Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice (March 24th, 2016)

[batfan08]

Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

I think it's unfair to think that the Reeve films are bing dismissed because of Man of Steel. I don't think that is the filmmakers' intent, nor the audiences. This is a situation where Snyder was most likely going to be damned no matter what. We saw what happened when someone couldn't let go of Reeve's films; we got Superman Returns. I love Man of Steel, but I don't think it was a perfect film. With that in mind, unless Snyder was able to nail the formula on his first try, there were bound to be pissed off fanboys. You either get too close to the Reeve material or you stray too far. Although, even if he did make a Superman movie that was almost universally praised, there's always going to be somebody who's pissed off.

 

[chewblacca]

Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

I can admit that the Reeve films are not perfect, nor was Returns. The one thing I expected from MOS after the dark knight trilogy was a more optimistic take on DC characters, but after seeing it I was more bummed than before. For me, Superman has always been an uplifting character, but MOS made him exactly the opposite.

 

[Darth Zangetsu]

Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

I can admit that the Reeve films are not perfect, nor was Returns. The one thing I expected from MOS after the dark knight trilogy was a more optimistic take on DC characters, but after seeing it I was more bummed than before. For me, Superman has always been an uplifting character, but MOS made him exactly the opposite.

I get that, but young Superman(remember MOS is basically a year one story) is not that guy yet. He wasn't in the comics, and he wasn't in this. It takes some time for people to see him as the beacon of Hope he will be. In MOS, he's still coming to terms with all of this. But he is clearly trying to believe the best in humanity, much like the Reeve version. If he's still this way in his 3rd film *cough Tony Stark cough* then I will understand the complaints, and be joining them.

 

[chewblacca]

Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

I get that he's still learning his powers and getting the human race to trust him, but with Luthor and Batman coming for him in the sequel I think Goyer and Snyder painted themselves into a dark corner. I remain optimistic though, and hope for the best.

 

[Darth Zangetsu]

Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

I get that he's still learning his powers and getting the human race to trust him, but with Luthor and Batman coming for him in the sequel I think Goyer and Snyder painted themselves into a dark corner. I remain optimistic though, and hope for the best.

I am hoping that the whole Batman and Superman as enemies thing is overblown. Yes, give them an initial fight kind of like in Justice League War. But move on to the 2 of them working together to take down Luthor and whoever else shows up. I don't want them to be at each other's throats all movie. I really do not want the Frank Miller version of their friendship. I have said as much on here before, they need to follow either the Jeph Loeb or Bruce Timm version of of these characters interact with each other. Snyder has said that he doesn't plan on using The Dark Knight Returns as a template, it was just that that line is probably the most well known line between the 2 characters. He seems to get that them fighting each other for a whole film is a bad idea, and not what comic fans want.

 

[Dr.Mirakle32]

Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

No one is dismissing the Donner movies, nor I'm doing so to justify my liking of MoS, that excuse has got to go, they're just not my definitive version of the character in the slightest.

Yeah MoS has it's flaws, that's no secret, but even if MoS didn't exist, STM also has it's own flaws, more so and even more glaring than MoS', it's not the masterpiece everybody makes it out to be.

Also, it's funny how people like the exact same dark and mopey tones in TWS but still criticizes them in MoS, it sumarizes the Marvel and DC fanbase overall, you see Marvel trying new stuff with their characters in comicbooks and movies, changing them greatly and the fans are supportive yet you see DC trying new stuff as well, and the fans just complain, ***** and moan, in a very self-entitled and pompous way.

It has to do more with execution than tone. I have no problem with a darker take on Superman in general, but if you're trying to make it realistic and gritty, at least commit to it.

The problem with MOS, is that the tone and structure are all over the map.

We see apocalyptic carnage wreaked on Metropolis and Smallville, but instead of showing the aftermath and consequences, we get corny jokes. Why is Superman more interested in joking with Lois instead of searching the rubble for survivors? How is Lois able to conveniently show up in every location? Why didn't Superman take out the Metropolis world engine before the one in the Indian Ocean, when he knows that one would cause more damage? How the **** is Russell Crowe riding a giant dragonfly realistic or gritty?!!

My brain hurts.

The biggest defense from supporters is that this is Supes' first day on the job and he's bound to make mistakes. Okay... But I've NEVER put on a Superman costume, and even I know if I fly through a 7-11 in the middle of the day, and it explodes, I've probably killed a few people. I just don't need Jor El's hologram to explain to me why that's a bad thing.

To me MOS just a poorly written and constructed movie all around. TWS, on the other hand is true to its tone, and is built around a well crafted screenplay. I left the theater emotionally moved and feeling optimistic; Not cold and empty inside.

 

[GasparZizou]

Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

Seriously, not again, I've refuted those points like 20 times by now

The problem with MOS, is that the tone and structure are all over the map.

We see apocalyptic carnage wreaked on Metropolis and Smallville, but instead of showing the aftermath and consequences, we get corny jokes. Why is Superman more interested in joking with Lois instead of searching the rubble for survivors?

That's the only thing I agree with, the kiss scene should not have happened, the same for the tornado scene.

