Future of DC Films (DCEU)

[Hoody999]

These:
MoS is the highest-earning solo Superman movie in over 35 years. BvS is highest earning movie with Superman ever and the 2nd highest-earning movie with a new Batman in it.
MoS outsold more than 75% of MCU movies on home video and BvS half of them.
These are facts

I'm not denying bias here. We both obviously have bias, that's why I provided that information. It gives a basis to start from rather than just my opinion.
Yes, they were divisive, but I would say they were divisive among fans. In my opinion of course. I don't think MoS and BvS caused disagreement or hostility between GA.

Every move in the DCEU bar Justice League did good numbers.
Yes, the 13th movie, the 3rd one starring multiple Avengers did better than a 2nd movie, 1st starring two characters. That makes total sense, especially in 2016. GOTG made less.

Numbers mean a lot in this context. More than what you or I think.

I don't think the GA hate the sequel trilogy. I don't think GA cares once it been and gone.

You're being trolled here T800. This reads like a debate between an adult and a child.

 

[Hoody999]

Again, though, I feel like the distinction needs to be made between Gunn the filmmaker and Gunn the creative officer. The dude’s been a filmmaker for decades. He’s still a filmmaker and he has his own weird little niche side of things he likes to stick to that fit his sensibilities. That’s without question. But! I feel like it’s reductive and very myopic to assume that, because he likes the fringe side of things more, the future of the DCU is going to hinge on the likes of Space Cabby, G’nort, and The Newsboy Legion.

Make no mistake, I absolutely think he’s going to leverage his position in order to make some of those weird little things he’s passionate about, but as a creative, I feel it’s important to note that this dude was a producer on Endgame. He was a part of the MCU for 2/3rds of the Infinity Saga while Feige was building his magnum opus and I think, for me, that’s why I’m optimistic. I love the weird stuff and the deep cuts and how I could see hallmarks of Ostrander’s Suicide Squad and even just using Starro in his movie, but it’s less an attachment to those elements in particular and more so the fact that it takes a clear reverence for the medium and an affinity for comics to grab from those places for your movie.

He loves comic books, he’s got less of the auteur sensibilities Snyder has because he, largely, built his career working in the MCU and that collaborative environment, and I think that’s going to make him a far better creative than the old guard. He’s hands on, but not too much. Because, as much as I love Gunn, I don’t want Superman making dick jokes and I don’t think he wants that, either.

For sure. I really hope Gunn did learn from Feige what it takes to build a universe. Guaranteed something that Zaslav was wanting in the person he chose.

Just I'm not seeing signs of that, but OK I'm prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt. It's only early days. It's just the signs we have seen are more fringe characters. But OK, we need to see a movie slate and some more details.

What I'm also afraid of is that it could also come down to is his ego (just like Emmerich and Hamada) i.e Gunn could want to start with a clean slate and make "his" DC world and attempt to be the "hero" that saved DC. Rather than avoid the risk of that not working and build on the world and characters that exist already.

But then again according to IronWez "everyone" only liked Suicide Squad, so perhaps it would be advisable for Gunn to just build on that "excellent" movie. I mean the editing in that was sublime !!!

 

[T8OO]

You're being trolled here T800. This reads like a debate between an adult and a child.

It does feel like I'm having a conversation with my kids

 

[csutkakoma]

I love Man of Steel. I really havent met anyone outside of the internet who dislikes it. I like BvS too but I can understand how that might not be for everyone. But how anyone could say that they dislike ZS Justice League blows my mind. I don’t see how someone who grew up reading DC comics and growing up with these characters can watch that and not enjoy it. What more could you even want from a JL film? I really hope James Gunn can right this sinking ship, because ever since Snyder left I haven’t been impressed at all. Shazam was okay at best, but ww84, birds of prey, and TSS are all hot garbage. The best I could hope for at this point is that Gunn keeps Cavill around for a while.

