Entire school staff fired

[316what]

I feel for you Kibishii. You, Ween, and the others who have followed this calling deserve a helluva lot more than you get. My hat is off to all of you.

 

[karamazov80]

I feel for you Kibishii. You, Ween, and the others who have followed this calling deserve a helluva lot more than you get. My hat is off to all of you.

 

[The Ween]

I feel for you Kibishii. You, Ween, and the others who have followed this calling deserve a helluva lot more than you get. My hat is off to all of you.

Thank you, I don't teach. Well, kinda. I'm support staff. As you can tell if you read any of Kibishii's posts and them read mine.

Spend most of your time with 5 and 6 year olds, your brain kinda goes

 

[Kibishii]

...If those guys don't like it, then they should move to a district where the kids do better, and where jobs aren't going to be in jeopardy like that. Teachers have to learn to play the game just like everyone else in this environment.

I have two things to say to that. First, that completely screws the schools in underperforming districts because they spend the resources to train the teachers and put them through BITSA and when these teachers leave, it just starts a quick revolving door of teachers in the district. I have seen this first hand and it is wrong on every moral level.

Second, alot of these schools in better districts, won't take teachers without a certain amount of years of credentialed instruction AND they want you to start your tenure over. That is how it is in Redlands (where my kid is going to go to school)

By punishing teachers in low socioeconomic areas with "Assessment Accountability," all you are doing is ensuring that "underperforming" districts get all of the new, untenured, sometimes uncredentialed teachers who haven't mastered the grade standards and haven't learned classroom management.

...schools teach to tests and essentially stop trying to keep kids in the schools if they aren't doing well... This is all a by-product of the "no child left behind" business, and the "race to the top" stuff will probably be only marginally better. Theoretically it is all good, but people often do what they have to, and no more, and sometimes they violate the spirit of these laws when they do so.

Man, this is so sickingly true and what choice do we have? I have not been allowed to teach PE, art, music, or health in years and the only time I am allowed to teach social studies is when it connects to a theme in our language arts textbook. The government tests us on math, reading, writing, and science, so if my principal comes in, I better be teaching one of those and be able to show her the exact standard.

 

[The Mike]

I work in a public school, with 80% on free lunch and 85% considered low income. I have for 5 years going on 6. Our school was seriously low performing when I joined. They had fired 50% of our school staff including all of the teachers who weren't tenured and the entire administrative staff. In 1999, my school's API was 497. When I joined on they barely cracked 500, I think the API was 542 or somewhere around there. Last year our API was 704. We have gone up 200 points. 91 points in the last three years alone.

Why? Our Principal isn't afraid to consistently put his job on the line. They are pissed he ISN'T telling us to teach to the test. The only thing is our numbers are going up so they can't do ____ about it. We examine data of our kid's proficiency and see what standards they've learned and what they haven't. We are constantly looking for ways to refine our teaching and we've adopted a Professional Learning Community where our teachers work collaboratively to make sure every student is getting the best education we can give instead of the traditional crap shoot of some teachers are good and some are bad.

Our problem now? All of those teachers who weren't fired, don't want to change their teaching styles even though their numbers and proficiency numbers are low. They don't care, they do what they've done for years. So we are stuck. They are tenured and the process to be rid of an ineffective teacher is called PAR and takes 2 years. My principal is putting three of them through PAR but still has his hands tied by the union.

I was a Union representative for 2 years. I fought the good fight. Until I realized in my district, our union was only interested in two things. Protecting the teachers who had been there for years because their buddies are all high ranking on the Union board whether they suck or not, that and picking fights with our district just because they can.

I'm all for a union because there is good that they do, but IMHO education needs to adopt a business model and protect those that are innovative, good and still love their jobs and then be rid of those who should have quit years ago.

Ballsy move and I bet you that in that school there were teachers who actually wanted to do good and are now tarnished by their association with this but if that is what it takes, then that is what it takes.

 

[316what]

Spend most of your time with 5 and 6 year olds, your brain kinda goes

I feel your pain....I work for the US Government.

 

[316what]

Add The Mike to the list.

