Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice (March 24th, 2016)

[GasparZizou]

Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

You're telling me MOS had an airtight script adapted by a master storyteller? That's what I'm arguing. The script was all over the map, had a weak resolution, and was more focused on worldbuilding than characterization or internal logic. Keep your violence and 9/11 imagery as long as you commit to it and show its longterm effects; just don't cut to business as usual the Planet with no sense of time elapsing (they're still having basketball games after a literal apocalypse?)

That's why it doesn't work, for me, as a decent film. The fact that it is so dour and takes this weak screenplay so seriously makes it an unenjoyable mess for me; and believe me, I've seen it several times, trying to like it. That's how much I love the character. The fact is, if it went through a few more drafts and had a satisfying wrap up, the movie could have been as epic as the trailers made it out to be.

I'm saying that most of the movie was well written, with some major brain farts but Zod was part of what was very well written.

I don't put MoS above TWS at all though, TWS is a masterpiece.

 

[Dr.Mirakle32]

Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

I'm saying that most of the movie was well written, with some major brain farts but Zod was part of what was very well written.

I don't put MoS above TWS at all though, TWS is a masterpiece.

Finally. We can agree on that!

 

[GasparZizou]

Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

Finally. We can agree on that!
View attachment 105242

poor Robin

 

[Deckard]

Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

I don't remember a single building falling in PR, and much less in Avengers....

You know why? The way they handled it.

Re-watch the Avengers, a Leviathon bursts through the, oh I'd say, 10-30th floors of a building and just topples it.(not the station) They don't go back and focus on a collapsing building that's no longer part of the action. They keep moving through the battle and don't intentionally give the impression there's people being crushed.

 

[Dr.Mirakle32]

Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

He's also not special. Rather than initially just being exposed to Superman alone and being in awe of him and what he can do the people of earth only become aware of his existence at the same time that the rest of his race come destroying. He loses something there within the universe they've created here.

This is also the first time, to my knowledge, that Superman's very existence is a huge liability to Earth. If Jor El never bonded him with the Codex and sent him to earth, Zod wouldn't give two ***** about visiting it in the first place.

 

[GasparZizou]

Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

You know why? The way they handled it.

Re-watch the Avengers, a Leviathon bursts through the, oh I'd say, 10-30th floors of a building and just topples it.(not the station) They don't go back and focus on a collapsing building that's no longer part of the action. They keep moving through the battle and don't intentionally give the impression there's people being crushed.

That's my point though, it's all denial

Will do re watch it though, I have a MCU marathon planned this weekend

Will skip the incredible Hulk though maybe....

 

[Nintenjoe]

Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

There's something about this image.... Not sure what it is.... Can't put my t̶h̶u̶m̶b̶ peenis on it...

....fixed.

 

[VintijDroidGutzz]

Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

 

[morphosis]

Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

This is also the first time, to my knowledge, that Superman's very existence is a huge liability to Earth. If Jor El never bonded him with the Codex and sent him to earth, Zod wouldn't give two ***** about visiting it in the first place.

You must not read the comics. And that's totally fine, not everyone does, but Superman being a burden on Metropolis and the earth has been a re-occurring theme in the comics for many decades and even up until now with DC52 they still cover this theme. Death and destruction of the people of earth is in a lot of superman story arcs. It's one reason Luthor has even tried to stop him in story arcs because he think the world is better off without him and many others have to.

The reason why Zod went to earth was when Clark activated the ship that crashed 20000 years ago, the ships system alerted Zod's ship of another Kryptonian. He had been searching for the codex for a long time and knew JorEl sent it away with Kal. So when the ship alerted him, he knew it was Kal. If Kal crashed on Mars he would have went to Mars. But Earth wound up being a good planet to terraform. As they showed in kryptonian history, they tried terraforming other planets and it never worked out.

 

[jye4ever]

Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

poor Robin

 

[jye4ever]

Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

I'm not a fan of MOS but it recreating 9/11 imagery has nothing to do with my reasons.

I reside in lower NY State.

I was deployed, first to an EOC than to the actual WTC site.

A coworker of mine died when the buildings came down.

I have attended 9/11 funerals and memorials.

Ok, so the movie tries very hard to make it look exactly like the collapsing buildings from 9/11.