I liked the codex subplot, but it should have been explained better.

How is Lois able to conveniently show up in every location? Why didn't Superman take out the Metropolis world engine before the one in the Indian Ocean, when he knows that one would cause more damage? How the **** is Russell Crowe riding a giant dragonfly realistic or gritty?!! My brain hurts.

The only "convenient situation" was when Faora brought Lois into the ship which was not explained, in every other moment Lois had reason to be in, it wasn't like in previous iterations of the character where she had no clue who was Superman and still ended in convenient situations, in this case she WAS chasing Superman, she HAD valuable information on the situation.

The one in Metropolis wasn't a world engine, it was just a Kriptonian ship, the world engine was in the Indian ocean and it was the one doing all the work, hence why Superman went there 1st, for all we know he could have destroyed the kryptonian ship and the world engine would still be working.

Don't try to discern whether the Krypton scenes were realistic, the "realism" in MoS comes in the consequences of a superhuman fight actually happening in our world, not in the lore of the character, that part is sci-fi.

The biggest defense from supporters is that this is Supes' first day on the job and he's bound to make mistakes. Okay... But I've NEVER put on a Superman costume, and even I know if I fly through a 7-11 in the middle of the day, and it explodes, I've probably killed a few people. I just don't need Jor El's hologram to explain to me why that's a bad thing.

It's not a defense it's common sense, you literally don't see Superman causing the death of anyone, not even in the gas station explosion, you can clearly see there's no one there, and that's the only questionable thing Supes did that could have killed people, and he did it under a blinding rage when Zod threatened his mom, it was understandable for the character in that moment in time, eeeeverything else was the Kriptonians doing their thing, it's not like in Marvel where they clearly kill people but everybody just pretends they didn't.

It's funny that I addressed a couple of complaints on the Cap2 thread and everybody ignored them.... People have a strong double standard to criticize things in MoS they praise in Cap2.

To me MOS just a poorly written and constructed movie all around. TWS, on the other hand is true to its tone, and is built around a well crafted screenplay. I left the theater emotionally moved and feeling optimistic; Not cold and empty inside.

MoS didn't either, people need to stop ignoring that the majority of people actually like MoS and pretending that the oposite minority is the majority.

 

[Dr.Mirakle32]

Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

The only "convenient situation" was when Faora brought Lois into the ship which was not explained, in every other moment Lois had reason to be in, it wasn't like in previous iterations of the character where she had no clue who was Superman and still ended in convenient situations, in this case she WAS chasing Superman, she HAD valuable information on the situation.

At the climax, Zod and Superman are thrown miles across town into the train station. Lois just happens to show up when all is said and done?

Don't try to discern whether the Krypton scenes were realistic, the "realism" in MoS comes in the consequences of a superhuman fight actually happening in our world, not in the lore of the character, that part is sci-fi.

In that case I can bring up the oft-debated point how a genetically engineered scientist is physically fit enough to the kick the ass of a bunch of genetically engineered soldiers, but I digress.

It's not a defense it's common sense, you literally don't see Superman causing the death of anyone, not even in the gas station explosion, you can clearly see there's no one there, and that's the only questionable thing Supes did that could have killed people, and he did it under a blinding rage when Zod threatened his mom, it was understandable for the character in that moment in time, eeeeverything else was the Kriptonians doing their thing, it's not like in Marvel where they clearly kill people but everybody just pretends they didn't.

It's a 7-11 in the middle of the day. How the hell are we supposed to assume no one is there? I certainly didn't see an interior shot before the explosion, and like you said, it was blind rage and Supes didn't give a ****. People also seem to forget the money shots of Superman clearly throwing Zod through buildings at the climax, while pedestrians are looking on from below.

It's funny that I addressed a couple of complaints on the Cap2 thread and everybody ignored them.... People have a strong double standard to criticize things in MoS they praise in Cap2.

I didn't read them but I'm sure it has some issues. Every movie does. But that's the thing about a good movie; you can overlook the flaws. I'm as big of a DC fan as they come and Supes is my favorite character. That said, Marvel Studios is getting more right than wrong, and I'm a huge fan of what they're doing overall. Meanwhile, WB is dragging their feet when they should be on top. Does that make me a blind fanboy?

MoS didn't either, people need to stop ignoring that the majority of people actually like MoS and pretending that the oposite minority is the majority

It did decent box office, but it certainly didn't have the audience and critical response THE DARK KNIGHT and WINTER SOLDIER have. But yes, I'm sure some people like it. Then again, I talked to a guy in a comic book store who said it was so depressing it felt like walking out of SCHINDLER'S LIST. Everyone has opinions (but even I wouldn't go that far.)

 

[NASEDO]

Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

I'm curious to know how Batman will be introduced. Will he have already known about Superman? Batman needs to study and find Superman's weakness to stand a chance. A lot of stuff needs to happen in this "one" film. There's so much going on I'd be happy if they announced it as a Trilogy.

 

[jye4ever]

Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

Hopefully they don't stick to BvsS title, change that crap asap.