Well I am a comicbook nerd and I grew up on the Timmverse and his JL is may favorite. All around fantastic. To me ZSJL while has some good parts overall it is a bloated mess with way too much CGI and slow motion with an iffy weirdly executed story. It is kind of all over the place not to mention killing off Superman (unearned and had zero emotional impat) that soon in BvS was one of the stupidest idea and a huge wasted potential on many levels. But hopefully they will reboot this whole mess.

 

[T8OO]

Well I am a comicbook nerd and I grew up on the Timmverse and his JL is may favorite. All around fantastic. To me ZSJL while has some good parts overall it is a bloated mess with way too much CGI and slow motion with an iffy weirdly executed story. It is kind of all over the place not to mention killing off Superman (unearned and had zero emotional impat) that soon in BvS was one of the stupidest idea and a huge wasted potential on many levels. But hopefully they will reboot this whole mess.

Each to their own. I think saying it's unearned is ridiculous.

 

[csutkakoma]

Each to their own. I think saying it's unearned is ridiculous.

Is it? He had one movie. We bearly knew the character. Than Zack kills him in the second basically with zero build up when the character is not even established properly and you are not even attached to him. The fight with Doomsday is bad anyway. There is basically no build up towards it. Typical third act like in Black Adam. It just happens. It supposed to be a big thing (his death) yet it has no impact on the viewer on emotional or any level except wtf just happened. This is how I see it. I suggest watch The Death of Superman animation. IMO this is how you do this. There is an emotional impact before and throughout and after the fight and also there is an actual build up towards the Superman and Doomsday clash (who became an established threat in the movie). In BvS he is a cave troll who is just there for the big CGI fight.

 

[Hoody999]

Is it? He had one movie. We bearly knew the character. Than Zack kills him in the second basically with zero build up when the character is not even established properly and you are not even attached to him. The fight with Doomsday is bad anyway. There is basically no build up towards it. Typical third act like in Black Adam. It just happens. It supposed to be a big thing (his death) yet it has no impact on the viewer on emotional or any level except wtf just happened. This is how I see it. I suggest watch The Death of Superman animation. IMO this is how you do this. There is an emotional impact before and throughout and after the fight and also there is an actual build up towards the Superman and Doomsday clash (who became and established threat in the movie). In BvS he is a cave troll who is just there for the big CGI fight.

Sounds like you didn't watch MoS and BvS too carefully. How much more introduction do you need for Superman ? 2 movies seems pretty decent to me. Besides it's not like Zack had the luxury of time, it's not a TV series.

If you are planning a large story arc over say 4-5 movies then you need the low point to happen in the middle, then the further downfall to Darkseid and then the win at the end. Sounds pretty logical to me if that's the larger plan, which it was.

 

[csutkakoma]

Sounds like you didn't watch MoS and BvS too carefully. How much more introduction do you need for Superman ? 2 movies seems pretty decent to me. Besides it's not like Zack had the luxury of time, it's not a TV series.

If you are planning a large story arc over say 4-5 movies then you need the low point to happen in the middle, then the further downfall to Darkseid and then the win at the end. Sounds pretty logical to me if that's the larger plan, which it was.

Sure I didn't yeah. If you say so.

We just have to agree to disagree than. I have a totally different viewpoint on the matter. To me it was an empty and emotionless rushed attempt. If the movie cannot make you feel because of somebody's death than it did a pretty bad job I would say.

 

[JMT1979]

Is it? He had one movie. We bearly knew the character. Than Zack kills him in the second basically with zero build up when the character is not even established properly and you are not even attached to him. The fight with Doomsday is bad anyway. There is basically no build up towards it. Typical third act like in Black Adam. It just happens. It supposed to be a big thing (his death) yet it has no impact on the viewer on emotional or any level except wtf just happened. This is how I see it. I suggest watch The Death of Superman animation. IMO this is how you do this. There is an emotional impact before and throughout and after the fight and also there is an actual build up towards the Superman and Doomsday clash (who became and established threat in the movie). In BvS he is a cave troll who is just there for the big CGI fight.

