Future of DC Films (DCEU)

[Alatar]

Actually a China release date hasn’t been set, my bad.

 

[Hoody999]

Actually a China release date hasn’t been set, my bad.

To me it seems a bit like a China friendly type movie. i.e visual effect and action. So perhaps it will do OK there.

But agreed no saviour which is fine. Don't want Emmerich and Co to think they were right in the way they were making movies.....

 

[Alatar]

To me it seems a bit like a China type movie. i.e visual effect and action. So perhaps it will do OK there.

But agreed no saviour which is fine. Don't want Emmerich and Co to think they were right in the way they were making movies.....

Assuming it does release in China… although it feels a bit odd to me that we haven’t gotten confirmation of that so late in the game now… But anyway I think whatever the numbers there are should at least get it to break even. But regardless it doesn’t look like this movie is going to make a lot of money.

It does seem like BA’s popcorn action vibe would play well in China, yeah.

 

[Hoody999]

I see Cavill is telling everyone he wants a hopefull, friendly Superman. That's all well and good, it just doesn't often make for a good story.

I swear he has a re-do of Reeves Superman in his head. I can just see another WW84 type film.

I really hope they have some good writers and some sense to it. With Brainiac or whoever.

 

[snoop101]

I see Cavill is telling everyone he wants a hopefull, friendly Superman. That's all well and good, it just doesn't often make for a good story.

I swear he has a re-do of Reeves Superman in his head. I can just see another WW84 type film.

I really hope they have some good writers and some sense to it. With Brainiac or whoever.

He’s stated before that he wants a more hopeful albeit still bad ass version of Superman. So hopefully we get the best of both. If they decide to go full blown Reeve then we’ll have a huge dumpster fire on our hands.

 

[Hoody999]

Looks like Grace Randolf will be struggling for any "scoops" going forward with Gunn in charge.

 

[Hoody999]

He’s stated before that he wants a more hopeful albeit still bad ass version of Superman. So hopefully we get the best of both. If they decide to go full blown Reeve then we’ll have a huge dumpster fire on our hands.

Yep I just hope they have a good writer and it's intelligent modern story telling.

 

[ironwez20]

Looks like Grace Randolf will be struggling for any "scoops" going forward with Gunn in charge.

Idk how that’s gonna happen. She better find a job quick. We gotta eat and she’s the breadwinner of the family

 

[Hoody999]

Idk how that’s gonna happen. She better find a job quick. We gotta eat and she’s the breadwinner of the family

I really do pity you Wez. Do you constantly wear earplugs to keep her "screetchy" voice out ?

 

[jye4ever]

I really do pity you Wez. Do you constantly wear earplugs to keep her "screetchy" voice out ?

It’s like nails on a chalkboard lol

 

[ironwez20]

I really do pity you Wez. Do you constantly wear earplugs to keep her "screetchy" voice out ?

With an ass like hers I just cancel out the noise

 

[Alatar]

I see Cavill is telling everyone he wants a hopefull, friendly Superman. That's all well and good, it just doesn't often make for a good story.

I swear he has a re-do of Reeves Superman in his head. I can just see another WW84 type film.

I really hope they have some good writers and some sense to it. With Brainiac or whoever.

I actually think we need the Big Blue Boyscout for at least a couple of films to set the stage for Darkseid mind-controlled evil Superman in JL2.

 

[RavenAsh]

He’s stated before that he wants a more hopeful albeit still bad ass version of Superman. So hopefully we get the best of both. If they decide to go full blown Reeve then we’ll have a huge dumpster fire on our hands.

The thing is, as a studio they should not even entertain doing a full blown Reeves style movie after Superman Returns- which is mind-numbingly boring aside from the plane scene. It's literally the Reeves Superman in the 00s and that didn't work. They cannot look at that and think that is the direction to go in. More hopeful? Sure, that's where the character was heading anyway. It just needs to be a balance. I thought MOS was a pretty reasonable balance, before a grim BvS and a more hopeful JL. From there, go be hopeful, but don't lose some of the grounded aspects that made Cavill's Superman such a revelation for me and many others. Don't lose the heart in forcing 'hopefulness'.

Also, please don't lose Amy Adams as Lois Lane. She's fantastic.

 

[Prime Clone]

I thought MOS was a pretty reasonable balance, before a grim BvS and a more hopeful JL.

