Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice (March 24th, 2016)

[Victοr]

I love Morisson as much as the next guy, but his Luthor wasn't to my liking. I mean, sure, Post-Crisis/Post-Flashpoint Luthor is an *******, but he had noble, albeit twisted goals. Morisson's was ultimately just an arrogant and selfish ****.

 

[GasparZizou]

I love Morisson as much as the next guy, but his Luthor wasn't to my liking. I mean, sure, Post-Crisis/Post-Flashpoint Luthor is an *******, but he had noble, albeit twisted goals. Morisson's was ultimately just an arrogant and selfish ****.

Well yeah, it's a love letter to SA Supes.

 

[SuperJ300]

 

[Victοr]

Well yeah, it's a love letter to SA Supes.

Fair enough, but for me at least, the "go-to" Luthor version is the one where yes, he's selfish prick with an superiority complex, but he does have somewhat noble goals.

 

[greygoose]

Are you pugging with me? Don't pug with me, man!!

Pug yeah!

 

[ZaCHw117]

Are you pugging with me? Don't pug with me, man!!

 

[GasparZizou]

Fair enough, but for me at least, the "go-to" Luthor version is the one where yes, he's selfish prick with an superiority complex, but he does have somewhat noble goals.

But Superman puts these noble goals spiel of Luthor to rest in AS, if he was really noble, he would do noble deeds without whining he's being hindered by Supes all the time.

Luthor is not noble, he's not driven by noble, he's just an egomaniac. Businessman or mad scientist, AS Luthor is the perfect condensation of the character.

Whenever Luthor actually DOES something good, it's when he lets go of this hate for Superman, but this only happens every now and then in Elseworlds, or if you want to believe the theories that Leo Quintum if Lex from the future.

 

[Victοr]

But Superman puts these noble goals spiel of Luthor to rest in AS, if he was really noble, he would do noble deeds without whining he's being hindered by Supes all the time.

Luthor is not noble, he's not driven by noble, he's just an egomaniac. Businessman or mad scientist, AS Luthor is the perfect condensation of the character.

I get that, hence why I'm not a big fan of that version. It doesn't leave room for speculation, it puts an end to everything and gives a definitive answer, which is that Luthor is an *******.

Whenever Luthor actually DOES something good, it's when he lets go of this hate for Superman, but this only happens every now and then in Elseworlds, or if you want to believe the theories that Leo Quintum if Lex from the future.

And that's the version of Lex I personally like. He's a guy who, if he could just let go, he could do great things. But, he's so arrogant, selfish and awful, that he'd rather try and kill Superman rather than save the world. And that I find interesting.

I'm not saying Luthor is a good person, I'm just saying that I prefer mine with a few shades of grey. He's much worse than Doom, to be honest.

 

[GasparZizou]

I get that, hence why I'm not a big fan of that version. It doesn't leave room for speculation, it puts an end to everything and gives a definitive answer, which is that Luthor is an *******.

But that's obvious if you've ever read anything Superman, it was never a question or up in the air for speculation.

Even right now Luthor is not a hero because of conviction, he just saw a chance to overshadow Supes when he died.

And that's the version of Lex I personally like. He's a guy who, if he could just let go, he could do great things. But, he's so arrogant, selfish and awful, that he'd rather try and kill Superman rather than save the world. And that I find interesting.

I'm not saying Luthor is a good person, I'm just saying that I prefer mine with a few shades of grey. He's much worse than Doom, to be honest.

But that's what you get in AS Superman.

 

[Victοr]

But that's obvious if you've ever read anything Superman, it was never a question or up in the air for speculation.

Even right now Luthor is not a hero because of conviction, he just saw a chance to overshadow Supes when he died.

Dunno, I think he legitimately wants to change. I'm not convinced it's a classic case of upstaging Supes.

But that's what you get in AS Superman.

There's a small difference. In AS, he could do great things, if he wanted. What I'm talking about is a Luthor who wants to do good things, but he can't due to his obsession.

I get what you're saying, and more often than not, Luthor is portrayed as AS Luthor. I'm not saying he's not true to the canon books, or that he's OOC, I just prefer a more "heroic" Luthor.

 

[GasparZizou]

Dunno, I think he legitimately wants to change. I'm not convinced it's a classic case of upstaging Supes.

He doesn't.

There's a small difference. In AS, he could do great things, if he wanted. What I'm talking about is a Luthor who wants to do good things, but he can't due to his obsession.

I get what you're saying, and more often than not, Luthor is portrayed as AS Luthor. I'm not saying he's not true to the canon books, or that he's OOC, I just prefer a more "heroic" Luthor.

I think you're idealizing Luthor because you like "heroic villains", Luthor is not Doom. Like I said, even now or in Forever Evil Luthor wasn't doing it out of principle, and those were 2 chances he had where Superman wasn't around and isn't AS Luthor.

