DC Joker Movie (Non-DCEU)

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There are multiple breadcrumb trails and I think it will depend on which characters/scenarios the viewer deems authentic.
Honestly my initial reaction was mildly positive yet I’m still thinking about it. That’s a value you can’t quantify with a Tomato Meter.
 
Forced commentary, unfocused story and self-indulgent at times but it kept a consistent tone throughout mainly thanks to the lead's performance.
 
Loved it! Very cleverly written with loads of black humour...Phoenix gives "another" masterclass in acting and is magnificent!

That apartment scene with Gary was worth the ticket price alone:)
 
There is definitely no way this dude is The Joker. I?ve heard the idea floating around that he is the inspiration for the eventual villain. That makes a lot more sense.

***Potential spoilers below*** (not sure if any of this merits spoiler tags)

Not the Joker because of the age gap with Bruce? Or because of the personality?

As far as personality, we have no idea what kind of Joker this character can be because this film was about the Arthur Fleck persona for almost the whole story. But Arthur Fleck no longer exists at the end. The Joker beyond this point could easily be more of the evil genius psychopath that he's traditionally associated as being.

Arthur Fleck was timid, reactionary, and had virtually no charisma whatsoever. But that all changed. Arthur had been living a lie about who he was and where he came from. He'd also been heavily medicated to suppress/alter his cognitive functionality. When he discovered his true background, and then went off his meds, he became a whole new person.

In that awesome apartment scene with Randall and Gary, Arthur used an Australian accent with Gary. He then spooked him by grabbing his leg just for a laugh. All that (even the way he barely held the door open for a while) was a new level of charisma. And grabbing the scissors, locking the door, playing a role . . . all foresight, strategy, and confidence. No longer just reactionary and timid.

If they did a sequel (and I hope they don't) set 10-15 years forward, the sky's the limit for what the Joker persona would actually become. His mind, free of the self-delusion to mask his pain - and free of meds, might actually be brilliantly capable of Joker-type mayhem. I could totally believe that if they were to ever go there with JP's Joker. Maybe that's just me, though.
 
***Potential spoilers below*** (not sure if any of this merits spoiler tags)

Not the Joker because of the age gap with Bruce? Or because of the personality?

As far as personality, we have no idea what kind of Joker this character can be because this film was about the Arthur Fleck persona for almost the whole story. But Arthur Fleck no longer exists at the end. The Joker beyond this point could easily be more of the evil genius psychopath that he's traditionally associated as being.

Arthur Fleck was timid, reactionary, and had virtually no charisma whatsoever. But that all changed. Arthur had been living a lie about who he was and where he came from. He'd also been heavily medicated to suppress/alter his cognitive functionality. When he discovered his true background, and then went off his meds, he became a whole new person.

In that awesome apartment scene with Randall and Gary, Arthur used an Australian accent with Gary. He then spooked him by grabbing his leg just for a laugh. All that (even the way he barely held the door open for a while) was a new level of charisma. And grabbing the scissors, locking the door, playing a role . . . all foresight, strategy, and confidence. No longer just reactionary and timid.

If they did a sequel (and I hope they don't) set 10-15 years forward, the sky's the limit for what the Joker persona would actually become. His mind, free of the self-delusion to mask his pain - and free of meds, might actually be brilliantly capable of Joker-type mayhem. I could totally believe that if they were to ever go there with JP's Joker. Maybe that's just me, though.

***Potential spoilers below*** (not sure if any of this merits spoiler tags)

Not the Joker because of the age gap with Bruce? Or because of the personality?

As far as personality, we have no idea what kind of Joker this character can be because this film was about the Arthur Fleck persona for almost the whole story. But Arthur Fleck no longer exists at the end. The Joker beyond this point could easily be more of the evil genius psychopath that he's traditionally associated as being.

Arthur Fleck was timid, reactionary, and had virtually no charisma whatsoever. But that all changed. Arthur had been living a lie about who he was and where he came from. He'd also been heavily medicated to suppress/alter his cognitive functionality. When he discovered his true background, and then went off his meds, he became a whole new person.

In that awesome apartment scene with Randall and Gary, Arthur used an Australian accent with Gary. He then spooked him by grabbing his leg just for a laugh. All that (even the way he barely held the door open for a while) was a new level of charisma. And grabbing the scissors, locking the door, playing a role . . . all foresight, strategy, and confidence. No longer just reactionary and timid.

