Any Vegetarians on This Board?

[Blackthornone]

Blackthorn advances a moral agenda that has a history of mass murder and subjugation. If you don't think it's important that someone confront him, I don't know what to say (other than what I've already said a thousand times).

Could you refresh my memory as to what "moral agenda that has a history of mass murder and subjugation' I am trying to advance??

 

[The Ween]

Someone who only changes their diet is a total vegetarian. A vegan does not use silk, wool, down, leather, beeswax, or any other animal products.
That's how the Vegan society, and the American Vegan Society defines veganism.
Being a real vegan is more challenging than being a total vegetarian.

You don't have to school me. I knew that already. I just don't think it's possible to be a true vegan in this day and age.

 

[Blackthornone]

You would have a hard time convincing those agents of war that war was not already being waged upon them, and that they were not acting in self-defense.

As for necessity in determining what should and should not be eaten, when you can get it all in a single pill, will the killing of plants be considered immoral as well?

Those people would be defending their lifestyles, not their actual lives.
If someone points a gun or knife or other weapon at them and puts them in imminent danger of losing their lives, then their actual lives are in danger.

Only plants can convert minerals ie dirt into digestible material for the animal kingdom.
I have to believe that the inefficiency, and energy consumption involved in trying to accomplish that would negate the benefits. Also, the nutrients wouldn't be natural. Studies have shown that natural vitamins are more beneficial than synthetic ones.

Furthermore, when animals are eaten, because animals must eat plants and produce a lot of waste, more plants are consumed by eating animals than by eating the plants directly. It's one of the reasons why meat production wastes so much water. The other main reason is giving water to the animals to drink. (The animals are an artificially manufactured population that would never be as large were it not for humans breeding them entirely for eating them, which is why the water is wasted.)

 

[Blackthornone]

You don't have to school me. I knew that already. I just don't think it's possible to be a true vegan in this day and age.

It's difficult, it's true. However, since I brought up vegetarianism, and haven't even really been arguing for veganism this whole year here, trying to convince people to go total vegan is beyond the scope of what I am trying to do.

That said, it is only because animals are raised to be eaten that animal products are so prevalent and in so many things people use.

 

[Blackthornone]

You would have a hard time convincing those agents of war that war was not already being waged upon them, and that they were not acting in self-defense.

As for necessity in determining what should and should not be eaten, when you can get it all in a single pill, will the killing of plants be considered immoral as well?

Also, the cows, pigs and chickens have never tried to rise up and declare war on humans to threaten our lifestyle. They pretty much just sit there and take it. I'm amazed how much abuse cows endure without fighting back.

However, sometimes mountain lions encroach upon human cities (mostly because of lack of food, because human beings have destroyed too much of the wildlife areas) and then the animals are killed.

 

[Wulf]

That must be really hard to do if you're really serious about being strict.

I just don't think it's possible to be a true vegan in this day and age.

A vegan is someone who seeks to exclude, as far as possible and practicable, all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing and any other purpose. So yes, you can be a true vegan. It's not about being 100% free from animal products otherwise you can't join the club, it's striving to do as best as you can.

btw......don't you drink blood?

 

[crows]

A vegan is someone who seeks to exclude, as far as possible and practicable, all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing and any other purpose. So yes, you can be a true vegan. It's not about being 100% free from animal products otherwise you can't join the club, it's striving to do as best as you can.

how hard is it to find stuff that doesn't have any animal in them? do you ever have a hard time finding something?

 

[Wulf]

how hard is it to find stuff that doesn't have any animal in them? do you ever have a hard time finding something?

It's super easy. After 3 years or so being a vegan you learn what's vegan and not, the first weeks were hard but in time you learn. There's so much information available with the internet that it can't possibly be hard anymore. There are tons of vegan food in most supermarkets (like dairy-free butter, milk alternatives and meat-substitutes) and we also have two 100% vegan stores in Stockholm offering food and hygiene articles. There are a couple of vegan and vegetarian (vegan friendly) restaurants available and many non-vegan restaurants that are starting to offer alternatives as the number of vegans are increasing in our country. I ate a vegan burrito at Taco Bar (Tex-Mex restaurant) today at the mall. They offer alternatives on all of their dishes.

And if anyone is interested in finding and trying out some vegan or vegetarian food at a restaurant that specializes in it (because those are the best). Check out this page: https://www.happycow.net/

Just search for your city and you'll find all vegan/vegetarian restaurants and also some of those non-vegan restaurants offering alternatives. This was very helpful for me with my two latest trips to London and Paris. My girlfriend and I were surprised by how many vegan restaurants there were compared to in Sweden. Anyone living in London, I envy you! Not only because you pay less for your collectibles (lol) but The Loving Hut restaurants in London had some of the best vegan food I ever tried.