I'm with you here. As someone who really enjoyed both MoS and BvS (Extended Cut), I always felt that they killed Superman off too soon, and.for me it had no emotional impact for me as an audience member. Contrast this with Iron Man dying in Endgame after 11 years and nine movies with multiple story arcs, and we got some real emotional impact'

Noting what Hoody999 said, he's right about when in the arc Superman should die, but I would have aimed to have more movies, and have him die in movie four or five, then come back to take down Darkseid. Obviously Snyder was battling to even get three movies, so that possibly forced his hand.

 

[T8OO]

Yes. Gandalf died in his first movie and came back in the 2nd. Obi-Wan died in his first movie and came back in the 2nd. In this story Superman dies in the 2nd movie and came back.
Watching Superman give his life for mankind and it drives Bruce to create the league. Instead of killing him off nearer the and his story, he is killed off nearer the start. It's just as valid, just different. Even the writer of the Death of Superman found Snyders take interesting.
Doomsday being created starts in the first 3rd of the movie. BvS is my favourite movie and I adore the last 3rd of it. I

 

[csutkakoma]

Noting what Hoody999 said, he's right about when in the arc Superman should die, but I would have aimed to have more movies, and have him die in movie four or five, then come back to take down Darkseid. Obviously Snyder was battling to even get three movies, so that possibly forced his hand.

I agree here. But all in all this is the point. If you don't have time and attention towards something than it won't work. And you don't wanna put everything in a five part story arc. I can understand the studio's pressure but all in all the ending for us as viewers is the same.

Yes. Gandalf died in his first movie and came back in the 2nd. Obi-Wan died in his first movie and came back in the 2nd. In this story Superman dies in the 2nd movie and came back.
Watching Superman give his life for mankind and it drives Bruce to create the league. Instead of killing him off nearer the and his story, he is killed off nearer the start. It's just as valid, just different. Even the writer of the Death of Superman found Snyders take interesting.
Doomsday being created starts in the first 3rd of the movie. BvS is my favourite movie and I adore the last 3rd of it. I

Gandalf and Obi-Wan are different and they were unknown at the beginning with different arcs and they were established in different ways from the get go. Sup has more than 80 years of history and built differently. There are certain expectation wich are coming with certain characters (Darth Vader, Terminator, Batman, Superman etc). You cannot do anything you want with them. Same with Gandalf by the way. If somebody would make a Gandalf movie today he needs to keep certain things in mind, otherwise it probably won't work. In BvS the main problem is with the writing and execution itself.

Maybe there are talented writers and directors who can make Superman's death work in the second movie...but they were not present at BvS.

 

[T8OO]

Gandalf and Obi-Wan are different and they were unknown at the beginning with different arcs and they were established in different ways from the get go. Sup has more than 80 years of history and built differently. There are certain expectation wich are coming with certain characters (Darth Vader, Terminator, Batman, Superman etc). You cannot do anything you want with them. Same with Gandalf by the way. If somebody would make a Gandalf movie today he needs to keep certain things in mind, otherwise it probably won't work. In BvS the main problem is with the writing and execution itself.

Maybe there are talented writers and directors who can make Superman's death work in the second movie...but they were not present at BvS.

To me, you are just superimposing rules on a character that has had many interpretations over the last 80 years. Gandalf and Obi-Wan haven't had more than one interpretation so of course people are much more likely to baulk at that. You are fine with that happening to their characters even in one interpretation but not Superman which has had many.

There are a lot of us whom these movies speak to us on a level that no others have.

 

[csutkakoma]

To me, you are just superimposing rules on a character that has had many interpretations over the last 80 years. Gandalf and Obi-Wan haven't had more than one interpretation so of course people are much more likely to baulk at that. You are fine with that happening to their characters even in one interpretation but not Superman which has had many.

There are a lot of us whom these movies speak to us on a level that no others have.

And that's fine and I am relly glad that you liked the movie and it's ideas the way it was presented. To me it didn't work.

