Future of DC Films (DCEU)

[T8OO]

Yea the snyderverse just doesn’t gel well with the GA and half of the fanbase. It was crazy to think they’d continue imo. But the actors were great aside from affleck. Hate old man Batman. Oh and get rid of leto too.

Half the fanbase, sure. GA were fine with the early DCEU. Just look at the box office.

 

[Hoody999]

So now it's being reported that Jenkins walked out because she didn't want to rework her treatment for WW3 and Gadot is still believed to be WW.

So many ego's (even the women) !! But if the script was anything like WW84 then I can totally understand the management not wanting to go ahead with it.

To give her some slack it would be a tough call to deliver something which measures up to their new "standard" whatever that is. But on the flip side she should have expected some kickback due to that reason alone, and therefore not had her "sissy-fit".

Either way I'm fine with them re-working it with a better writer.

Going by Gal's tweet she is still in, so all good with me !

 

[Hoody999]

I feel like it’s a bit disingenuous to say a movie that was among the first wave to really hit on the tail end of a global pandemic, with an extremely hard-R rating and that was a direct follow-up to a now notorious box office bomb (it made money, but, to this day, Ayer/WB’s Suicide Squad is pretty widely reviled) lost the studio money when it opened simultaneously on WB’s streaming platform and was one of HBO Max’s most streamed DC films. Not to mention both it and Peacemaker were huge critical successes (the latter of which also hitting record numbers for HBO max during its release).

I just feel like Gunn has a distinctive understanding of the nuance of the medium he’s working in that Snyder, frankly, doesn’t. Guardians has its own distinctive flavor comparative to something like TSS and it works. I feel like I’ve said it before, but take something like Starro the Conqueror. This is a character that is utterly ridiculous and campy. And that’s by design because it was created in a time when comic books were utterly ridiculous and campy. Yet, Gunn managed to create a creature that was equal parts terrifying Cronenberg body horror and imbued with genuine pathos and he did it, and this is where he won me over, while being unapologetic about the fact that this thing is an utterly ridiculous, campy, over the top giant starfish.

Like you said, mileage may vary and there have been many interpretations since, but I can’t dissociate The Fourth World and the New Gods from Kirby. I just can’t. They’re arguably the most elaborate, fascinating creations to come from the mind of a man that brought us Captain America, the Fantastic Four, the X-Men, and so many more and I would easily say they’re his most personal. It’s Jack in his most uninhibited, pure form and that’s precisely why I can’t get behind Snyder’s depiction of that world as a whole. Because it’s an operatic melodrama and a biblical epic all rolled into one…but it’s also a comic book. Not just any comic book, but an unapologetically campy, over the top comic book that sprung forth from the pages of titles like Superman’s Pal Jimmy Olsen and The Forever People.

We saw Snyder’s Fourth World and it had the melodrama and the epic mythology, but it falls apart without the self-awareness for me. Some people would prefer they play it straight. Me? I think it requires too much suspension of disbelief for me to look at a primary antagonist whose moniker is literally Darkseid without it being played with tongue planted firmly in cheek. Gunn’s sensibilities match that to a T. He can go dark, he can go light, he can embrace the fact that one of the heroes of this story is a master escape artist whose name is Scot Free and I think that’s why I’m so much more excited to see what he does with it.

I should clarify that I don’t believe everything should be campy and, again, it all comes down to the characters. Matt Reeves’ Batman is arguably the darkest thing I’ve ever seen out of DC and it’s arguably the best depiction of comic Batman I’ve seen in live-action, in my opinion, but it would also be a terrible Superman movie to channel that same tone for that character. That’s what it feels like Snyder does and part of why I’m so critical of him is that I feel like he’s fundamentally misguided. The DNA of his DCEU is, by its very nature, an apologist’s take because all of his opinions, all of his conceptions and beliefs are rooted in the works of people like Alan Moore and Frank Miller. And, again, their seminal superhero work is rooted in that same apologism. Miller’s Batman is a quasi-fascistic ideologue he used to lampoon the jingoism and excesses of 1980s Reagan-era America and Watchmen is one, giant, scathing critique of how immature and ridiculous comic books are by casting familiar archetypes as impotent middle aged ornithologists and psychotic, unwashed hobos.

It’d be like if I said “I’m a huge Elvis fan and I want to make a movie about him,” but the only thing I knew about Elvis was Andy Kaufman’s impression he did on Johnny Carson. Might make for an interesting movie, but it’s not going to be the Elvis most people remember or even necessarily want to see and that’s a losing formula when you’re talking about billions of dollars worth of IP and a general public champing at the bit for a taste of something familiar.