 

[devilof76]

Could you refresh my memory as to what "moral agenda that has a history of mass murder and subjugation' I am trying to advance??

Radical altruism.

 

[Blackthornone]

Radical altruism.

Perhaps you mean a sustainable economy that does not involve the necessity of living on credit from other countries to keep it going?
You mean an economy in which those who own the corporations who are the only ones who benefit from their workers are the ones who pay them instead of the government paying them with money borrowed from China paid as welfare?

If the government can't protect the people from being exploited by big business and economic czars, what good it the government? What are they good for? To stand by and support the profits of big business by borrowing from China until the country goes into so much debt it has to shut down like it did?

I have no problem with people getting rich, or capitalism, but it has to be a sustainable system that doesn't need to run on credit to keep it going. If you can think of another way to keep profits for those CEOs as high as they are without borrowing from other countries, then please elucidate.

 

[Lejuan]

Every so often zealotry contains kernels of apparently reasonable thinking, which is what makes zealotry so dangerous. But zealots are impervious to reason and rational thought. Straw men and non-sequiturs are their logical tools of trade. They are the biggest threat to humankind and social cohesion on the planet.

 

[Blackthornone]

Every so often zealotry contains kernels of apparently reasonable thinking, which is what makes zealotry so dangerous. But zealots are impervious to reason and rational thought. Straw men and non-sequiturs are their logical tools of trade. They are the biggest threat to humankind and social cohesion on the planet.

The biggest threat to humankind is worldwide drought caused by animal product consumption and global warming due to fossil fuel use and methane from animal product consumption. Before these were such imminent threats, like in the 1700s, perhaps zealotry could have been the greatest threat.
All you have to do is ignore the relevance of drought and what causes it and then its easy to believe that zealotry is the problem. As long as you are only living for today or next week, maybe zealotry is the biggest problem for you because you find zealots annoying because they are the ones giving the message you don't like, because it forces you to have to change.
Meanwhile the real threat is something else, ie conventionalism, which is what most people do, which logically has the biggest impact.

What most people do will always have the biggest impact on the world, not the actions of the few, because most people combined have far more impact than any individual or a small group, regardless of how adamant that group is.

If the actions of the masses are destructive at all, they will cause far worse problems than any few individuals cause, if those individuals cause any problems at all, even if those problems are far worse in the individual sense.
It's how it all stacks up that has the biggest impact, not the problem that seems the most different than everything else.

People who are conventionalists don't think like that, though. They perceive everything they do as normal and ok regardless of what it is, or how bad it might be. Slavery is one thing. Chinese foot binding, cannibalism in certain communities.

If most people do it, it's assumed to be ok, because it is deemed acceptable because they have accepted it.

They accept it because they have been taught to by those who are ignorant or who want to exert control over other people for power, because they benefit from it, especially economically.

The school system reinforces these standards.. They are the brainwashing centers for whatever powers that be.

 

[SnakeDoctor]

Perhaps you mean a sustainable economy that does not involve the necessity of living on credit from other countries to keep it going?
You mean an economy in which those who own the corporations who are the only ones who benefit from their workers are the ones who pay them instead of the government paying them with money borrowed from China paid as welfare?

If the government can't protect the people from being exploited by big business and economic czars, what good it the government? What are they good for? To stand by and support the profits of big business by borrowing from China until the country goes into so much debt it has to shut down like it did?

I have no problem with people getting rich, or capitalism, but it has to be a sustainable system that doesn't need to run on credit to keep it going. If you can think of another way to keep profits for those CEOs as high as they are without borrowing from other countries, then please elucidate.

Spend less. Do less. Don't borrow. That's plenty sustainable. The government doesn't borrow to pay CEO salaries. They borrow to put their hands in everything.

None of which has anything to do with being vegan.

SnakeDoc

 

[Lejuan]

Shades of grey > black and white

 

[Blackthornone]

Spend less. Do less. Don't borrow. That's plenty sustainable. The government doesn't borrow to pay CEO salaries. They borrow to put their hands in everything.

None of which has anything to do with being vegan.