 

[jye4ever]

That old regime were incompetent panicking idiots they were so focused on forcing ZS to bend to their “MCU path” will that they willfully ignored the warning signs that the MCU was in a destructive path heading towards Phase 4!

Those jerks literally panicked at a mouse, the house of mouse that is, and to make matters worse they willingly sabotaged their own studio for bonus and tax reasons and disgustingly placed the blame squarely on the shoulders of a man who tragically lost his daughter to suicide how disgusting how disrespectful how despicable a bunch of low life scum who had no business making creative decisions.

MOS/BvS/ZSJL have become more precious than ever for me and I’ll even add WW1 to that group because it’s becoming more and more evident that it was ZS that formed that movie and not PJ.

This is coming from someone who absolutely loves The Batman but when you interrupt a man’s vision, a man’s journey, a man’s creative purpose for self serving reasons and then 100% blame him for everything when it doesn’t perform like they had hoped, and they didn’t perform horribly I might add, and then you expect me to jump up and down like a trained chimp when you announce a director with average credentials (in my eyes) to carry on the DC legacy well forgive me while I cross my arms instead and hope that the new regime brings ZS back to complete his journey.

My favorite Thor-GOTG moment remains the interaction between Thor and Starlord at the end of EG when Thor does his “I know, I know” line it is pure comic gold I still laugh at that it never gets old.

Now I’m curious who wrote and directed that was it the Russo’s or Gunn?

Gunn’s DC humor has been even worse than the quips in the MCU.

 

[Hoody999]

That old regime are incompetent panicking idiots they were so focused on forcing ZS to bend to their “MCU path” will that they willfully ignored the warning signs that the MCU was in a destructive path heading towards Phase 4!

Those jerks literally panicked at a mouse, the house of mouse that is, and to make matters worse they willingly sabotaged their own studio for bonus and tax reasons and disgustingly placed the blame squarely on the shoulders of a man who tragically lost his daughter to suicide how disgusting how disrespectful how despicable a bunch of low life scum who had no business making creative decisions.

MOS/BvS/ZSJL have become more precious than ever for me and I’ll even add WW1 to that group because it’s becoming more and more evident that it was ZS that formed that movie and not PJ.

This is coming from someone who absolutely loves The Batman but when you interrupt a man’s vision, a man’s journey, a man’s creative purpose for self serving reasons and then 100% blame him for everything when it doesn’t perform like they had hoped, and they didn’t perform horribly I might add, and then you expect me to jump up and down like a trained chimp when you announce a director with average credentials (in my eyes) to carry on the DC legacy well forgive me while I cross my arms instead and hope that the new regime brings ZS back to complete his journey.

My favorite Thor-GOTG moment remains the interaction between Thor and Starlord at the end of EG when Thor does his “I know, I know” line it is pure comic gold I still laugh at that it never gets old.

Now I’m curious who wrote and directed that was it the Russo’s or Gunn?

Gunn’s DC humor has been even worse than the quips in the MCU.

This.......

It's exactly what drove me to support the Restore the Snyderverse movement in the first place.

I was just a casual comic book movie going fan who loves a decent story, hidden meanings within a movie, epic world building and stunning visuals/cinematography. It's the same reason I love Villeneuve's movies.

But with the Snyderverse it's so much more than just the movie, it's what fans, what we customers want over what movie execs want to get their bonus.

As far as Patty Jenkins and WW1. I'm totally with you Jye. That pic Snyder had in his office with WW and the severed head in her hand is proof imo, that's the bad ass we saw in the no-mans land scene. No way in hell Jenkins would have come up with stuff like that !

 

[csutkakoma]

Personally I don't like Gunn as a director and I didn't like his Suicide Squad movie at all. We will see how it goes. Right now I am only interested in The Batman and The Joker. The rest is a huge question mark.

 

[The Buffinator]

That old regime are incompetent panicking idiots they were so focused on forcing ZS to bend to their “MCU path” will that they willfully ignored the warning signs that the MCU was in a destructive path heading towards Phase 4!