Don't get me wrong, I respect your obviously very well informed viewpoint, but this is exactly what I mean by comic book fans coming with too much baggage. For me Snyder has his own take on things, which also has to somehow serve all audience members, and that's as refreshing as any new comic book run imo.

As far as Gunn, I totally enjoyed GotG and Peacemaker, but for me while Gunn is good, he tends to be a one trick pony. i.e bring unknown characters together in a family type way. Which is fine, and totally works, however I'm not yet convinced he can world build and bring a major MCU type event together. For me Snyder was well on the way to doing that.

Gunn is already showing signs of his standard operating procedure. i.e bringing in the normie unknown characters like Lobo and perhaps Batmite. Like I've mentioned before how will a character like Batmite fit into a darker DC toned Endgame type event against Darkseid or whoever ??

Anyway, of course not everyone can be satisfied here. But for me it'd be a huge and expensive mistake to restart things rather than build off of what Snyder started.

 

[jye4ever]

Gunn’s TSS was crap with forced horrible humor although the monster was a cool Kaiju style monster better than WB’s own Godzilla v Kong.

I’ll take MOS/BvS/ZSJL any day over not only TSS but also GOTG1 and GOTG2!

Ughh especially GOTG2.

 

[meanstreak]

what a mess

i feel like they should just reboot the whole thing if they want everything to connect and just keep the pattinson batman and phoenix joker films as the separate ones.

 

[ironwez20]

Half the fanbase, sure. GA were fine with the early DCEU. Just look at the box office.

Nah mos and bvs and that JL movie didn’t hit with the GA. Infact I think suicide squad was the only film that the GA loved cause of Harley

 

[T8OO]

Nah mos and bvs and that JL movie didn’t hit with the GA. Infact I think suicide squad was the only film that the GA loved cause of Harley

What are you using as a metric for this?
MoS is the highest-earning solo Superman movie in over 35 years. BvS is highest earning movie with Superman ever and the 2nd highest-earning movie with a new Batman in it.
MoS outsold more than 75% of MCU movies on home video and BvS half of them. If they didn't get anywhere with the GA why did they do so well in that arena?

 

[ironwez20]

What are you using as a metric for this?
MoS is the highest-earning solo Superman movie in over 35 years. BvS is highest earning movie with Superman ever and the 2nd highest-earning movie with a new Batman in it.
MoS outsold more than 75% of MCU movies on home video and BvS half of them. If they didn't get anywhere with the GA why did they do so well in that arena?

So? Who talks about it now aside Snyder fans? Who talks about bvs? Nobody. Bvs was supposed to be a billion dollar movie. Nobody cares about those films accept hardcore snyder fans. SS is the only movie that the GA liked. Hell aquaman made more money and nobody even talk about that anymore.
The GA doesn’t care about the synder verse so of course they are going to move on

 

[JMT1979]

What are you using as a metric for this?
MoS is the highest-earning solo Superman movie in over 35 years. BvS is highest earning movie with Superman ever and the 2nd highest-earning movie with a new Batman in it.
MoS outsold more than 75% of MCU movies on home video and BvS half of them. If they didn't get anywhere with the GA why did they do so well in that arena?

I'm a fan of both MoS and BvS, but you'll find that the original Superman movie is the highest grossing film with Superman in it once adjusted for inflation.

 

[T8OO]

So? Who talks about it now aside Snyder fans? Who talks about bvs? Nobody. Bvs was supposed to be a billion dollar movie. Nobody cares about those films accept hardcore snyder fans. SS is the only movie that the GA liked. Hell aquaman made more money and nobody even talk about that anymore.
The GA doesn’t care about the synder verse so of course they are going to move on

I provided factual information that shows some instances of GA possibly liking the content. You have just said GA doesn't talk about it anymore which has nothing to do with whether they liked it or not. How do you even poll the GA other than how it sold?
I would say at least some of Aquaman's appeal was the content that came before it.

 

[T8OO]

I'm a fan of both MoS and BvS, but you'll find that the original Superman movie is the highest grossing film with Superman in it once adjusted for inflation.

Indeed, that's why I said in 35 years. At the time it had been 35 years.

 

[ironwez20]

I provided factual information that shows some instances of GA possibly liking the content. You have just said GA doesn't talk about it anymore which has nothing to do with whether they liked it or not. How do you even poll the GA other than how it sold?
I would say at least some of Aquaman's appeal was the content that came before it.

No you didn’t you just said “ people saw it so the GA likes it” people see lots of movies and that doesn’t make them popular or well liked. The ST made bank and people hate those films so again the GA didn’t like the films. Hate to tell you. And I don’t blame em. They weren’t for them

 

[batfan08]

Don't get me wrong, I respect your obviously very well informed viewpoint, but this is exactly what I mean by comic book fans coming with too much baggage. For me Snyder has his own take on things, which also has to somehow serve all audience members, and that's as refreshing as any new comic book run imo.