Yes, Snyder had a redemption arc planned but modern audiences have attention spans the length of a TikTok video - and purists don't want their heroes deconstructed.

 

[Hoody999]

Yes, Snyder had a redemption arc planned but modern audiences have attention spans the length of a TikTok video - and purists don't want their heroes deconstructed.

Very well said. That pretty much explains everything in one concise sentence !!!

I still put all the blame on Emmerich and the old WB execs.

1). They didn't stay the course and believe in their plans
2). They didn't communicate the plan/slate, so people at least had an idea there was more to come. (ala Marvel - Endgame)
3). They thought they could get billion $ returns after 1-2 movies without earning it.

 

[Chris]

Or maybe the majority of audiences don't want to wait five films to get to a more traditional Superman.

The Dark Knight trilogy didn't wait until the end of Rises for Bruce to be the Batman people know and love. The MCU didn't make audiences wait until Endgame to present traditional versions of the Avengers. A trilogy or multi-film saga is not a given.

And, to be fair, the end of Man of Steel actually left the character in a pretty good place. Yes there are parts of the film that are divisive, but you could have easily built a sequel with a more traditional take on the character on that foundation.

But instead BvS doubled down on the things that had divided people and then killed him (this links back to the recent discussion on why some people feel his death was rushed).

I'm not wanting to get into was this right or wrong, we all have our own preferences and nobody is changing their mind at this point. But just from a franchise standpoint, you have a first film that you know was divisive, you want the sequel to essentially be the launch of your shared universe with plans for multiple sequels (JL1-2/3) and spin offs (solos). This is the one you need to be a big success. Everyone involved should have known the movie they were making was not the "safe" choice. And that's fine, but if we're looking back at when WB could/should have reigned Snyder in/changed course, this was arguably the time to do it.

Back to Superman, he is more hopeful on his return (either version). He has limited screen time but JL again leaves the character in a place where (suit colour aside in Synder's version) you could just pick up ball and run with a more traditional take on the character.

Plans from there get a little murky in terms of what would or wouldn't have made the cut from the outlines that were shared, but in broad strokes Snyder's plan was for Superman to then fall to Darkseid in the next movie, leading to the Knightmare. That would be twice getting him to the point where he's ready to be classic Superman before going dark in the sequel instead (this time being actual evil dark not just the tone/mood).

And this Superman wouldn't overcome the darkness and break Darkseid's control in a heroic moment where he helps the League reverse time to undo the damage he has caused. Instead he would nearly succeed in slaughtering the remaining League trying to stop them from doing that. There was no character moment where he would overcome or beat this darkness, just a do over where Lois is saved. If we thought the backlash to/fallout from BvS was bad, I honestly think the reaction to this would have been far worse. Yes, he would finally be the classic Superman and lead the League against Darkseid in the next film, but if a big percentage of your audience hates JL2 then it's a much harder task getting them to show up for JL3.

It's very easy to see why, in the wake of BvS, WB said we no longer want to go down this road. Audiences had said no to Snyder's darker take on Superman in BvS, so WB quite fairly said "let's not do the story where he gets mind controlled and kills everyone". There are a few good elements in those pitches, but a lot of it was a mess, especially Superman's "arc" as he doesn't really progress, he just gets back to where he was at the end of Man of Steel (or JL1) but now with a kid. His "fall" and "redemption" mean nothing because he ultimately never falls so there's no need for redemption.

In terms of a modern Superman, Superman & Lois has shown it's possible to find a good balance for the character in live action. It doesn't have to be Donner or Snyder. Hopefully they can do that with Cavill. Keep what works, tweak the rest and just move forward like they should have done after 2017.

 

[ironwez20]

I don’t want a super happy Superman but I also don’t want a a dark take on him either . He’s not Batman and I feel like they kept trying to make him that way. The dc universe isn’t some dark world where it rains all the time and something bad happens each day. That is just gotham. DC is campier than marvel. The heroes in DC are fun and colorful and creative. I’m fine with with that. Yes DC can be very dark but it doesn’t need to be depressing dark.

Superman is the greatest hero of all time. People want to see him be great. I’ve had enough of evil superman . It’s grown tired.

 

[Hoody999]

Or maybe the majority of audiences don't want to wait five films to get to a more traditional Superman.