If they did a sequel (and I hope they don't) set 10-15 years forward, the sky's the limit for what the Joker persona would actually become. His mind, free of the self-delusion to mask his pain - and free of meds, might actually be brilliantly capable of Joker-type mayhem. I could totally believe that if they were to ever go there with JP's Joker. Maybe that's just me, though.

Doesn?t matter how much his mind cleared up because even when the fog was lifted and he broke free from his cob webs his great manifest was about railing against the freaking 1%.

WTF is that about seriously his mastermind is no different than every other poor slob that blames the 1% for everything.

Even if the 1% were to blame for many of societies woes for that to be the freaking Joker?s main motivation for his uprising is a huge failure for this movie.

Then they went and added bullying BULLYING to part of his grand manifest!!!

BULLYING and the 1%.

lulz

I don?t care how gorgeous and well-crafted this movie is as a movie about Joker?s origins it is a massive massive failure.

MCU might be colorful well engineered theme park attractions like Scorcese just said but at least the characters within that universe act how they?re supposed to be......well except the Hulk lol

**** this movie lol

Ledger Joker > Fake whiny Joker
 
Doesn?t matter how much his mind cleared up because even when the fog was lifted and he broke free from his cob webs his great manifest was about railing against the freaking 1%.

WTF is that about seriously his mastermind is no different than every other poor slob that blames the 1% for everything.

Even if the 1% were to blame for many of societies woes for that to be the freaking Joker?s main motivation for his uprising is a huge failure for this movie.

Then they went and added bullying BULLYING to part of his grand manifest!!!

BULLYING and the 1%.

lulz

I don?t care how gorgeous and well-crafted this movie is as a movie about Joker?s origins it is a massive massive failure.

MCU might be colorful well engineered theme park attractions like Scorcese just said but at least the characters within that universe act how they?re supposed to be......well except the Hulk lol

**** this movie lol

Ledger Joker > Fake whiny Joker

:lol

Okay, I totally understand your point with the class warfare motivation. I concede to you on that. But I can also see an evolved Joker coming from this that just embraces general mayhem, and who relishes orchestrating it.

Either way, I'm just really glad that the film delivered (for me, at least) in terms of artistic quality. If they keep it a non-canon movie meant to be a one-shot character study, I will always appreciate it as a film in that respect.

Maybe I'm just glad to have any Joker that's not the Leto Joker. :lol
 
It popped into my head that the Waynes would not be out and about unguarded but then I felt like I was modernizing it too much. It was the eighties. Even Bruce was probably coked up.

Plus they already characterized Thomas as a kind of gentrified John Wayne ( with a - perhaps hereditary - violent streak). I could see him ego-tripping his family into a bad situation.

Not disagreeing with you btw I just think the movie has some cool things to talk about, love or hate it.

Fair enough regarding the time period and the john wayne bravado great points but I think even back then armed security was a given.

The family still has to be murdered I just want the location changed lol


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:lol

Okay, I totally understand your point with the class warfare motivation. I concede to you on that. But I can also see an evolved Joker coming from this that just embraces general mayhem, and who relishes orchestrating it.

Either way, I'm just really glad that the film delivered (for me, at least) in terms of artistic quality. If they keep it a non-canon movie meant to be a one-shot character study, I will always appreciate it as a film in that respect.

Maybe I'm just glad to have any Joker that's not the Leto Joker. :lol

Actually making this movie a one and done would totally solidify this movie as massive failure about Joker’s origins!

This Joker needs an immediate follow up to show him with some semblance of a greater reason why he should exist.

Holy crap this Joker class warefare WAS TDKR BANE ALL OVER AGAIN!

LOL WB REPACKAGED TDKR BANE ALL OVER AGAIN AND FANS ARE CELEBRATING IT’S ELOQUENT CRAFTSMANSHIP!

Phoenix played Bane with makeup. :rotfl

Catwoman gave the same monologue to Bruce in TDKR! :slap

WB just played a Joke on us.
 
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***Potential spoilers below*** (not sure if any of this merits spoiler tags)

Not the Joker because of the age gap with Bruce? Or because of the personality?

As far as personality, we have no idea what kind of Joker this character can be because this film was about the Arthur Fleck persona for almost the whole story. But Arthur Fleck no longer exists at the end. The Joker beyond this point could easily be more of the evil genius psychopath that he's traditionally associated as being.