As far as Gunn, I totally enjoyed GotG and Peacemaker, but for me while Gunn is good, he tends to be a one trick pony. i.e bring unknown characters together in a family type way. Which is fine, and totally works, however I'm not yet convinced he can world build and bring a major MCU type event together. For me Snyder was well on the way to doing that.

Gunn is already showing signs of his standard operating procedure. i.e bringing in the normie unknown characters like Lobo and perhaps Batmite. Like I've mentioned before how will a character like Batmite fit into a darker DC toned Endgame type event against Darkseid or whoever ??

Anyway, of course not everyone can be satisfied here. But for me it'd be a huge and expensive mistake to restart things rather than build off of what Snyder started.

Again, though, I feel like the distinction needs to be made between Gunn the filmmaker and Gunn the creative officer. The dude’s been a filmmaker for decades. He’s still a filmmaker and he has his own weird little niche side of things he likes to stick to that fit his sensibilities. That’s without question. But! I feel like it’s reductive and very myopic to assume that, because he likes the fringe side of things more, the future of the DCU is going to hinge on the likes of Space Cabby, G’nort, and The Newsboy Legion.

Make no mistake, I absolutely think he’s going to leverage his position in order to make some of those weird little things he’s passionate about, but as a creative, I feel it’s important to note that this dude was a producer on Endgame. He was a part of the MCU for 2/3rds of the Infinity Saga while Feige was building his magnum opus and I think, for me, that’s why I’m optimistic. I love the weird stuff and the deep cuts and how I could see hallmarks of Ostrander’s Suicide Squad and even just using Starro in his movie, but it’s less an attachment to those elements in particular and more so the fact that it takes a clear reverence for the medium and an affinity for comics to grab from those places for your movie.

He loves comic books, he’s got less of the auteur sensibilities Snyder has because he, largely, built his career working in the MCU and that collaborative environment, and I think that’s going to make him a far better creative than the old guard. He’s hands on, but not too much. Because, as much as I love Gunn, I don’t want Superman making dick jokes and I don’t think he wants that, either.

 

[T8OO]

No you didn’t you just said “ people saw it so the GA likes it” people see lots of movies and that doesn’t make them popular or well liked. The ST made bank and people hate those films so again the GA didn’t like the films. Hate to tell you. And I don’t blame em. They weren’t for them

That's not what I said. I pointed out, again with facts, that they sold well. In theatres and at home, especially at home. Do you think people hate it so they buy it? What have you brought to the table, other than what you think? I've no idea what ST means.

 

[T8OO]

Again, though, I feel like the distinction needs to be made between Gunn the filmmaker and Gunn the creative officer. The dude’s been a filmmaker for decades. He’s still a filmmaker and he has his own weird little niche side of things he likes to stick to that fit his sensibilities. That’s without question. But! I feel like it’s reductive and very myopic to assume that, because he likes the fringe side of things more, the future of the DCU is going to hinge on the likes of Space Cabby, G’nort, and The Newsboy Legion.

Make no mistake, I absolutely think he’s going to leverage his position in order to make some of those weird little things he’s passionate about, but as a creative, I feel it’s important to note that this dude was a producer on Endgame. He was a part of the MCU for 2/3rds of the Infinity Saga while Feige was building his magnum opus and I think, for me, that’s why I’m optimistic. I love the weird stuff and the deep cuts and how I could see hallmarks of Ostrander’s Suicide Squad and even just using Starro in his movie, but it’s less an attachment to those elements in particular and more so the fact that it takes a clear reverence for the medium and an affinity for comics to grab from those places for your movie.

He loves comic books, he’s got less of the auteur sensibilities Snyder has because he, largely, built his career working in the MCU and that collaborative environment, and I think that’s going to make him a far better creative than the old guard. He’s hands on, but not too much. Because, as much as I love Gunn, I don’t want Superman making dick jokes and I don’t think he wants that, either.

He was an executive producer on Infinity War and Endgame probably because they used his version of GOTG. Just like Snyder was exec producer on WW84. It generally means little input. For me, I thought Endgame was rather poor compared to Infinity War.

 

[ironwez20]

That's not what I said. I pointed out, again with facts, that they sold well. In theatres and at home, especially at home. Do you think people hate it so they buy it? What have you brought to the table, other than what you think? I've no idea what ST means.