Those jerks literally panicked at a mouse, the house of mouse that is, and to make matters worse they willingly sabotaged their own studio for bonus and tax reasons and disgustingly placed the blame squarely on the shoulders of a man who tragically lost his daughter to suicide how disgusting how disrespectful how despicable a bunch of low life scum who had no business making creative decisions.

MOS/BvS/ZSJL have become more precious than ever for me and I’ll even add WW1 to that group because it’s becoming more and more evident that it was ZS that formed that movie and not PJ.

This is coming from someone who absolutely loves The Batman but when you interrupt a man’s vision, a man’s journey, a man’s creative purpose for self serving reasons and then 100% blame him for everything when it doesn’t perform like they had hoped, and they didn’t perform horribly I might add, and then you expect me to jump up and down like a trained chimp when you announce a director with average credentials (in my eyes) to carry on the DC legacy well forgive me while I cross my arms instead and hope that the new regime brings ZS back to complete his journey.

My favorite Thor-GOTG moment remains the interaction between Thor and Starlord at the end of EG when Thor does his “I know, I know” line it is pure comic gold I still laugh at that it never gets old.

Now I’m curious who wrote and directed that was it the Russo’s or Gunn?

Gunn’s DC humor has been even worse than the quips in the MCU.

There seems to be a lot of revisionist history going on here. I don't know how much Snyder was involved in the ultimate decision to take the rushed approach to launching the DCEU (but his initial enthusiasm when promoting it tells me it was probably A LOT), but even before it was made MANY people questioned the decision to try to play catch-up with BvS-DoJ rather than build the way Feige did it with the MCU (with individual films and/or mutiple appearances for all the major characters prior to their team-up). Despite my concerns going in I was still excited to see the movie, only to find a grim, disjointed mess that at times confused the GA (a hitherto unknown Barry's speed-force warning to Bruce that "Lois is the key") or had them laughing at the wrong time ("Save Martha"). And yes, the Ultimate Edition released on Blu-ray was an improvement but still had the same issues and further exposed ZS's fatal flaw: While he was a very talented world builder, he failed to do so in a manner that fit what his bosses considered an acceptable template - i.e., movies that were 2 to 2-1/2 hours long, were coherent and could be shown on as many screens/day as possible. Hence BvS being released in its edited form and the eventual clusterf**k that was JL. I get where people complain about studio suits interfering with his artistic vision, but it's disingenuous to say 100% of the fault lies with them. Snyder's BvS UE + ZSJL is over 7 hours of content when he was hired to make TWO films (so probably 5-1/2 hours MAX). I challenge anyone to take what he wanted to deliver and either (a) cut it down to 5-1/2 hours with Parts 1 & 2 or (b) divide it into 3 coherent films and do so without significant changes.

BTW, GTFO with that "ignoring the warning signs" BS lol. Who among us saw any warning signs about MCU Phase 4 back then? This all went down pre-Infinity War/Endgame, so none of us even knew about Tony's and BW's deaths, Cap (Evans) quitting, Professor Hulk, etc., etc.. Everything was peachy keen for the MCU back then.

 

[jye4ever]

There seems to be a lot of revisionist history going on here. I don't know how much Snyder was involved in the ultimate decision to take the rushed approach to launching the DCEU (but his initial enthusiasm when promoting it tells me it was probably A LOT), but even before it was made MANY people questioned the decision to try to play catch-up with BvS-DoJ rather than build the way Feige did it with the MCU (with individual films and/or mutiple appearances for all the major characters prior to their team-up). Despite my concerns going in I was still excited to see the movie, only to find a grim, disjointed mess that at times confused the GA (a hitherto unknown Barry's speed-force warning to Bruce that "Martha was the key") or had them laughing at the wrong time ("Save Martha"). And yes, the Ultimate Edition released on Blu-ray was an improvement but still had the same issues and further exposed ZS's fatal flaw: While he was a very talented world builder, he failed to do so in a manner that fit what his bosses considered an acceptable template - i.e., movies that were 2 to 2-1/2 hours long, were coherent and could be shown on as many screens/day as possible. Hence BvS being released in its edited form and the eventual clusterf**k that was JL. I get where people complain about studio suits interfering with his artistic vision, but it's disingenuous to say 100% of the fault lies with them. Snyder's BvS UE + ZSJL is over 7 hours of content when he was hired to make TWO films (so probably 5-1/2 hours MAX). I challenge anyone to take what he wanted to deliver and either (a) cut it down to 5-1/2 hours with Parts 1 & 2 or (b) divide it into 3 coherent films and do so without significant changes.