A building collapsing is a building collapsing, I was in no way offended how MOS chose to present their version of destruction.

That's fine if Marvel chose to represent their Manhattan destruction in what they considered a less offensive manner but WB/DC did nothing wrong with how they chose to present theirs.

The deaths after the destruction Marvel handled much better.

Now, about that Pa Kent tornado suicide.

 

[Khev]

Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

The difference? Godzilla's a ****ing horror movie. You're supposed to feel uncomfortable and depressed since it strives to recreate the imagery associated with Hiroshima and Nagasaki only nine years prior. That's why the 1954 movie is the most tragic horror film I've ever seen. It still works. Why the hell would I want that same sense of dread watching a Superman movie?

Because dread followed by catharsis can be one of the most exhilarating experiences you can have while watching a movie. I'm not saying that MOS delivered an appropriate level of catharsis after showcasing all the devastation (instead it ends with neck-snapping, screaming, and then a strange level of smugness) but my point is the fact that it "went there" with regard to 9/11 wasn't some horrible thing in and of itself.

But maybe I'm just hardened to that sort of thing. I watched RoboCop as a 13 year old in the theater and was HORRIFIED over Mr. Kenny and Murphy's deaths and walked out of the theater with a smile on my face because the movie ended on such a high note. They just didn't get there with MOS.

 

[olbertfrog]

Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

They did for me.
Welcome to the planet and Clark smiling was awesome.

 

[Darth Zangetsu]

Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

poor Robin

Poor Boozer. This reminds me of the same thing that happened all last season to Tom Brady. He would try to high five teamates and they walked by like he didn't exist. It got funny after a while.

 

[karamazov80]

Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

But maybe I'm just hardened to that sort of thing. I watched RoboCop as a 13 year old in the theater and was HORRIFIED over Mr. Kenny and Murphy's deaths and walked out of the theater with a smile on my face because the movie ended on such a high note. They just didn't get there with MOS.

The movie seemed. . .off in lots of ways to me. You and some others were saying that Winter Soldier seemed realistic, and while I didn't feel it was that exactly, I did feel that I could relate to and understand the characters and situations, and that scenes logically built on and resolved issues from previous scenes. The way MOS progressed, and ended in particular, failed in that way for me. All this death and devastation, then he kills Zod and is a huge crying mess. OK, I don't like it in a Superman movie, but I can understand it for what it is. Next thing you know, Superman is thumbing his nose at the government, and smugly telling them to back the **** off. Is that a guy who is feeling melancholy and remorse, as the previous scenes suggested he should? You can get to the point where he is optimistic, or even smug, and have the audience get behind it. But I don't think the filmmakers understood how to get from point A to point B in the way that, say, they did in Robocop, or Avengers, or Die Hard, or any number of other, better films. I said this before, but I don't think the Snyder/Goyer tag team understand dramatic storytelling about people very well, and related to that, I don't think they understand very well the dynamics of conflict, and resolution. Better if Snyder is brought in to direct action sequences, but allow someone else to do everything else.

 

[The Josh]

Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

Can't say I ever really thought about 9/11 when watching MOS.

 

[olbertfrog]

Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

Im with you about the final scenes being off but they clearly cut some stuff to make a shorter film.
Smallville, pa Kent, daily planet and civilian being evacuated for exemple.
Wont be surprised there is a scene that aknowledges the destruction aftermath.

 

[Darth Zangetsu]

Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

The movie seemed. . .off in lots of ways to me. You and some others were saying that Winter Soldier seemed realistic, and while I didn't feel it was that exactly, I did feel that I could relate to and understand the characters and situations, and that scenes logically built on and resolved issues from previous scenes. The way MOS progressed, and ended in particular, failed in that way for me. All this death and devastation, then he kills Zod and is a huge crying mess. OK, I don't like it in a Superman movie, but I can understand it for what it is. Next thing you know, Superman is thumbing his nose at the government, and smugly telling them to back the **** off. Is that a guy who is feeling melancholy and remorse, as the previous scenes suggested he should? You can get to the point where he is optimistic, or even smug, and have the audience get behind it. But I don't think the filmmakers understood how to get from point A to point B in the way that, say, they did in Robocop, or Avengers, or Die Hard, or any number of other, better films. I said this before, but I don't think the Snyder/Goyer tag team understand dramatic storytelling about people very well, and related to that, I don't think they understand very well the dynamics of conflict, and resolution. Better if Snyder is brought in to direct action sequences, but allow someone else to do everything else.