 

[Kibishii]

Why? Our Principal isn't afraid to consistently put his job on the line. They are pissed he ISN'T telling us to teach to the test. The only thing is our numbers are going up so they can't do ____ about it. We examine data of our kid's proficiency and see what standards they've learned and what they haven't. We are constantly looking for ways to refine our teaching and we've adopted a Professional Learning Community where our teachers work collaboratively to make sure every student is getting the best education we can give instead of the traditional crap shoot of some teachers are good and some are bad.

I completely disagree with you about running schools like a business because the "unreasonable results, no matter what, or else" mentality is counterproductive and you can't run a place designed for education in the same manner that you do a business for profit. ESPECIALLY when you are having the government expecting 100% of all kids to be proficient.

I do agree with you that administration is a huge deal, schools should be more efficient, and that some teachers can be inflexible.

I fully support her, but I know that our principal went balls-to-the-wall to break up the groups of difficult "team teachers" at our site- which was a very good thing- and she hounds teachers that she doesn't like; if you disagree with her, she will politely recommend that you transfer to another school. She makes it clear to us that we need to teach to the test. The lack of PE minutes has been brought up many, many times and she just blows it off. Kind of the same thing, we were 807 on our 2009 API and 757 in 2008 so she knows that the district is not going to harass her.

Our intermediate team is great and we meet once a month on our Thursday prep time to look over https://secure.oarsaccess.net/fontana/ and plan our Response to Intervention blocks to reteach standards and we also have alot of flexibility in planning the LA/Math curriculum to hit certain standards more than others.

 

[The Mike]

Here is the thing. Business don't run on 100% proficiency, the run on results. If you are good at your job and showing gains your job is safe. That is the basic business model if you remove the variables. Schools shouldn't ever run expecting 100% proficiency but they SHOULD be run expecting kids to go from proficiency. Our Science Department has made so many gains they are 53% proficient at all three grade levels. Literally if they go up one percent that is huge. They should just be working to maintain. Our History department has been on the decline going from 33% to 24%. Our Math department has not moved. That is like a salesman not selling a thing just showing up and getting a paycheck. To make things worse the teachers just shrug their shoulders. They can't be touched due to tenure.

The business model that I'm proposing isn't "unreasonable results, no matter what, or else" its give me some gains or at least effort to better the education and the proficiency of your children or else you have no business being here. I teach an average class of 36, every class. I teach 6 classes a day. That is over 200 kids a day that come through my classroom to learn what they are supposed to for the 8th grade. If I decide "____ it, I don't care. If they learn they learn. If not, then they don't." That is 200 kids who will go on to the next grade level unprepared and for the majority they will never fill the gap completely. There are a ton of teachers like that. That is where we get the bad rap because those teachers are visual and other teachers are willing to turn the blind eye. If you know of a teacher who is crappy, they are joke of the school but no one does anything you are sacrificing all of those kids for at least one year willingly and that is criminal.

The Education system needs to be shaken up. If I'm not doing my job I deserve to be told. I deserve to be given a chance to change. If I can't I deserve to be fired. That is the reality tenure or not. That is the PAR system, that isn't being used. If the shake-up whatever it is ends up pushing me out of the system then fine, I feel the education of the children in my school is worth that.

The schools will never meet the government's requirements. The government will never do anything about it because its too much to handle. That is a useless argument both ways. What the reality is that we have kids who NEED to be educated, who NEED to be thought of first, not the teachers. Its not the kid's problem 90% of the time, its a teacher who doesn't ask for help with classroom management (if the kids are going ape____ they can't possibly teach), its teachers who are unwilling to change for the betterment of their students. The schools, the Principals and School Boards need to take responsibility and fix the problems in house, that is the only way to breed change. I'm a good teacher, I know it. Not because my scores show it (every year I've had increases and am yet to have an unsuccessful year), not because I'm willing but because I care about my student's education. I believe there are more teachers like that then otherwise overall and I'm sick of the teachers who are lame ducks, who are the ones giving us a bad name weighing down progress. Unfortunately the lame duck's numbers are large enough that they can't be ignored any longer.

