*BEWARE SPOILERS* Alien: Romulus
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MeatHookGekko
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How much of the second wind that Alien 3 got in terms of fans giving it another look/rewatch came from David Fincher's other successes?
If Fincher had faceplanted, had not had the same success, would Alien 3 be taken in the same context as many others today? Another factor is the sheer volume of original content, films, the footprint of foreign films changing in America, all the competition from social media content and video games, all of that, would Alien 3 have even had the same breathing room to get another viewing by fans?
When Alien 3 came out in the early 90s, a lot of people were just happy there was a fourth major player in television ( Fox adding to CBS, NBC and ABC) Life moved a little bit slower than today. There was less competition in general for tent pole projects.
I suspect part of Romulus ends up the same way. Depending on what Alvarez and Spaeny do in the next five years, that might cause more people to look back on the film favorably again. Happened for Emily Blunt. After The Devil Wears Prada, her entire filmography got a second wind behind it, people were curious on what else she had been in and if it was any good. How many people watched The King after the Dune films came out? ( Chalamet is pretty mediocre overall, but that pull even works for middling performers) Isabela Merced might get a huge supercharge to her career just from AIPAC alone. David Jonsson as Andy might be the true sleeper here. Whatever people think of Romulus overall, he did some staggering level heavy lifting for this film. If he has a huge breakout in terms of critical acclaim in the future, this film ends up different in terms of perception in a long term rear view mirror.
Sometimes, timing is a better friend to you than skill, luck or nepotism. Charles Dutton put in a great performance in Alien 3. If Alien 3 was made today, I don't know if he survives the cancel culture. I don't know if he gets to have a career at all in modern times. But again, timing, having the most of your career prime in the pre Internet/pre social media era.
"Now THIS is flute playing!"
Fincher's career post Alien 3 versus the Strauss Brothers career post AvP:R:
https://x.com/i/status/1826753839006933223
ironwez20
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I find it hilarious that one of the producers or whatever kinds went behind everyone’s back and darkened the movie cause he thought it would look better
It's probably not uncommon, especially the other way around.I find it hilarious that one of the producers or whatever kinds went behind everyone’s back and darkened the movie cause he thought it would look better
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MeatHookGekko
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I've seen some criticism of the "black goo", but it's a simplified storytelling device. Is it used well by Ridley Scott? Yes and No. I'll explain.
You cannot have a "God" or "Creator" character shown and then easily have them speak. What do they say? How do they say it? What kind of dialogue can you deploy that won't be mocked or turned into a meme? What kind of answers can they give without infuriating some subgroup of the casual viewing audience? It's close to impossible to write (Maybe Aaron Sorkin can do it, maybe if you get a generational level writer like that, but I don't even think he'd attempt it, not even in his coked up salad days) So no one writes it.
If you have major characters that can't or don't speak, then you need something visually to replace exposition. How can you have a human voice doing a voiceover like Deckard in Blade Runner talking about what Gods or Creators are doing and not have the same strange impact that will odds on backfire on you as the director, writers, actors, etc, etc?
The "black goo" is a delivery system that is simplified enough for the casual viewing audience. It's not "white goo" because the jokes and mocking would never end. It's not "red goo" because if you have an Alien using it's tail and claws to rip a human open, then how do you differentiate it with blood. If it's grey and clumpy, then people will think it's hummus. ( I've been told many of you Wonderbreads out there apparently love Trader Joe's box wine and hummus, I don't know if that's true or not. It's a bit of an unsettling thought. )
But jet black viscous liquid immediately and naturally opens up a threat profile with people. Used motor oil? What is it? OK, if it's in your food, you are clearly not going to mistake it for something good for you. You are eating some pasta or cereal and you look away, you look back and there's this black goo in the middle of your plate or bowl. OK, something is wrong.
The narrative and logistical mistake that Scott made with Prometheus, IMHO, is not the black goo. It's that you have very central critical characters who can't speak. If they can't speak, you need more extended run time with them to explain their actions/behavior/motivations without dialogue. Then you need to vastly simplify their actions into their most base levels so the audience can pick it up. And I'm talking aiming at the portions of the audience that are very low IQ ( hate to say it that way, but you can't overcomplicate your plot and critical plot devices to the point where your viewers just surrender)
Simple examples? Tartakovsky's Primal. Spear and Fang. No dialogue but simple effective storytelling. The first 10-15 minutes of Riddick in 2013. Close to no dialogue at all. What's the key there? You can't have a huge cast and pull that off. The biggest weight around the neck of Prometheus are all the humans.
