Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice (March 24th, 2016)

[Khev]

Clown, I like you and all but man did khev just pwn you.

And I like Clown too.

He's just got a lot to learn.

 

[karamazov80]

I dont know how WB/DC films work behind the scenes but I am 100% sure their are execs involved. They are not going to give you $200 million dollars and say "Hey kid, go make something". Not gonna happen.

And the statement "But he also places a ceiling on how great a film can be" is ridiculous.

To your first point, IrishJedi, who has been closely involved with the WB films, was reinforcing that point. Not that the WB execs could be trusted to take the Feige role anyway, but. . .sure, there is studio interference. That's apparently why Wonder Woman was forced into the film. But by and large, there appears to be a high level of creative control by the directors there.

To your second point, that's just a logical extension of putting limits on creative freedom, and is backed up with countless historical examples in terms of art, music, and film. You frequently have a conflict between art and commercialism. And truly great artistic creations can only come out of purer artistic expression. On the other hand, some art doesn't resonate or work with onlookers. Forcing something to fit some preconception of commercial success is going to limit its artistic value. And the Marvel Studios filmography so far supports this way of thinking IMO. Versus, say, the Nolan Bat-films (or at least the first two in my mind), which were far superior from an artistic quality perspective.

"Up to their standards"? Well 1941, Spiderman 3, and TPM weren't up to those director's standards because those films were bad films....not just by comparison to their previous work. Those films were just bad. Calling TDKR a mis-step when that film was better received than Batman Begins, makes no logical sense. That's all I'm saying.

Again, we're not disagreeing on your first point. There are different ways to assess quality though. Hudsucker Proxy is better than 90% of other films, but not good compared to the other Coen Bros. films. As for TDKR being better received than earlier films, it wasn't by me, or many other geek fans. So of course it makes sense to say that. I'm not hanging my hat on the Rotten Tomatoes score here or for anything else. As Khev points out, those are quite dubious in some instances. Due A) to subjectivity in taste; and B) to the way scores are calculated, which disregards degree of like or dislike. Though on the aggregate, they are helpful in allowing viewers to determine if critics think a movie is bad, good, or somewhere in-between.

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

See this is where the millennial thing rears its ugly head. Always needing to extract bits and pieces of a post in order to formulate a dramatic response.

Yes...because you've never done that..right?

Did I say "Here's a list of the worst movies ever made: Spider-Man 3, 1941, and TDKR. All 1/10 films."

I didn't say you did.

Do those films share the dubious distinction of being letdowns from directors who could previously do no wrong? Well yeah, for many they pretty much do.

Yet it was better received than Batman Begins..

And 87% RT score? Really? We're going there? Good. Now bow down to TFA since it's apparently better than 2/3 of your precious Nolan trilogy and right up there with TDK...

Personal opinions aside, I can admit that TFA was better received by critics and fans than the Nolan Batman films. It's a fact. Do I have to agree with it on apersonal level? No...but you won't see me comparing it to SM3 to make a point either. Then again, I have no trouble saying that those films are overrated, especially Batman Begins and TDK...just like I have no trouble saying Hopeman in BVS is pure garbage and Capt America in the MCU is a better character.

 

[jye4ever]

The Nolan trilogy has the biggest narrative deflate in cinema history.

 

[Starscream Soundwave]

Virtually anything creative has a brief to meet. That doesn't automatically give it a glass ceiling.

 

[Matt S]

The Nolan trilogy has the biggest narrative deflate in cinema history.

So true. I can't get over how much I love the first two and how much I loathe the final one. haven't been able to watch Hardy in a single movie since without feeling a sick feeling in my stomach. he was so wrong as Bane.

 

[karamazov80]

Virtually anything creative has a brief to meet. That doesn't automatically give it a glass ceiling.

You might be using British terminology I'm not familiar with, but I think I get your point. Let's try to think about the evidence. How many projects driven largely by commercial concerns have been "great" vs. how many driven by artistic concerns have been "great?" Of course, understanding that this is a continuum, and most projects we are familiar with have components of both. I can rattle off numerous instances in the latter category. Not so much in the former. Can you or anyone else do that? I suspect Khev would put Force Awakens into that category, but he and I disagree on that one.

