1/6 Dooku AND Grievous before end of 2011?

[The Mike]

I wonder if they'd give him Jedi Lightsaber Trophies as the exclusive, something to put in the cape or have him hold or if they'd actually do something easily relatable to Grevious.

 

[The Mike]

That's why I wish he'd been kept for the entire trilogy, so he could have been developed. He had an amazing intro and Lucas killed him off before you could ever know him.

That's my point, I don't think Lucas ever wanted to develop him even if he were in all three movies. I think Lucas wanted (pardon the pun) a mauler, a character of almost pure violence that was serviant to Sidious and nothing more. I think he would have kept him in the pitbull status throughout. Maul's development as a character has been done by everyone but Lucas.

 

[Wor-Gar]

Star Wars has never really been about character development. Even the key character drama is often rushed, flat and over-acted (Palpatine: Unlimited power) or under-acted (Anakin: what have I done).

 

[The Mike]

I disagree completely. The prequels may not have been about development but the original trilogy is full of it from Luke going from a naive farmboy to a headstrong Jedi in training to a Jedi Knight who wants nothing more than to redeem his father. Then there is Han who goes from self serving smuggler to loyal Alliance member and of course Vader progression from a stooge in ANH to a full villain in ESB to a redeemed hero in ROTJ.

 

[Wor-Gar]

I disagree completely.

I knew someone would.

The prequels may not have been about development but the original trilogy is full of it from Luke going from a naive farmboy to a headstrong Jedi in training to a Jedi Knight who wants nothing more than to redeem his father. Then there is Han who goes from self serving smuggler to loyal Alliance member and of course Vader progression from a stooge in ANH to a full villain in ESB to a redeemed hero in ROTJ.

You think that's drama? Fairly straight forward character arc stuff right there, you can find that in any fairy tale or comic book. The drama is in how it's played out in the story... and I wouldn't call Luke looking out to the twin suns as high drama. It was the music that created the emotion there. Now John Willaims... he created a lot more 'drama' in the Star Wars six-pack than Lucas or the script.

Just sayin'... I still love the movies obviously. I just don't see much drama in them beyond what you come to understand through backstories and multiple viewing.

 

[Jaycepticon]

obi wan's development was pretty good in the PT

 

[thenammagazine]

You think that's drama? Fairly straight forward character arc stuff right there, you can find that in any fairy tale or comic book. The drama is in how it's played out in the story... and I wouldn't call Luke looking out to the twin suns as high drama. It was the music that created the emotion there. Now John Willaims... he created a lot more 'drama' in the Star Wars six-pack than Lucas or the script.

Just sayin'... I still love the movies obviously. I just don't see much drama in them beyond what you come to understand through backstories and multiple viewing.

It's called character development. And you could not get the development without the drama, well, you can, but nobody would give two s**ts or a **** about the characters. I think Maul was used to rekindle interest in the SW genre and generate new interest with such a visually intriguing look. Remember, Boba was created in much the same way for the same reasons in the OT and when looking at his total screen time, the nostalgia for that character is not dissimilar from Maul.

 

[Wor-Gar]

I guess it all depends on what you consider drama.

In reference to Obi-Wan's development in the PT as an example; I find most of his development to be off-screen or buffered by known history and cartoons. Let me explain: TPM -- OB loses mentor and doesn't like Ani -- AOTC -- OB and Ani are now fast friends (never got to see that 'dvevlopment' which might have been interesting) -- ROTJ -- has the most drama for obvious reasons. So, for me, seems like OB's real development happened in the third film where he and Ani go from friends to foes. I see very little development of OB in the first two films. OB gets a lot of credit simply for being the central 'hero' of the PT.

And I don't think character development immediately gives you drama. It creates opportunity for drama, which you can take advantage of or not. Example: Hudson in "Aliens" has a huge character change but the drama that motivates it isn't necessarily dramatically specific to him only. It's situational to all. But he's affected by it. Mostly for comedic relief. And an example the other way around would be Han being put into carbonite; a very dramatic scene but with no internal character change, or development, for Han.