 

[Kibishii]

I understand what you are saying, and I support assessment and looking for ways to improve education and instruction, but (and maybe I am wrong) I feel like you are ignoring the socioeconomic issues and the strict accountability idea is what further leads to teacher exodus from poor areas. Why would I stay in area where it is a hell of alot harder to teach and my job is at risk when I can go to the "better" district?

 

[DarthNeil]

I work in a public school, with 80% on free lunch and 85% considered low income. I have for 5 years going on 6. Our school was seriously low performing when I joined. They had fired 50% of our school staff including all of the teachers who weren't tenured and the entire administrative staff. In 1999, my school's API was 497. When I joined on they barely cracked 500, I think the API was 542 or somewhere around there. Last year our API was 704. We have gone up 200 points. 91 points in the last three years alone.

Why? Our Principal isn't afraid to consistently put his job on the line. They are pissed he ISN'T telling us to teach to the test. The only thing is our numbers are going up so they can't do ____ about it. We examine data of our kid's proficiency and see what standards they've learned and what they haven't. We are constantly looking for ways to refine our teaching and we've adopted a Professional Learning Community where our teachers work collaboratively to make sure every student is getting the best education we can give instead of the traditional crap shoot of some teachers are good and some are bad.

Our problem now? All of those teachers who weren't fired, don't want to change their teaching styles even though their numbers and proficiency numbers are low. They don't care, they do what they've done for years. So we are stuck. They are tenured and the process to be rid of an ineffective teacher is called PAR and takes 2 years. My principal is putting three of them through PAR but still has his hands tied by the union.

I was a Union representative for 2 years. I fought the good fight. Until I realized in my district, our union was only interested in two things. Protecting the teachers who had been there for years because their buddies are all high ranking on the Union board whether they suck or not, that and picking fights with our district just because they can.

I'm all for a union because there is good that they do, but IMHO education needs to adopt a business model and protect those that are innovative, good and still love their jobs and then be rid of those who should have quit years ago.

Ballsy move and I bet you that in that school there were teachers who actually wanted to do good and are now tarnished by their association with this but if that is what it takes, then that is what it takes.

PLC in da house... Been to any of the Dufours' conferences?

Personally I have no problem with educators being held accountable-- but that's only if we were also paid according to our abilities/results... I'd get Drew Rosenhaus to represent me and get a big payday.

Yes I'm an educator-- and I'm damn good at my job... Add me to the list.

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[316what]

... Add me to the list.

I was just about to add you...then you asked to be added. I'll have to think about it first.

 

[SnakeDoctor]

It is standard for most employment situations that you are judged on your performance. Their performance was low, their pay was high, and they were unwilling to do what is necessary to get the job done.

I have no problem with this.

SnakeDoc

 

[The Ween]

Teachers here can't ask for classroom management because they'll get none. In our system, the kids (and parents) rule the roost. It's anything THEY want. So many times we've had to change the way we do things because of one student (or parent complaint). If you have a student who is a holy terror, you better learn to suck it up because unless he get violent, he's your's. Have a handful of those in your class, you get nothing done.

 

[karamazov80]

I have two things to say to that. First, that completely screws the schools in underperforming districts because they spend the resources to train the teachers and put them through BITSA and when these teachers leave, it just starts a quick revolving door of teachers in the district. I have seen this first hand and it is wrong on every moral level.

Second, alot of these schools in better districts, won't take teachers without a certain amount of years of credentialed instruction AND they want you to start your tenure over. That is how it is in Redlands (where my kid is going to go to school)

By punishing teachers in low socioeconomic areas with "Assessment Accountability," all you are doing is ensuring that "underperforming" districts get all of the new, untenured, sometimes uncredentialed teachers who haven't mastered the grade standards and haven't learned classroom management.