 

[jye4ever]

BB/TDK are absolutely not over rated, those 2 films together are quite the powerhouses in the same way that Alien/Aliens, T1/T2, SW/ESB and Godfather 1/2 are.

Sorry Die Hard, Indy, Robocop, Jaws, Exorcist, F13th, Halloween, Predator and Conan, you can't join that elite club.

I should probably add Rocky and Rambo up there alongside the other greats.

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

The Nolan trilogy has the biggest narrative deflate in cinema history.

Take the Joker scenes out of TDK, and it's one of the most boring films ever made with an actor and actress that have zero chemistry and an ending that's about 10 minutes too long. Batman Begins' origin is nothing more than rip off of Dr. Strange origin with poorly shot fight scenes, a generic third act with a villain whose plan makes no sense either....but hey, that's the untouchable Nolan golden hand at its best...I guess.

 

[jye4ever]

I would say take something out of TDKR but there's nothing good to remove.

As a standalone Batman movie it is weak but as a follow up to what was built up in TDK it is a complete narrative derailment of Amtrak proportions.

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

I would say take something out of TDKR but there's nothing good to remove. .

 

[spindrift]

I've criticized others here for being so hard on Iron Man 3, but I think the same criticism could apply to myself (and maybe some others?) with this film. Were there some pretty objectively bad scenes and plot points? I think so. Talia's death was hilarious, for example, but many of Difabio's critiques held for me.

But overall it was a well made movie IMO. But as a Batman movie? Not so great. Felt weird and wrong in many places. Just like Iron Man 3 was a really good movie, just not a good Iron Man movie in terms of the expectations geek fans put on it.

I thought TDKR was excellent but could see how many fans would not like it. It's Nolan zooming off in a completely differtent take than what most were expecting.
IM3 I really liked as an IM film- so much better than that disaster IM2...but very different from IM

 

[jye4ever]

Should've went with Keaton's, his is epic.

 

[karamazov80]

I would say take something out of TDKR but there's nothing good to remove.

I don't know. Wayne's magical healing back was pretty cool.

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

Should've went with Keaton's, his is epic.

Bale is jerking off? I thought he was shaking his fist in anger

 

[karamazov80]

Bale is jerking off? I thought he was shaking his fist in anger

Are those mutually exclusive behaviors?

 

[jye4ever]

Here is my advise, you fellas and gals just ignore what little ole me has to say anyways because you know what....I enjoyed BvS and i'm super excited for the extended cut.

Now, give me some Civil War!

 

[Starscream Soundwave]

You might be using British terminology I'm not familiar with, but I think I get your point. Let's try to think about the evidence. How many projects driven largely by commercial concerns have been "great" vs. how many driven by artistic concerns have been "great?" Of course, understanding that this is a continuum, and most projects we are familiar with have components of both. I can rattle off numerous instances in the latter category. Not so much in the former. Can you or anyone else do that? I suspect Khev would put Force Awakens into that category, but he and I disagree on that one.

Criteria to meet, I probably should've said.

Next to no films begin with a blank canvas. Superhero films are all generally pretty constrained, but I don't think there is a limit to how good they can be.

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

I've criticized others here for being so hard on Iron Man 3, but I think the same criticism could apply to myself (and maybe some others?) with this film. Were there some pretty objectively bad scenes and plot points? I think so. Talia's death was hilarious, for example, but many of Difabio's critiques held for me.

But overall it was a well made movie IMO. But as a Batman movie? Not so great. Felt weird and wrong in many places. Just like Iron Man 3 was a really good movie, just not a good Iron Man movie in terms of the expectations geek fans put on it.

I understand that TDKR had some flaws, but so did BB and TDK. I just don't get all the BB and TDK worshiping when those films also have bad scenes, boring scenes, and dialogue where people don't even talk or act like real human beings. Those films are pretentious as ****. I'm glad people are starting to turn against those Nolan films because they think Battfleck is "the real" Batman.

 

[karamazov80]

I understand that TDKR had some flaws, but so did BB and TDK. I just don't get all the BB and TDK worshiping when those films also have bad scenes, boring scenes, and dialogue where people don't even talk or act like real human beings. Those films are pretentious as ****.

I've probably seen zero comic book films where people talk and act like authentic humans. But then, that's not really what I look for in a comic book movie.

That isn't to say that I think character should act like aloof psychopaths a la Snyder Superman.