 

[Protozaius]

Grievous is a pretty cool design, but do people even really like that character? He sucked nuts in ROTS.

He didn't suck any more "nuts" than Boba Fett did in ROTJ.

 

[The Mike]

Drama and Character Development are too different things. Your quote said this:

Star Wars has never really been about character development. Even the key character drama is often rushed, flat and over-acted (Palpatine: Unlimited power) or under-acted (Anakin: what have I done).

Then your response asks if I call that drama. I do not. I call that character development as I said in my post. Drama is subjective, what is dramatic to one person is not to another so arguing that is ridiculous from the go. Your original statement said there wasn't any development and Star Wars wasn't about development I gave three examples to the contrary.

 

[thenammagazine]

I guess it all depends on what you consider drama.

In reference to Obi-Wan's development in the PT as an example; I find most of his development to be off-screen or buffered by known history and cartoons. Let me explain: TPM -- OB loses mentor and doesn't like Ani -- AOTC -- OB and Ani are now fast friends (never got to see that 'dvevlopment' which might have been interesting) -- ROTJ -- has the most drama for obvious reasons. So, for me, seems like OB's real development happened in the third film where he and Ani go from friends to foes. I see very little development of OB in the first two films. OB gets a lot of credit simply for being the central 'hero' of the PT.

And I don't think character development immediately gives you drama. It creates opportunity for drama, which you can take advantage of or not. Example: Hudson in "Aliens" has a huge character change but the drama that motivates it isn't necessarily dramatically specific to him only. It's situational to all. But he's affected by it. Mostly for comedic relief. And an example the other way around would be Han being put into carbonite; a very dramatic scene but with no internal character change, or development, for Han.

I don't agree. There was a LOT of drama and character development in that scene. Maybe not after he was frozen, but during the whole scene in the chamber, there was exponential growth with Han's character showing vulnerability, selflessness, etc., traits he wouldn't have admitted to or for that matter, openly displayed up until that point.

 

[Wor-Gar]

Drama and Character Development are too different things. Your quote said this:



Then your response asks if I call that drama. I do not. I call that character development as I said in my post. Drama is subjective, what is dramatic to one person is not to another so arguing that is ridiculous from the go. Your original statement said there wasn't any development and Star Wars wasn't about development I gave three examples to the contrary.

Again, I'm playing devil's advocate here about films I deeply love, but here I go again...

Perhaps my post wasn't clear. I meant that the films don't really demonstrate the drama of the character development very well. Some scenes, moments, yes, but in general... that's what I meant about rushed, etc.

I do very much agree that drama is subjective. Just ask most people's girlfriend or parents if they find Star Wars dramatic.

I don't agree. There was a LOT of drama and character development in that scene. Maybe not after he was frozen, but during the whole scene in the chamber, there was exponential growth with Han's character showing vulnerability, selflessness, etc., traits he wouldn't have admitted to or for that matter, openly displayed up until that point.

Again, here's where we disagree. I found Han to be the same right up to and including his reluctance to say "I love you". He was always vunerable and selfish (ex: just as he was when Luke was asking him to join up at Yavin; selfish yet vunerable -- "what are you lookin' at? I know what I'm doing" sums it up).

 

[EVILFACE]

Dooku was a pretty crappy character too. Even the actor that played him thought so.

That's pretty true, too. But I think Dooku was more under-used than anything else. He had the potential to have been a classic SW character.

But this is what happens when you make crap up as you go along like Lucas did. We have some cool new characters in the prequels, but most never really transcend above their contrived nature.

STFU Newb, Dooku was awesome! At least he could take Kenobi out, twice!! Far better than overrated Maul. He didnt even get trusted saying lines

 

[thenammagazine]

Again, I'm playing devil's advocate here about films I deeply love, but here I go again...

Perhaps my post wasn't clear. I meant that the films don't really demonstrate the drama of the character development very well. Some scenes, moments, yes, but in general... that's what I meant about rushed, etc.