Remove Vickers completely, what do you lose? Nothing. Captain Janek? Nothing. The two pilots? Nothing. The crew that were nameless cannon fodder in the hangar fight? Nothing. The mean ego driven boyfriend in Holloway? Nothing. The two scientists lost in the caves? Nothing. You can distill Prometheus down to Weyland himself, David the android, maybe add in Walter the android as well, then the Creators/Engineers and that's it. That's plenty for a film where you are going to have to carve out and isolate major sections with no dialogue. From the standpoint of an investor, or a potential one, the argument most common at that point is the audience won't stay invested in that kind of film. OK, how invested are they going to be in a disjointed movie where clearly two entirely different concepts were deployed at the same time then mashed together? You'll get moderate revenue simply for being an Alien film after a long long long wait by many fans, but you'll lose them for anything else (Which is part of why Covenant bombed so badly)
I am somewhat hesitant to criticize Ridley Scott too heavily as he generally makes solid fundamental films and has done so for a very long time. But he filmed an outline here, not a real cohesive narrative, where it was clear he needed to write it all himself and then allow it to be truly pressure tested. While it's not public, the treatment of Jon Spaihts on this film was pretty ugly. Plenty of talented writers will kill to work with Ridley Scott, but not on a future Alien film. Not the ones with real options. Not moving forward.
Screenwriting 101 - When you are stuck, truly stuck, on a long term concept, then your escape is to write a novel. One that will never be published (Or pay 10 people to write one for you, but you have to give them a cohesive and well made story bible first) Then allow real editors, with a true free hand, to try to tear it apart. Pressure test it. Then you have them revise it again and again until the concept and storyline actually makes sense. Then you adapt it into a screen play. And that method would have also helped? George Lucas in the prequel trilogy and Zack Snyder with Rebel Moon.
There are, at minimum, four very interesting concepts in Prometheus that could have become solid stand alone films. Pick one. You can't pick them all. The sheer waste of the collected acting firepower in Prometheus is unforgivable. The big pink elephant in the room is Scott should just make the film he really wants to make ( instead of this tiptoe routine with picking up Raised By Wolves and doing Prometheus) He wants to make a film that completely denounces Christianity. So just make it. Eat the fallout that comes with it if it comes to that. The beloved Alien franchise didn't need to be collateral damage to his cowardice.
Something I've said about the current Star Wars slate is that the entire franchise would be in so much better shape if Kathleen Kennedy just made the film she really wants to make - A movie about the trials, struggles and perceived triumph of Kathleen Kennedy. Just get it out of your system and allow legacy fans to stop being held hostage as your proxy to a free therapy session. Stars Wars then could attempt to truly move in a positive forward direction. Scott should just create the film he covets, where he empties his bowels all over Christians. Then we can shed all this passive aggressive undertones in his films and he can just go back to making good solid films with the little time he has left.
Good points here.
I wouldn't say Scott is trying to denounce Christianity specifically. He's still embracing the creation myth, with Weyland himself refusing to believe our existence is the result of biochemical chaos. If Scott has anything to say about a possible God, it's that they might be imperfect and their creations, while remarkable in some ways, will still reflect that imperfection somehow. Which is why...
...this is not a huge deal. The Engineers aren't supreme beings, we only look at them that way because of our insecurities. And they clearly have their own. I actually wish Scott had kept the scene of the Engineer speaking because, while unnecessary, it does give him an air of cruelty and condescension that makes you wonder what was worth idolizing.
Not that different from how Weyland treats David at the start of Covenant. Or his own biological daughter, for that matter.
There's already a growing discomfort among the humans both within the Engineer's chamber and aboard the Prometheus that they probably shouldn't have bothered with this mission. That the answers are not worth it. Imagine traveling such a long distance in search of your creator only to find... something like you. Similar in the worst ways, but different enough that you can't reason with it at all. That's a terrifying notion and it links quite nicely to the conversation about AI. Whether we're talking about who made us or what we've built ourselves, the real dark heart of the story is human imperfection and how it affects both sides of our link in the chain.
On a related note, I came across this very well-made fan featurette summarizing the point of Prometheus and Covenant. Some overlap with the conversation above. Ugh, these had so much potential.
I think there was a more effective way to execute such ideas, but regrettably it didn't happen. Like MeatHookGekko said, Scott merely had an outline and didn't flesh it out or challenge it the way he should have. And it really would've been cleaner had he kept it in a different universe altogether. Ditch the name "Weyland", ditch the xenomorph mural in the temple. Make something separate and more purely philosophical like the original Planet of the Apes.
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jye4ever
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ScoutingForToys
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Easy, Dutch's team.