Unpopular opinion incoming: Avengers is not some great film. It works, but is formulaic and has faux drama.They killed a character who at the time wasn't even in comics, and tried to play it up as if this was a massive thing. It wasn't. The fake drama of Tony catching the nuke and going into space. The fact all of Tony's character development in IM2 is washed away so he can be the quip machine. Loki's plan makes no sense. Avengers is enjoyable, but people act like it is the best written comic book movie ever. It's not even on the list. Oh and The leviathan things came through buildings, Tony went into one's mouth and killed it, it crashed on a building. And when the mother ship blows up and all the aliens just fall out of the sky. Avengers kind of just glosses over the fact that that city should have been a wreck, and people would have been dead. MOS at least acknowledges that superpowered beings fighting in a major urban area would cause untold damage and loss of life. Avengers glosses over it. And despite all of my problems with Avengers, I still like it. But I just don't think it's the brilliant comic movie everyone else does.

 

[jye4ever]

Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

The movie seemed. . .off in lots of ways to me. You and some others were saying that Winter Soldier seemed realistic, and while I didn't feel it was that exactly, I did feel that I could relate to and understand the characters and situations, and that scenes logically built on and resolved issues from previous scenes. The way MOS progressed, and ended in particular, failed in that way for me. All this death and devastation, then he kills Zod and is a huge crying mess. OK, I don't like it in a Superman movie, but I can understand it for what it is. Next thing you know, Superman is thumbing his nose at the government, and smugly telling them to back the **** off. Is that a guy who is feeling melancholy and remorse, as the previous scenes suggested he should? You can get to the point where he is optimistic, or even smug, and have the audience get behind it. But I don't think the filmmakers understood how to get from point A to point B in the way that, say, they did in Robocop, or Avengers, or Die Hard, or any number of other, better films. I said this before, but I don't think the Snyder/Goyer tag team understand dramatic storytelling about people very well, and related to that, I don't think they understand very well the dynamics of conflict, and resolution. Better if Snyder is brought in to direct action sequences, but allow someone else to do everything else.

Excellent break down.

 

[Khev]

Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

They did for me.
Welcome to the planet and Clark smiling was awesome.

You know I actually smiled at that too. It was a very good last couple of scenes. But it was almost a disjointed epilogue that didn't really seem a part of the events that came before it.

The movie seemed. . .off in lots of ways to me. You and some others were saying that Winter Soldier seemed realistic, and while I didn't feel it was that exactly,

I didn't say that TWS overall was realistic, just the dialogue and the way Cap fought compared to what we're used to seeing in superhero movies. Remember I consider it closer to Moonraker than All the President's Men.

I did feel that I could relate to and understand the characters and situations, and that scenes logically built on and resolved issues from previous scenes. The way MOS progressed, and ended in particular, failed in that way for me. All this death and devastation, then he kills Zod and is a huge crying mess. OK, I don't like it in a Superman movie, but I can understand it for what it is. Next thing you know, Superman is thumbing his nose at the government, and smugly telling them to back the **** off. Is that a guy who is feeling melancholy and remorse, as the previous scenes suggested he should? You can get to the point where he is optimistic, or even smug, and have the audience get behind it. But I don't think the filmmakers understood how to get from point A to point B in the way that, say, they did in Robocop, or Avengers, or Die Hard, or any number of other, better films. I said this before, but I don't think the Snyder/Goyer tag team understand dramatic storytelling about people very well, and related to that, I don't think they understand very well the dynamics of conflict, and resolution. Better if Snyder is brought in to direct action sequences, but allow someone else to do everything else.

MOS is a strange beast for me. It goofs in such big ways, but somehow I find the whole greater than it's parts. Codex nonsense? Silly. Tornado? Outright idiotic. Superman luring destruction to Earth before giving Earth a reason to appreciate him? Poorly thought out. Destruction, screaming, smugness, then uplifting first day at work? As you say totally all over the place. But damn if I don't still like the vibe I get while watching it. Cavill is awesome, the visuals are amazing, the music well done, the bad guys are total badasses, I just like it, even if I have hard time respecting it.