I don't disagree at all, as I wasn't saying this was a good thing, but something that you might expect given that these teachers are rational agents who want stable jobs. This goes back to teachers doing what is in their own, narrow interests versus that of a "greater good." Most people are going to do the former. The system has to be set up in such a way that the latter is achieved. Ideally, the system would encourage good teachers to stay in bad districts. As the Mike says, sometimes this works when you get fresh ideas and ballsy administrators, but how often do you see this in the public school system? Or any walk of life, really, when it is usually safer and better for your long-term interests not to rock the boat. Forcing newer teachers to work in bad districts right out the gate is a horrible idea because, as you say, these teachers don't yet know how to teach really, and they are gonna get turned off and burned out, and will be more likely to leave before having a chance to become good. But this is a necessary policy for states, because better, more experienced teachers can go where they want, and have no real incentive to teach at trouble schools, beyond a possible interest in "the greater good."

This is one example of the system being broken. And as far as I have seen, we still haven't found a real effective middle ground between promoting the best outcomes for kids (in a way that schools can't artificially manipulate outcomes to technically meet some standard), and providing incentives for good teachers who can makes serious in-roads toward positive, long-term change. The impetus for any of this has to be political leadership that understands and values education, and is willing to do what it takes to promote real positive change without resorting to ideological platitudes. Why? Because the public is more concerned with not paying taxes or in who is or isn't gonna support abortion. Until the leadership comes, public priorities and perceptions won't change, and until that happens, we're gonna see this nonsense perpetuating itself over and over again.

 

[Kibishii]

Until the leadership comes, public priorities and perceptions won't change, and until that happens, we're gonna see this nonsense perpetuating itself over and over again.

I think this is where alot of the issue is. People need to understand that really good schools, with really good teachers who WANT to stay where they are needed most, is going cost money and politicians are going to have to rock the political boat. Don't get me wrong, I know the unions can make things difficult, but there is a ton of waste out there and I think the current recession is helping some districts learn how to be leaner.

I also think accountability can be a good thing, especially when you help teachers become better and create more efficient classrooms, but you can't compare apples and oranges in thinking you can run a public school system in the same way that you run a business whose only goal is to cut costs and make a profit. Look at what deregulation and the "business" model has done to health care in America.

We also have to remember that parents are rarely, if ever, held accountable for irresponsible parenting. Alot of progress would be achieved if the government made a push to invest in widespread parenting classes in underperforming districts and actually required parents to take an active role in their child's behavior and education.

As the Ween said, behavior problems and students with learning disabilities are public school problems because no charter or private school will deal with them for long.

 

[The Mike]

I feel like you are ignoring the socioeconomic issues and the strict accountability idea is what further leads to teacher exodus from poor areas. Why would I stay in area where it is a hell of alot harder to teach and my job is at risk when I can go to the "better" district?

That has to do with how you are as a person. Maybe you aren't fully reading my posts. I work in a district that is 85% low income. I work in a district where 80% are on free lunch and 73% are on free lunch and breakfast. I'm not in a better district. I could go literally 30 miles south to the Pleasanton Unified School District and make $25,000 more a year. Their kids are averaging higher proficiencies than I do. I live in front of a high school which if I worked there it would take me 5 minutes walking to get to work and I'd be making the same amount of money if not slightly more. Instead I commute an average of 40 minutes each day, through traffic to teach at my school because its where I'm needed. Out of the 65 teachers at my site, only three live in the city we work in and 30 commute more than an hour, why? We are needed. It takes someone of very low character to bail out on kids that need you simply for a paycheck. If you love your job and know you are making a difference you'll travel for hours to be there. Its when you hate your job or dislike your circumstances that you start to look for something "closer" or "better". Let the teachers who are so full of themselves they ignore the call to teach leave those districts, I promise you the kids are better for it.

PLC in da house... Been to any of the Dufours' conferences?

2 actually, most recently in LA about two years ago. I still am involved with DuFours and Marzano. Right now my leadership team is reading "The Art and Science of Teaching" by Marzano and seeing how they will apply in our particular site.

Teachers here can't ask for classroom management because they'll get none. In our system, the kids (and parents) rule the roost. It's anything THEY want. So many times we've had to change the way we do things because of one student (or parent complaint). If you have a student who is a holy terror, you better learn to suck it up because unless he get violent, he's your's. Have a handful of those in your class, you get nothing done.