I do very much agree that drama is subjective. Just ask most people's girlfriend or parents if they find Star Wars dramatic.



Again, here's where we disagree. I found Han to be the same right up to and including his reluctance to say "I love you". He was always vunerable and selfish (ex: just as he was when Luke was asking him to join up at Yavin; selfish yet vunerable -- "what are you lookin' at? I know what I'm doing" sums it up).

Not only did he finally say "I love you" during that scene, but he also seemed content with his own sacrifice (nobody else, least of all Han, was sure he'd survive the process), telling Chewie to take care of Leia.

 

[Wor-Gar]

Not only did he finally say "I love you" during that scene, but he also seemed content with his own sacrifice (nobody else, least of all Han, was sure he'd survive the process), telling Chewie to take care of Leia.

But he didn't say that. He couldn't bring himself to it. Not even then. That was the whole point, and why it got the biggest laugh in a SW movie. And he's way too vain to break down and beg not to be put into the chamber so he had little choice but to buck up and go with it. So why do you think he changed so much in that scene? I'm not being combative, I just don't see it.

 

[thenammagazine]

But he didn't say that. He couldn't bring himself to it. Not even then. That was the whole point, and why it got the biggest laugh in a SW movie. And he's way too vain to break down and beg not to be put into the chamber so he had little choice but to buck up and go with it. So why do you think he changed so much in that scene? I'm not being combative, I just don't see it.

NVM, you're right. I'm mixing it up with the Endor bunker where the situation was reversed. But it doesn't change the fact that even though it wasn't said, it was still all there. The reason I think he changed so much, is that's really the first time we see Han be entirely selfless. He could've asked Chewie to try and battle that out. He could've tried to barter with Vader for Luke or the locations of the rebels. Instead, quite the opposite. He sacrifices himself, by his own choice, for the "cause."

 

[Wor-Gar]

NVM, you're right. I'm mixing it up with the Endor bunker where the situation was reversed. But it doesn't change the fact that even though it wasn't said, it was still all there. The reason I think he changed so much, is that's really the first time we see Han be entirely selfless. He could've asked Chewie to try and battle that out. He could've tried to barter with Vader for Luke or the locations of the rebels. Instead, quite the opposite. He sacrifices himself, by his own choice, for the "cause."

I guess... but it wasn't his own choice. Here's where we get a good example of the difference: If Han had volunteered to be frozen to save someone else then THAT would be true character development. As it is, that choice was made for him by Vader so Han had nothing to do with it and had no opportunity to really change dramatically.

Not that I think about it, it would have been nice for Vader to want to freeze Leia instead and, at the last moment, have Han step forward and convince Vader to use him instead. Now that would be drama WITH character development.

 

[thenammagazine]

I guess... but it wasn't his own choice. Here's where we get a good example of the difference: If Han had volunteered to be frozen to save someone else then THAT would be true character development. As it is, that choice was made for him by Vader so Han had nothing to do with it and had no opportunity to really change dramatically.

Not that I think about it, it would have been nice for Vader to want to freeze Leia instead and, at the last moment, have Han step forward and convince Vader to use him instead. Now that would be drama WITH character development.

It's not that the situation was forced upon him, it's the fact that he accepted it selflessly, without trying to weasel his way out of it. And as he's dropped into the chamber, you see that he's content with the sacrifice knowing it's saving the lives of his friends. That's huge growth for a character who was packing up to bail on the Rebel Alliance during the Hoth scene.

 

[Wor-Gar]

It's not that the situation was forced upon him, it's the fact that he accepted it selflessly, without trying to weasel his way out of it. And as he's dropped into the chamber, you see that he's content with the sacrifice knowing it's saving the lives of his friends. That's huge growth for a character who was packing up to bail on the Rebel Alliance during the Hoth scene.

Now that I see.

I still like the new way even better now.

 

[Crimsonbob]

Ooh i'd love a Grievous :chew