Mondragon
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! - https://www.collectorfreaks.com/threads/the-alien-franchise-discussion.235801/page-8#post-10827437
Though I'd take both over the Romulus' Rogue-Scooby-Gang, any f-day.
And at least none of Dutch's commados ended up giving birth to a PredaMorph.
Though anyone check on Anna?
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wormlander
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I'm not going to write another essay in reply, but say this. I agree there are elements of Prometheus (and Covenant) that deserves fleshing out, but in order to make the most out of these plot devices (Engineers, Black Goo and the Creation of life itself) we'd really need a TV-show. That said, I still find this two-part Alien feature far more interesting than most sci-fi offerings of the last 20 years. And personally I actually prefer leaving a fair chunk of this mythology unsolved. Not quite being able to see the whole picture contributes massively to the cosmic horror/suspense in this case...
The Clone Wars seemed so much cooler and intriguing before we knew what it was.
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By definition, effective cosmic horror needs a massive element of not the unknown, but in fact The Unknowable. I stand by that.
jaztermareal
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This. Unknowns are frustrating, the unknowable is terrifying
MeatHookGekko
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There really aren't too many ways to carve up Cameron's Aliens. It's a very solid film and incredibly efficient. However, one point of the "WTF Factor" that even Cameron couldn't avoid was basically turning Apone into a bit too casual during the ambush in the reactor area. Cameron needed to severly whittle down the human cast, and it's firepower, to set up the 3rd Act of the film. Also, there are some undertones of common base criticism of the actual Vietnam War, about incompetent leadership ( presented by Gorman) I just don't see Apone actually allowing his troops to have their rifle mags taken from them. Also it's inconceivable that each Marine rifleman would only have one rifle magazine with them. Once the attack started, they would reload and start firing. Once Gorman said that there could be no firing in the reactor area, Apone would have just retreated then. There's no way the Marines would send both squads in there to start. Then again there's no way there would be no one left on board the Sulaco at all.
There needed to be a huge set up to balance the humans with the Aliens, because frankly, the Aliens would just get killed pretty fast against real military firepower. I can't really blame Cameron for his choices though, he needed a simple set up to make the film's Queen vs Ripley showdown work.
If you cross the situations over, I don't think Dutch is leading his team into that reactor room if they can't fire. The ammunition for those MP5s on Hawkins, Poncho, Dillon and Blaine might also cause less splash back with the Alien acid compared to the high powered Pulse Rifle rounds. I don't see Dutch's team retreating. If one of them went down and couldn't move or was trapped, they'd fight to the death right there. Odds be damned.
The Colonial Marines would have likely done better against the Predator. That armor and helmet might not be plasma caster proof, but it's far better than nothing. Also the grenades that Marines had would be a game changer. Imagine Billy with a couple of those grenades while making his last stand. That Predator would been blown to shreds. Also the motion tracker would be incredibly useful.
One of the interesting wrinkles in the casting that changes some of this dynamic is that in order to make Ripley more "mother like" to fit the plot and storyline, her masculine tendencies needed a counter balance. So Cameron casted other women who were a bit over the top in their masculine behavior to try to make Weaver seem more "maternal" in contrast. Vasquez almost rides the line of pure parody. Ferro is humorless and Spunkmeyer is made more submissive to try to make her more masculine. Dietrich is the most interesting case in that the story bible and character bible shown by Cameron in the Special Edition makes it clear that she was designed to have a larger role. But as the Medic, she had to be more empathetic, and that just didn't vibe well to make Weaver less masculine, so essentially she was close to ignored. But again, the casting aesthetic didn't try to hide that the rest of the female cast was curated to be a crew cut brigade. Anna in Predator was set up to be way more feminine. It was a pretty thankless role. Useful for some plot contrivances, some light exposition and marketing balance. So these circumstances make the Colonial Marines much more useful in a fight.
Verdict? Dutch's team is better to have as neighbors. Guys to watch football with and BBQ with on weekends. Drinking and doing basic guy stuff. In a long term stand up fight? The Colonial Marines are just more versatile, have more options, and have air support and ground support ( Could the Predator deal with that APC? Those Marines could have just hid in the APC the entire film)
I'm not really sure if a comparison between Dutch's team and the Colonial Marines would really make sense, since one operates on 1980s Earth while the other is space faring in the far distant future. I figure that the Colonial Marines would probably have things like cybernetic augmentation or other Weyland-Yutani bio-tech to make them more versatile in a hostile environments - especially for colonies in locations that haven't been adequately terra-formed (like the Colony in Romulus).
Although, the above post raises some fantastic points too.
Although, the above post raises some fantastic points too.
