the wall. His machine brain can judge the relative speeds and know that he'll make it through etc etc. Is there less excitement because we know he's a machine and will come through alive? Why should there be less excitement? The hero character will always survive, human or not, as per the conventions of fiction. At least till the very end. You're supposed to just enjoy watching it happen.
I have no issues with the action being bigger. For me personally I just don't find it as exciting. Perhaps that is because our Human actors have a Terminator to fight a Terminator and a human to fight one. To me the threat felt more real in T1.. But that could be because of the Tone of the film being more Horror like rather then just Sci Fi / action.
That kinda brings me to another point - T2 as a blockbuster. Yes it is one, much moreso than T1. Many T1 advocates boast this as a victory in itself for T1, that T1's limited budget and constraints innately make it a superior film because....isn't that hip or something. Ehhh,
That is not the way I feel about the film... This was just me comparing the two. Just for the record. Those kind of arguments drive me crazy no matter what genre of film we are talking about.
I don't see why that ought to be so. It is the case with the Star Wars prequels when compared with the originals but that's because the SW prequels have sweet **** all else to redeem them pardon my language. They are crap films in almost every respect. Their higher production values just aren't enough and their portrayal of Anakin Skywalker, the main character, is just woeful. They utterly fail to convey what is supposed to be the 'tragic' turn to the dark side of said main character. Cameron knew what he was making with T2 and he achieved his goal spectacularly. Can that be denied? No.
Well a director achieving a goal is not always a good thing.... Even if they do so spectacularly. I view Aliens more as that perfect goal. I see T2 as a dropping of the ball. But that is just personal tastes.
Even today it holds up as a blockbuster as much as T1 holds up as a lower budget horror/sci-fi. Why should T2 upping the ante be a bad thing where it apparently isn't a bad thing for Aliens? Why should there be any real problem with it as long as, just like Aliens, storywise and characterwise its pretty consistent with the original film? Aliens expands on the creature and the character of Ripley. T2 takes Sarah and the T-800 into new territory and it does so plausibly. Even Dr Silberman gets a great expanded role.
For Me Aliens does everying you stated well. T2? Not so much. I never had issues with it being bigger in scale. I just find the film to be less exciting and not as engaging as the original.
ALIENS is the perfect example of doing it right.... Script, Actors, Direction, and being bigger... T2 stumbles on much of that. For me anyways.
Some people just don't like Arnold playing the good guy, fine, but that doesn't mean it wasn't done well. You can simply have a preference for what you want to see. Arnold as villain Terminator - watch T1. Arnold as reprogrammed Terminator - watch T2.
Not an issue for me.. I give the film credit for making Robert Patrick a threat to him.
All the one-liners - true T2 started it (which T3 unfortunately felt the need to continue and so will T5 most likely) but as I've always said T2 has a plausible reason to have the T-800 coming out with this stuff. He's under the instruction of a 10 year old boy.
The Directors cut saved this idea..... I HATED IT in the original cut... It made no sense. But the chip scene saved that. Still "I need a vacation" is bad in any film but it is really bad in this one and does not fit the drama of the situation.
T
-800 not killing? - happenstance that he didn't kill anyone up until he was about to kill the jocks. It can be rationalised. The fact that its not what one might have preferred is incidental to the fact that there is nothing wrong or contradictory in how it plays out. You can still prefer T1 for its killing but it is not grounds for dismissing T2 as part of the canon or anything. (not saying you're doing that JAWS but other people do) Khev did have an interesting point about how Cameron could have made T2 more edgy if in fact the T-800 DID kill people at the bar only to subsequently be ordered not to do it anymore.
yeah that is not my complaint.... However I don't think he killed anyone at the bar either... Just stuck a knife in a guys shoulder and beat the other one up. Just saying... A T2 fan should know that
Maybe, but - I guess this goes without saying - that it didn't play like this doesn't bother me in the slightest. Cameron didn't want to blur the good guy/bad guy lines to that extent. He was making a summer blockbuster sequel, capitalising on Arnold's by then major star power. The movie had 2 major gimmicks - Arnold's Terminator playing the hero role and Robert Patricks T-1000 and all the amazing new special effects that character brought (much as the T-800 effects were new back in '84). Plus the T-1000, as the villain, killed plenty of people in violent ways. Lucas done ****ed up in a big way. Cameron didn't. He made exactly what he wanted to make and audiences responded exactly how he wanted them to respond. T1 and T2 are both excellent at what they are. There is no 'best' really. There is ''I prefer''.
like I said.. This does not bother me.. I was not aware that people were so dismissive about the film. That is a bit much. Even though I feel the quality drops from T1 to T2 it's not like it's worthless. Anyways T1 is a classic 10 out of 10 for me. T2 is a good 7 out of 10.
Anyway, tis late. Actually its early.
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Good Morning