SnakeDoc

These corporations don't pay a living wage, and so the employees must get additional money so they can live from the government, because all of their time is spent working for the corporations.
That means the government is paying the corporations employees so that the CEOs can keep more money for themselves. If the employees don't make enough money to live on, then they can't live, and then they can't work, and then those corporations can't make any money anymore. The corporations are benefiting without paying THEIR share of the financial burden, all so they can obscenely rich. They make 250-500 times what their employees make.
When they made 20 times as much, 50 years ago, their employees made a living wage and the government didn't go into debt because they didn't have to pay welfare to those employees.
The corporations are exploiting the system for their own benefit, and everybody else pays for it.

My statement was a response to Devil.
However, it DOES relate to vegetarianism, because, once again, the Government subsidizes the animal product industry, thereby keeping the industry's profits as high as possible, all for the benefit of big business.
Same dynamic.
Because this cheap animal products increase demand, it causes drought, which everybody pays for. Again, we have an industry exploiting the system for their own gain while everyone else pays for it.
The rich like those who own the industries will have no problem getting enough water, but meanwhile, the poor will suffer, because a vital, previously affordable resource has been made unaffordable all so that the meat industry can have more profits.

Same dynamic. It's rigging the system so that the few powerful people can exploit the economy for resources while everyone else suffers because of it.
In both cases we see the few powerful exploiting resources to the point of either financial or environmental unsustainablity, and once it's all spent out, they don't care, because their coffers overflow.

Being vegan has a lot to do with a sustainable economy. It has to do with a sustainable ecology.

 

[Blackthornone]

Shades of grey > black and white

Knowing specifics about an issue> assuming things based upon believing there is nothing wrong with the status quo you have been brainwashed into believing, and brainwash others into believing, perpetuating the cycle.

There are some things that shake up beliefs so much it makes people too uncomfortable to research the truth. These people figure if there was anything wrong, the government or the experts will fix any real problems or prevent any real problems. Meanwhile, the fox has been guarding the hen-house all these decades.
Those in power are the ones responsible for allowing it to happen in the first place. The government and the school system, the educators, the mainstream media, scientists, all of them have done nothing. You can't expect such a person to fix anything. Prevention of problems is always easiest.
They could have prevented it and they didn't. They told you there was no problem to get you to go along with it and you believe them. Where are you now?
A no win situation. Of course, since you still believe them, because it is too uncomfortable not to, you still can't see the reality of the problem.

 

[hoodonit00]

These corporations don't pay a living wage, and so the employees must get additional money so they can live from the government, because all of their time is spent working for the corporations.
That means the government is paying the corporations employees so that the CEOs can keep more money for themselves. If the employees don't make enough money to live on, then they can't live, and then they can't work, and then those corporations can't make any money anymore. The corporations are benefiting without paying THEIR share of the financial burden, all so they can obscenely rich. They make 250-500 times what their employees make.
When they made 20 times as much, 50 years ago, their employees made a living wage and the government didn't go into debt because they didn't have to pay welfare to those employees.
The corporations are exploiting the system for their own benefit, and everybody else pays for it.

My statement was a response to Devil.
However, it DOES relate to vegetarianism, because, once again, the Government subsidizes the animal product industry, thereby keeping the industry's profits as high as possible, all for the benefit of big business.
Same dynamic.
Because this cheap animal products increase demand, it causes drought, which everybody pays for. Again, we have an industry exploiting the system for their own gain while everyone else pays for it.
The rich like those who own the industries will have no problem getting enough water, but meanwhile, the poor will suffer, because a vital, previously affordable resource has been made unaffordable all so that the meat industry can have more profits.

Same dynamic. It's rigging the system so that the few powerful people can exploit the economy for resources while everyone else suffers because of it.
In both cases we see the few powerful exploiting resources to the point of either financial or environmental unsustainablity, and once it's all spent out, they don't care, because their coffers overflow.

Being vegan has a lot to do with a sustainable economy. It has to do with a sustainable ecology.

So in short you believe that McDonalds workers should be making 15 dollars an hour. Got it. So how cold did it get sleeping outside when you were taking part in occupy Wall Street?

 

[crows]

is raising minimum wage really that bad?

 

[EVILFACE]

It raises the price of everything else.

 

[hoodonit00]

It raises the price of everything else.

This. Fast food work or other unskilled labor was never supposed to be looked upon as a liveable wage. It's what you did while you were going to school or deciding what you wanted to do. When that decision was made then you started out on the ground floor and worked your way up. I don't get jealous because the owner of the company I work for makes a lot more money than I do. He is the one that had the balls to start a company, invest his money in it, and got the education he needed to succeed in it. He pays me well for doing my job. I am a skilled tradesman though and it offends me that some people think someone in an unskilled job should be anywhere close to what I make. Again, I didn't start out making decent money though. Took many years in a machine shop doing menial jobs with menial pay to get to where I am today.