You didn’t point out any facts. Again they didn’t sell well in theatres and what sold well at home? You really haven’t brought anything to the table yourself other than clear bias. They were divisive movies for a reason. Each dc film after set in the same world didn’t do nearly as good except aquaman and maybe WW but those weren’t done by Snyder. Bvs was supposed to make bank but it had like a huge drop off in its second week. Civil war destroyed that movie. Hell gotg destroyed that film. Again numbers don’t mean a thing in this case

The new Star Wars is the ST. They made a billion and people hate those films. I don’t know why but some people for whatever reason watch it without liking it.

 

[snoop101]

I love Man of Steel. I really havent met anyone outside of the internet who dislikes it. I like BvS too but I can understand how that might not be for everyone. But how anyone could say that they dislike ZS Justice League blows my mind. I don’t see how someone who grew up reading DC comics and growing up with these characters can watch that and not enjoy it. What more could you even want from a JL film? I really hope James Gunn can right this sinking ship, because ever since Snyder left I haven’t been impressed at all. Shazam was okay at best, but ww84, birds of prey, and TSS are all hot garbage. The best I could hope for at this point is that Gunn keeps Cavill around for a while.

 

[JMT1979]

That's not what I said. I pointed out, again with facts, that they sold well. In theatres and at home, especially at home. Do you think people hate it so they buy it? What have you brought to the table, other than what you think? I've no idea what ST means.

ST = Sequel Trilogy of Star Wars I.e. episodes 7-9

 

[T8OO]

You didn’t point out any facts. Again they didn’t sell well in theatres and what sold well at home? You really haven’t brought anything to the table yourself other than clear bias. They were divisive movies for a reason. Each dc film after set in the same world didn’t do nearly as good except aquaman and maybe WW but those weren’t done by Snyder. Bvs was supposed to make bank but it had like a huge drop off in its second week. Civil war destroyed that movie. Hell gotg destroyed that film. Again numbers don’t mean a thing in this case

The new Star Wars is the ST. They made a billion and people hate those films. I don’t know why but some people for whatever reason watch it without liking it.

These:
MoS is the highest-earning solo Superman movie in over 35 years. BvS is highest earning movie with Superman ever and the 2nd highest-earning movie with a new Batman in it.
MoS outsold more than 75% of MCU movies on home video and BvS half of them.
These are facts

I'm not denying bias here. We both obviously have bias, that's why I provided that information. It gives a basis to start from rather than just my opinion.
Yes, they were divisive, but I would say they were divisive among fans. In my opinion of course. I don't think MoS and BvS caused disagreement or hostility between GA.

Every move in the DCEU bar Justice League did good numbers.
Yes, the 13th movie, the 3rd one starring multiple Avengers did better than a 2nd movie, 1st starring two characters. That makes total sense, especially in 2016. GOTG made less.

Numbers mean a lot in this context. More than what you or I think.

I don't think the GA hate the sequel trilogy. I don't think GA cares once it been and gone.

 

[ironwez20]

I love Man of Steel. I really havent met anyone outside of the internet who dislikes it. I like BvS too but I can understand how that might not be for everyone. But how anyone could say that they dislike ZS Justice League blows my mind. I don’t see how someone who grew up reading DC comics and growing up with these characters can watch that and not enjoy it. What more could you even want from a JL film? I really hope James Gunn can right this sinking ship, because ever since Snyder left I haven’t been impressed at all. Shazam was okay at best, but ww84, birds of prey, and TSS are all hot garbage. The best I could hope for at this point is that Gunn keeps Cavill around for a while.

I don’t dislike jl just aspects of it I find not to my liking.

These:
MoS is the highest-earning solo Superman movie in over 35 years. BvS is highest earning movie with Superman ever and the 2nd highest-earning movie with a new Batman in it.
MoS outsold more than 75% of MCU movies on home video and BvS half of them.
These are facts

I'm not denying bias here. We both obviously have bias, that's why I provided that information. It gives a basis to start from rather than just my opinion.
Yes, they were divisive, but I would say they were divisive among fans. In my opinion of course. I don't think MoS and BvS caused disagreement or hostility between GA.

Every move in the DCEU bar Justice League did good numbers.
Yes, the 13th movie, the 3rd one starring multiple Avengers did better than a 2nd movie, 1st starring two characters. That makes total sense, especially in 2016. GOTG made less.

Numbers mean a lot in this context. More than what you or I think.

I don't think the GA hate the sequel trilogy. I don't think GA cares once it been and gone.

who cares if it’s the highest grossing movie with Superman in it? I mean of course it would be. These aren’t facts that the GA loves the movies. They don’t care about them plain and simple. And a movie about Batman fighting Superman should have curb stomped a bunch of b list marvel characters but it didn’t . That movie was decades in the making but fell flat. Well maybe you’re right maybe it’s like the ST where the GA just doesn’t care about these films. They were just there.

I honestly think suicide squad is the only film in the Snyder universe that made a huge impact. That was popular with everyone