Your district is handicapping your teachers. Good classroom management is more important than even knowledge of your discipline. I shake my head when I see 30 year olds scared of 12 year olds. Its all about presense and how you conduct yourself in the class. You show them who is boss and catch issues before they get out of hand and you'll be fine. Your school is one of the ones that seriously needs someone in there with balls to show the parents that teachers need to be able to do their job despite their brats thinking otherwise.

 

[hairlesswookiee]

Your district is handicapping your teachers. Good classroom management is more important than even knowledge of your discipline. I shake my head when I see 30 year olds scared of 12 year olds. Its all about presense and how you conduct yourself in the class. You show them who is boss and catch issues before they get out of hand and you'll be fine. Your school is one of the ones that seriously needs someone in there with balls to show the parents that teachers need to be able to do their job despite their brats thinking otherwise.

Totally agree with you Mike. My friend is currently teaching right now, and is going back to school for a different major. He said he just can't do it anymore because he's sick and tired of having his hands tied because angry parents come in and complain about their kids getting detention for being a distraction in class.

This is what put him over the line: One kid was being loud and obnoxious near the end of class, so of course my friend warned him to chill out until the lecture was finished. The kid seriously told him to shut up...so he wrote the kid up for detention. That kid went and called his mom on his cell phone in between classes, and by the end of the day she went up there and complained to the principal about it.

 

[Darkseed]

My wife and mother-in-law both teach in the public sector. I guess 40 - 50 years worth of "on the job training" between both of them. The Mike and Kibishii bring solid arguements to the table regarding teacher expectations and performance.

I am looking in from an ousider perspective. Unions, administrator's, teacher's and government all play vital roles to the decline of our educational system. I believe the missing element is parents. A large portion of results rest with parents who have no accountability for the success of THEIR children.

Both my wife and I have college degrees along with various ongoing educational certificates in our respective fields. We have six children all in the honor's programs at their various schools. Why? We take an active role in the development of our children, participate and volunteer at the local schools. Two of the six children are disabled with 504 plans to hold the school, the children and ourselves accountable for their success. It is a difficult committment with constant obstacles and hurdles but we push forward because we are committed to their success.

(Generalization): Parents who invest time in their children's educational development have kids doing well, those who chose not to participate in their children's educational development have kids not doing well. The success or failure in a student's educational development is 50% school and 50% parents.

(Generalization 2): Parents are too self-absorbed in their own business (work, school, children etc.) and rely to heavily on the school system for the success or failure of their children. I understand teacher's are paid to teach but learning doesn't stop in the classroom. Parents need to be accountable for the child's development after school until they return back to school. Parents who do not invest the time send a clear message to their children about the importance of school. Their children often struggle and disrupt the classroom. These students not only disrupt their own education but takeaway from other children's learning. Yet the blame ultimately falls back unto the school because THEY have standards. BS.

I understand economics, education, ethnicity, government and the school district itself are obstacles in learning but we all too often give parents a pass. Unrightly so IMO.

 

[The Mike]

I completely agree that it begins and ends with parents. I have kids whose parents work 2 sometimes 3 jobs and their kids are doing stellar because that is what is expected of them. They can't watch their kids every minute, I see them more than they do at times but their parents have instilled in them an importance around education to which they are held up to. I also have student who have failed every grading period, every single time and have been for years. Their parents are sometimes at home and simply shrug their shoulders at you and say "What can I do, I ask him to do his work and he doesn't". Parent are not a vital part, they are the most important part. If parents truly put an importance on education in every household then my job would be a breeze.

Hairless that same scenario happened to me just this week. A kid was mouthing off in my class during a lecture, he was new so I said "Maybe you don't understand but when I talk you write and listen." he smiled and told me to "____ off." The class went silent, I kicked him out on a referral. The principal suspended him for the day. His mother came down bringing all holy war on my site demanding that the kid be let back in because he was just expressing himself. My principal told them both we didn't have room or time for kids who express themselves like that and whatever he said to them during their conversation the kid had to come back to me and apologize in front of my next class in order to be even allowed back in to class. He still went home for the day.