There's no real difference between AS Luthor or any other Luthor, AS Luthor is just concentrate of the character.

 

[karamazov80]

So it's sort of like Joker, right? He would love to do good, except that he's such a raving psycho who hates all things good and just, that he can't.

 

[Victοr]

He doesn't.

It might be a Superior Spider-Man case, where he begins with purely egotistical motives and slowly learns what being a hero truly means.

I think you're idealizing Luthor because you like "heroic villains", Luthor is not Doom. Like I said, even now or in Forever Evil Luthor wasn't doing it out of principle, and those were 2 chances he had where Superman wasn't around and isn't AS Luthor.

There's no real difference between AS Luthor or any other Luthor, AS Luthor is just concentrate of the character.

It could be. It's in the nature of comic books though. With so many writers contributing to decades old characters, certain aspects, no matter how minimal, stick with you and therefore you create your ideal version of said fictional creation. Luthor certainly is no Doom or even Sinestro, but I do think there's a bit of "good" inside of him.

Either way, I never debated AS Luthor's accuracy, I just wasn't as a big a fan of Morisson providing an "answer" to the whole "what would Luthor do with Superman's powers" question.

 

[Victοr]

So it's sort of like Joker, right? He would love to do good, except that he's such a raving psycho who hates all things good and just, that he can't.

Well, Joker never talks about doing anything good. Luthor, for all intents and purposes always goes on and on about how he could fix the world. Ultimately he doesn't, because he's too "busy", but I'd like to think that there's something genuine behind that, and it isn't just a facade.

 

[GasparZizou]

It might be a Superior Spider-Man case, where he begins with purely egotistical motives and slowly learns what being a hero truly means.

You know where is Luthor legitimately good? In Earth 2/3 where the Crime Syndicate rules and evil is the right order of things, what does that tell you?

In both canon and non canon.

It could be. It's in the nature of comic books though. With so many writers contributing to decades old characters, certain aspects, no matter how minimal, stick with you and therefore you create your ideal version of said fictional creation. Luthor certainly is no Doom or even Sinestro, but I do think there's a bit of "good" inside of him.

Either way, I never debated AS Luthor's accuracy, I just wasn't as a big a fan of Morisson providing an "answer" to the whole "what would Luthor do with Superman's powers" question.

But he didn't give an answer to that, Luthor has had Superman's powers or similar every now and then and the result is always the same.

You're kind of like stuck in this short period of time, like a Metropolis citizen, when Luthor is doing good deeds trying to win back the trust of the people (with ulterior motives obviously) and people are like "hmmm, maybe he is good after all", and Superman is like "nope, just you wait, citizens of Metropolis", and bam! He goes bad again.

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

My favorite live action Luthors are the Smallville and the Lois and Clark versions.

 

[Victοr]

You know where is Luthor legitimately good? In Earth 2/3 where the Crime Syndicate rules and evil is the right order of things, what does that tell you?

In both canon and non canon.

But he didn't give an answer to that, Luthor has had Superman's powers or similar every now and then and the result is always the same.

You're kind of like stuck in this short period of time, like a Metropolis citizen, when Luthor is doing good deeds trying to win back the trust of the people (with ulterior motives obviously) and people are like "hmmm, maybe he is good after all", and Superman is like "nope, just you wait, citizens of Metropolis", and bam! He goes bad again.

I'm not making a case for Luthor being a saint, or even an anti-hero/anti-villain, I'm just saying, I don't want a purely evil Luthor who cares about nothing other than himself. I like that grey tint in his character. It's rarely seen, and most often it's a rouse, but I think there's a hint of heroism in there. I mean, if the Joker can have it (that time where MM cured him for a few seconds), why can't Luthor.

 

[GasparZizou]

I'm not making a case for Luthor being a saint, or even an anti-hero/anti-villain, I'm just saying, I don't want a purely evil Luthor who cares about nothing other than himself. I like that grey tint in his character. It's rarely seen, and most often it's a rouse, but I think there's a hint of heroism in there. I mean, if the Joker can have it (that time where MM cured him for a few seconds), why can't Luthor.

I think you're idealizing Luthor into something he's not and never has been or hinted at legitimately being, the grey tint is there but not towards good or heroism, but towards his own conflicting agendas, but to each their own.

 

[Victοr]

I think you're idealizing Luthor into something he's not and never has been or hinted at legitimately being, the grey tint is there but not towards good or heroism, but towards his own conflicting agendas, but to each their own.

That may very well be true. For example, I've seen folks call Tony a villain, and while the books don't necessarily support this, depending on your POV, it has legs to stand on. Like I said, with writers changing so often, and characters appearing in multiple medias for decades, after a while you start amalgamating them. I do it sometimes anyway.

 

[kryptonianmutie]

My favorite live action Luthors are the Smallville and the Lois and Clark versions.

Rosenbaum was a refreshing take on the character. I also liked the older version of Luthor on the Superboy tv show.