 

[Khev]

Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

But so many awesome movies have had "vs." in the title.

King Kong vs. Godzilla
Alien vs. Predator
Freddy vs. Jason
etc.

 

[jye4ever]

Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

 

[chewblacca]

Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

No, Dr. Mirakle has a point about Lois. At the end you see her looking up at Supes and Zod fighting. She sees them land in the station, at least a mile away. Yet right after Supes kills Zod there she is running down the stairs. Is she a jumper? Does she have a magic watch that stops time? Does she have a magic car that allows her to drive through all the rubble in record time? I still can't figure out how she got there so fast.

 

[GasparZizou]

Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

At the climax, Zod and Superman are thrown miles across town into the train station. Lois just happens to show up when all is said and done?

She could have just run there? they weren't miles though could have been blocks away for all we know. It's a little stretchy but nothing close as convenient as people say it is.

Edit: I take it back, it was a very long distance.

In that case I can bring up the oft-debated point how a genetically engineered scientist is physically fit enough to the kick the ass of a bunch of genetically engineered soldiers, but I digress.

Yes, that was also crap, I would have wanted to see Jor-El die without fighting, it would have been a more dignifying death rather than being sucker-stabbed by Zod, and it makes no sense that he was a well versed fighter as well.

I can argue that he was the most brilliant man in Krypton, the science of fighting wouldn't have been difficult to figure out for himself, but I'm not convinced by that myself, someone in the HT Zod thread mentioned that maybe Crowe throw a tantrum about not dying that way and he wanted to be a badass so they changed the scene.

It's a 7-11 in the middle of the day. How the hell are we supposed to assume no one is there? I certainly didn't see an interior shot before the explosion, and like you said, it was blind rage and Supes didn't give a ****. People also seem to forget the money shots of Superman clearly throwing Zod through buildings at the climax, while pedestrians are looking on from below.

I said the gas station, In the gas station there was no one there, and there's a shot for a second where you see where Supes and Zod went through the 7-Eleven and there's no one in the middle inside, like I said, it was the only questionable scene.

And no, Superman didn't throw Zod through any building at all, not a single one, on the other hand Zod did to Supes on various occasions, the only 2 times where Superman actually caused destruction was dragging Zod's face over some windows and pushing Zod through some beams in a deserted construction site.

It did decent box office, but it certainly didn't have the audience and critical response THE DARK KNIGHT and WINTER SOLDIER have. But yes, I'm sure some people like it. Then again, I talked to a guy in a comic book store who said it was so depressing it felt like walking out of SCHINDLER'S LIST. Everyone has opinions (but even I wouldn't go that far.)

Superman rarely gets the audience response Batman gets, ever.

To say it was depressing one really needs to have no soul, the 1st flight scene on it's own puts a smile on my face every time I watch it.

 

[jye4ever]

Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

that ***** was everywhere

 

[Master Wayne]

Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

 

[olbertfrog]

Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

As Irish jedi said, Lois being everywhere is one of The tropes of the universe and Snyder and co embraced it.
One thing i like is that the movie felt so real to some people that they are nitpicking on détails that they would usually let slide.
The building were empty yet they want to imagine a slaughter when Supes crashes in them, they are dubious when Lois shows up all the time when we are talking about flying supermen from outre space. And that Shlinder list thing is quite funny when you have people complaining that the end was too upbeat as they were not adressing the destruction.
Yep the movie has big flaws but at least its not tame and has ballzzz crazy ballzzz of steel.

 

[Deckard]

Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

The buildings are empty? There is no evacuation of Metropolis I assure you. When the Kryptonian ship begins using the gravity well, it takes down 12 buildings in a span of about 2 minutes. To evacuate a large skyscraper for the people above say the 20th floor could take upto 10 mins or more. They had a huge chunk of time to try to evacuate the towers on 9-11 and it didn't go so well.

The problem with the destruction in this movie is 9-11 imagery. You aren't American so you may not be familiar with this term but it basically means Zack was replicating the shaky cam street level footage of the 9-11 destruction when filming Perry running through the streets. For those of us who watched thousands die that day, there was no way to not have those feelings re-invoked watching that destruction. It's why so many critics said the same thing but why contrarily those complaints don't exist about Pacific Rim or The Avengers. The way those movies are filmed does not exploit a tradegy in order to convey an attack on a city and therefore remain fun. When you're thinking of the people who jumped or fell to their deaths from the tops of burning buildings because the movie is taking you to that place mentally, the movie has failed big time. (It's goal is an action movie with an entertaining climax, not a depressing reminder that terrorists exist) Couple that with the writer himself admitting he failed writing that ending the way he did.

 

[GasparZizou]

Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

The buildings Superman went through were empty, the point to that is that some people often say that Superman threw Zod through buildings killing a bunch of people, both of those claims are a lie.

The buildings destroyed by the world engine did have people, but villains kill people.

 

[jye4ever]

Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

I don't mind movies utilizing imagery from real tragedies, their goal is to make us feel.

Destruction is destruction.

Movies have shown people dying from cancer, getting hit by a car, disease, gun violence etc.

One death is no more important than anothers.