BTW, GTFO with that "ignoring the warning signs" BS lol. Who among us saw any warning signs about MCU Phase 4 back then? This all went down pre-Infinity War/Endgame, so none of us even knew about Tony's and BW's deaths, Cap (Evans) quitting, Professor Hulk, etc., etc.. Everything was peachy keen for the MCU back then.

As with any great documentarian I needed to embellish certain aspects of my point of view lol

Honestly while the Phase 4 narrative is an absolutely unmitigated disaster box office wise NWH and DS2 100% saved it financially.

But yes warning signs in that notoriously cheap Disney was heading towards costly contract negotiations and that their connected universe was lacking any cohesive direction post Infinity Saga due to main characters not returning leaks were saying as much postmortem phase 2 into phase 3.

 

[snoop101]

There seems to be a lot of revisionist history going on here. I don't know how much Snyder was involved in the ultimate decision to take the rushed approach to launching the DCEU (but his initial enthusiasm when promoting it tells me it was probably A LOT), but even before it was made MANY people questioned the decision to try to play catch-up with BvS-DoJ rather than build the way Feige did it with the MCU (with individual films and/or mutiple appearances for all the major characters prior to their team-up). Despite my concerns going in I was still excited to see the movie, only to find a grim, disjointed mess that at times confused the GA (a hitherto unknown Barry's speed-force warning to Bruce that "Martha was the key") or had them laughing at the wrong time ("Save Martha"). And yes, the Ultimate Edition released on Blu-ray was an improvement but still had the same issues and further exposed ZS's fatal flaw: While he was a very talented world builder, he failed to do so in a manner that fit what his bosses considered an acceptable template - i.e., movies that were 2 to 2-1/2 hours long, were coherent and could be shown on as many screens/day as possible. Hence BvS being released in its edited form and the eventual clusterf**k that was JL. I get where people complain about studio suits interfering with his artistic vision, but it's disingenuous to say 100% of the fault lies with them. Snyder's BvS UE + ZSJL is over 7 hours of content when he was hired to make TWO films (so probably 5-1/2 hours MAX). I challenge anyone to take what he wanted to deliver and either (a) cut it down to 5-1/2 hours with Parts 1 & 2 or (b) divide it into 3 coherent films and do so without significant changes.

BTW, GTFO with that "ignoring the warning signs" BS lol. Who among us saw any warning signs about MCU Phase 4 back then? This all went down pre-Infinity War/Endgame, so none of us even knew about Tony's and BW's deaths, Cap (Evans) quitting, Professor Hulk, etc., etc.. Everything was peachy keen for the MCU back then.

Revisionist history? Yeah it’s really hard to believe that a company like WB could screw things up.

 

[The Buffinator]

As with any great documentarian I needed to embellish certain aspects of my point of view lol.

But yes warning signs in that notoriously cheap Disney was heading towards costly contract negotiations and that their connected universe was lacking any cohesive direction post Infinity Saga due to main characters not returning leaks were saying as much postmortem phase 2 into phase 3.

I think you may be confusing the MCU with the ST regarding the lack of cohesiveness lol. Regardless of the timing of those leaks I think the problem has been exacerbated by CB's death and the decision to kill off T'Challa, who no doubt would have been one of the leaders of the next Avengers team. Losing arguably your 4 most charismatic characters (IM, Cap, BW and BP) at the same time is pretty big hurdle to overcome.