The Dark Knight trilogy didn't wait until the end of Rises for Bruce to be the Batman people know and love. The MCU didn't make audiences wait until Endgame to present traditional versions of the Avengers. A trilogy or multi-film saga is not a given.

And, to be fair, the end of Man of Steel actually left the character in a pretty good place. Yes there are parts of the film that are divisive, but you could have easily built a sequel with a more traditional take on the character on that foundation.

But instead BvS doubled down on the things that had divided people and then killed him (this links back to the recent discussion on why some people feel his death was rushed).

I'm not wanting to get into was this right or wrong, we all have our own preferences and nobody is changing their mind at this point. But just from a franchise standpoint, you have a first film that you know was divisive, you want the sequel to essentially be the launch of your shared universe with plans for multiple sequels (JL1-2/3) and spin offs (solos). This is the one you need to be a big success. Everyone involved should have known the movie they were making was not the "safe" choice. And that's fine, but if we're looking back at when WB could/should have reigned Snyder in/changed course, this was arguably the time to do it.

Back to Superman, he is more hopeful on his return (either version). He has limited screen time but JL again leaves the character in a place where (suit colour aside in Synder's version) you could just pick up ball and run with a more traditional take on the character.

Plans from there get a little murky in terms of what would or wouldn't have made the cut from the outlines that were shared, but in broad strokes Snyder's plan was for Superman to then fall to Darkseid in the next movie, leading to the Knightmare. That would be twice getting him to the point where he's ready to be classic Superman before going dark in the sequel instead (this time being actual evil dark not just the tone/mood).

And this Superman wouldn't overcome the darkness and break Darkseid's control in a heroic moment where he helps the League reverse time to undo the damage he has caused. Instead he would nearly succeed in slaughtering the remaining League trying to stop them from doing that. There was no character moment where he would overcome or beat this darkness, just a do over where Lois is saved. If we thought the backlash to/fallout from BvS was bad, I honestly think the reaction to this would have been far worse. Yes, he would finally be the classic Superman and lead the League against Darkseid in the next film, but if a big percentage of your audience hates JL2 then it's a much harder task getting them to show up for JL3.

It's very easy to see why, in the wake of BvS, WB said we no longer want to go down this road. Audiences had said no to Snyder's darker take on Superman in BvS, so WB quite fairly said "let's not do the story where he gets mind controlled and kills everyone". There are a few good elements in those pitches, but a lot of it was a mess, especially Superman's "arc" as he doesn't really progress, he just gets back to where he was at the end of Man of Steel (or JL1) but now with a kid. His "fall" and "redemption" mean nothing because he ultimately never falls so there's no need for redemption.

In terms of a modern Superman, Superman & Lois has shown it's possible to find a good balance for the character in live action. It doesn't have to be Donner or Snyder. Hopefully they can do that with Cavill. Keep what works, tweak the rest and just move forward like they should have done after 2017.

Sure fair take. IMO they should have simply done a new stand alone happy, "Reeves like" Superman straight after JL. He was clearly in a good place there being re-born, defeating Darkseid (for now) etc. Just change him into the red and blue for the stand alone film and away we go. Hell, do 2 films with him doing different stuff until Darkseid brings us back to the main JL story.

Falling to Darkseid still would have been cool for me. I love that Knightmare idea, and then it's resolved within 2 films with the League coming to his rescue essentially.

I guess add in the potential for Cavill wanting a lot of money and it was the perfect storm.

But anyway who knows what we'll get now ? Maybe it will be something like the original plan vs Darkseid, just a lot more spread out with more characters involved ??

 

[abake]

Agreed.
Chris makes a very good point about going into JL2 and Darkseid right after ZSJL not being a good idea, but, as Hoody points out, it works if instead you go to a MOS2 (and possibly a Batfleck stand-alone and WW3) and then to JL2 and 3.

 

[Alatar]

Even if Black Adam does open in China it’s on track to make $400M worldwide without China. Because of the current strength of the US dollar overseas ticket sales in China will be under a 40% take for WBD. Even if China brings in $200M it won’t break even.

Next week Wakanda Forever opens and projections for its box office are huge. It will absolutely crush BA which has had only mediocre legs with no competition. Black Adam will lose money. At least as measured by cost: ticket sales.