Arthur Fleck was timid, reactionary, and had virtually no charisma whatsoever. But that all changed. Arthur had been living a lie about who he was and where he came from. He'd also been heavily medicated to suppress/alter his cognitive functionality. When he discovered his true background, and then went off his meds, he became a whole new person.

In that awesome apartment scene with Randall and Gary, Arthur used an Australian accent with Gary. He then spooked him by grabbing his leg just for a laugh. All that (even the way he barely held the door open for a while) was a new level of charisma. And grabbing the scissors, locking the door, playing a role . . . all foresight, strategy, and confidence. No longer just reactionary and timid.

If they did a sequel (and I hope they don't) set 10-15 years forward, the sky's the limit for what the Joker persona would actually become. His mind, free of the self-delusion to mask his pain - and free of meds, might actually be brilliantly capable of Joker-type mayhem. I could totally believe that if they were to ever go there with JP's Joker. Maybe that's just me, though.

IMO Arthur is painted very clearly as a person who cannot function, on meds or off. So even though he did display sinister intentions in the apartment he never truly executed a plan. He's not a criminal mastermind. He's still easily influenced through the climax - he had a plan for the talk show but didn't follow through because it was not going the way he anticipated. So he does have the I Am Iron Man moment, but there's not much behind it. He is immediately captured and only briefly escapes out of coincidence. And that sequence, like many, is highly suspect because we see everything from his perspective. I don't see any of this as a negative - it's why I find it more interesting than it would have been as a straightforward origin. The more I think about it I feel like it's very significant that there is no "The" in the title. Aesthetics aside, this is an "origin" in which just about any Joker incarnation can co-exist. Arthur made Joker a brand. I could more easily imagine the then-current Joker Mask trend dying down but in the future (present) other people adopting the persona for it's historical significance. Which would obviously trigger the F out of Bruce Wayne.

But I can't point to anything concrete that makes it impossible that Arthur evolves into The Joker. Just my gut on first viewing.
 
Man if I could apply my own logic to the Nolan Batman I would value those movies so much more. Bale is just proto Batman and RobinJohnBlake gets it right.

I do love movies that inspire mixed feelings. Nothing thrills me more than a 50% RT score. :lol
 
IMO Arthur is painted very clearly as a person who cannot function, on meds or off. So even though he did display sinister intentions in the apartment he never truly executed a plan. He's not a criminal mastermind. He's still easily influenced through the climax - he had a plan for the talk show but didn't follow through because it was not going the way he anticipated. So he does have the I Am Iron Man moment, but there's not much behind it. He is immediately captured and only briefly escapes out of coincidence. And that sequence, like many, is highly suspect because we see everything from his perspective. I don't see any of this as a negative - it's why I find it more interesting than it would have been as a straightforward origin. The more I think about it I feel like it's very significant that there is no "The" in the title. Aesthetics aside, this is an "origin" in which just about any Joker incarnation can co-exist. Arthur made Joker a brand. I could more easily imagine the then-current Joker Mask trend dying down but in the future (present) other people adopting the persona for it's historical significance. Which would obviously trigger the F out of Bruce Wayne.

But I can't point to anything concrete that makes it impossible that Arthur evolves into The Joker. Just my gut on first viewing.

What the hell was it with that Benny Hill Scooby Doo comical ending with the orderly chasing him back and forth down the same hallway lol
 
I saw it for a second time. IMO, the best comic origin movie I've seen. I love the score too.

Phoenix has now join Ledger, Nicholson and Romero as one of my favorite Jokers....and Pennywise as a clown. :lol

Why hasn't Hot Toys not shown a figure yet? :gah:

I want that blood smile Mr J!!
 
What the hell was it with that Benny Hill Scooby Doo comical ending with the orderly chasing him back and forth down the same hallway lol

Yeah, that's why I'm again flummoxed by people calling it "realistic."

At least 20% of the movie is fantasy. Probably more. Need future free viewings for my analysis droid.

BNdroid.jpg
 
Holy crap what a crappy Joker origin.

This is embarrassing why are Joker fans applauding this nonsense.

Are you fkn kidding me he became the freaking Joker because of his jealousy of the 1% give me a freaking break.

What a whiny little *****.

Boo Hoo the wealthy don?t care about garbage piling up and they cut my medicaid boo hoo i?m now the crown prince of crime watch me rant against the wealthy....boring!

The movie big climax is his verbal rant monologue against the 1%!

GTFO of here with this whiny *****.

Joker my ass.

This Joker killing random people will make zero sense.

Nolan?s Joker didn?t give a crap about anyone he was a genius anarchy opportunist.


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Thank God I'm not the only one who does not think this movie is a masterpiece on here :lol

I actually thought you would not like it Jye.. Not sure why, I just had a feeling that those are what your complaints would be.. I think they have merit for sure.

In fact I was thinking of this film earlier and realized that this Joker only killed people he felt was mean to him or wronged him. He let the one small guy go and said "you are the only one that was ever nice to me" I would have thought it was more Joker like without that statement.

However you could take that as since he feels nobody was ever nice to him then everyone is a target.

Like you I had an issue with his reasoning.. I thought the Monologue scene with De Niro was awful... I was ready to hate the movie when it was showing the outcome of that monologue on all the TV screens.. But I really loved what came after. For whatever reason that brought the film together for me and I was able to give it a positive review...

But since this is a non canon Joker film I am also ok with the origin explanation. I mean... How many people complain and whine and play the part of the victim nowadays... I mean its all the SJW and Antifa people do... All this Joker needed was a safe place but he never got it :lol

There is definitely no way this dude is The Joker. I?ve heard the idea floating around that he is the inspiration for the eventual villain. That makes a lot more sense.

At one point in the film I thought that might be the direction it was going.
 
What the hell was it with that Benny Hill Scooby Doo comical ending with the orderly chasing him back and forth down the same hallway lol

Actually I like that moment... That was very Joker. He kills his therapist and enjoys a dance and then enjoys a bit of tag... IDK I thought it worked. IMO it was showing he was now finally the Joker.

Remember TDK Joker is not the end all be all of Joker personas..
 
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Doesn?t matter how much his mind cleared up because even when the fog was lifted and he broke free from his cob webs his great manifest was about railing against the freaking 1%.

WTF is that about seriously his mastermind is no different than every other poor slob that blames the 1% for everything.

Even if the 1% were to blame for many of societies woes for that to be the freaking Joker?s main motivation for his uprising is a huge failure for this movie.

Then they went and added bullying BULLYING to part of his grand manifest!!!

BULLYING and the 1%.

lulz

I don?t care how gorgeous and well-crafted this movie is as a movie about Joker?s origins it is a massive massive failure.

MCU might be colorful well engineered theme park attractions like Scorcese just said but at least the characters within that universe act how they?re supposed to be......well except the Hulk lol

**** this movie lol

Ledger Joker > Fake whiny Joker

I did not like how they made everyone who was in the 1% basically an *******..

I thought the way Alfred acted was mean spirted as well as T. Wayne's Granted this guy screwed around with Bruce but they both knew who this kids mother was and I have to assume they knew what he went though with the abuse. For Alfred to just say "leave now before you embarrass yourself and T Wayne to belt him in the face... IDK... It could have been handled with the same outcome without both characters being ass hats. T Wayne never came across as a good man..

I know its the whole 1% vs poor angle but it didn't work for me.



I don't agree with this being a massive failure as an origin movie though... Its not the end all be all of origins..

The pre-Joker was a sad character in the comic "The Killing Joke" its not really who I think of as the joker either when I think if where he came from yet that seems to be many peoples belief as the true origin as the joker. He was just some failed comic looser who was in the wrong place at the wrong time.. Became the joker with no skill or intelligence to make him the clown prince of crime that we know.. I figure that one along with this one has had a few years to become the Joker.


Still not 100% sure how I feel about the film.. A repeat viewing will solidify my feeling more I think.
 
Well not the 1% but society as a whole, I?m part of the neighborhood app locally and they noticed we have a homeless problem, a lot of them are mentally ill who got their meds cut off from budget cuts and end up on the streets, this mirrors the movie more than anything, take a guy who stops being helped, and then the 1% do nothing about it, of course he snapped.


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So was Arthur really an orphan or was he Wayne's kid? When Arthur was putting on the makeup, he was holding a picture of his young mother and on the back it had Wayne's initials and some kind of message. I think it's possible that he was his kid. He's clearly powerful enough to hide it.

Also, how much of what happens in the film really happened since Arthur stopped taking his medication and was clearly delusional? Maybe most of it didn't happen at all.
 
Yeah I guess you guys are right I just hope that Batman the greatest detective has the fortitude to take on a villain who hates bullying and Goldman Sachs.

If Batman has any trouble he can always call in an middle school they all have great anti bullying programs now.




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