jye4ever
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Another movie in desperate need of a 4K release.
GBU or Once Upon a Time in the West
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jye4ever
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At the end of the day I still prefer GBU over it.
I place West above FFOD and FAFDM though not that there is anything wrong with those 2.
I’m sorry but H8 while entertaining enough especially the Netflix extended version but QT did not make a classic like those.
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Incidentally, the town of Flagstone was said to have cost $250,000 to build. That was more than the entire budget for A Fistful of Dollars.
As for H8, I didn't like it at all. It smacked too much of QT trying to shock, especially with SLJ. In fact there aren't many modern westerns that I do like. For me the golden age was the 1960s and 1970s.
The Outlaw Josey Wales is a favourite. The original novel by Forrest Carter that the film was based upon was also a good read, as was its sequel, The Vengeance Trail of Josey Wales.
They also rationalise the almost supernatural ability of movie gunfighters, which was taken to the extreme in the Dollars trilogy. Carter gets inside Josey's mind as he takes in his surroundings, the demeanor and potential ability of his enemies, whether their guns are easily drawn or secured within flapped holsters, and he plans the order in which he'll take his enemies down!
jye4ever
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Do you like High Plains DrifterIncidentally, the town of Flagstone was said to have cost $250,000 to build. That was more than the entire budget for A Fistful of Dollars.
As for H8, I didn't like it at all. It smacked too much of QT trying to shock, especially with SLJ. In fact there aren't many modern westerns that I do like. For me the golden age was the 1960s and 1970s.
The Outlaw Josey Wales is a favourite. The original novel by Forrest Carter that the film was based upon was also a good read, as was its sequel, The Vengeance Trail of Josey Wales.
They also rationalise the almost supernatural ability of movie gunfighters, which was taken to the extreme in the Dollars trilogy. Carter gets inside Josey's mind as he takes in his surroundings, the demeanor and potential ability of his enemies, whether their guns are easily drawn or secured within flapped holsters, and he plans the order in which he'll take his enemies down!
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Yes. I pretty much like all of Clint's westerns. Two Mules For Sister Sara, Pale Rider, Hang 'Em High, Joe Kidd. Not so much The Beguiled or Unforgiven.
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I've rewatched most of The Good, The Bad and the Ugly.
My assessment is what I thought it was going to be: I prefer Once Upon a Time in the West.
What lets GBU down is that it's a bit of a sprawling mess, full of anachronisms - the historical nature of the Civil War in 1862, and all the firearms that are too modern for the period.
I've had a long interest in historical firearms, so errors in films stand out and take me out of the film itself.
I don't think Sergio Leone wanted to bother with the hassle of having characters load percussion cap and ball revolvers, so he gave Blondie and Tuco cartridge versions, and put metal cartridges in the belts of Blondie and Angel Eyes (even though Angel Eyes' Remington 1858 New Army is still clearly a cap and ball revolver).
The revolvers aren't just 'cartridge conversions' either, since they have completely new, factory engineered single piece cylinders. Colt was actually prevented from doing this because Smith & Wesson held the patent for chambers bored completely through until 1869. Colt began selling conversions in 1871.
It gets complicated because sometimes Blondie are Tuco are holding percussion versions as well, usually when they're not required to shoot, or for safety when required to point the gun at another actor.
Hence why I view GBU as more fantastical. It's an Italian homage to the myth of the Hollywood western, as opposed to Once Upon a Time in the West which is more of a statement about the history of America itself, told via homage to Hollywood westerns.
For a while I was avidly collecting guns. I amassed a mixture of deactivated, live black powder, blank, replica and airgun, depending what turned up that looked right.
This is a photo taken some years ago:
(There's another eight that wouldn't fit on the wall).
The firearms in GBU were supplied by Uberti. My only Uberti is the blank firing Colt 1851 Navy (the model used routinely by Blondie and Tuco, and more briefly by Angel Eyes), which is the second one down on the far left. The one above is a live black powder version by Pietta.
Third down from the top in the next row is a blank firing Remington 1858 New Model Army by Pietta. This one is actually made to resemble a six-shot factory cartridge conversion. (An updated example of Angel Eyes' main sidearm).
Remington beat Colt to the punch with metallic cartridge conversions, since they paid a royalty fee to Smith & Wesson in 1868 in order to produce five-shot bored-through cylinders (chambered for .46 rimfire). They later offered six-shot versions for .44 centrefire.
My assessment is what I thought it was going to be: I prefer Once Upon a Time in the West.
What lets GBU down is that it's a bit of a sprawling mess, full of anachronisms - the historical nature of the Civil War in 1862, and all the firearms that are too modern for the period.
I've had a long interest in historical firearms, so errors in films stand out and take me out of the film itself.
I don't think Sergio Leone wanted to bother with the hassle of having characters load percussion cap and ball revolvers, so he gave Blondie and Tuco cartridge versions, and put metal cartridges in the belts of Blondie and Angel Eyes (even though Angel Eyes' Remington 1858 New Army is still clearly a cap and ball revolver).
The revolvers aren't just 'cartridge conversions' either, since they have completely new, factory engineered single piece cylinders. Colt was actually prevented from doing this because Smith & Wesson held the patent for chambers bored completely through until 1869. Colt began selling conversions in 1871.
It gets complicated because sometimes Blondie are Tuco are holding percussion versions as well, usually when they're not required to shoot, or for safety when required to point the gun at another actor.
Hence why I view GBU as more fantastical. It's an Italian homage to the myth of the Hollywood western, as opposed to Once Upon a Time in the West which is more of a statement about the history of America itself, told via homage to Hollywood westerns.
For a while I was avidly collecting guns. I amassed a mixture of deactivated, live black powder, blank, replica and airgun, depending what turned up that looked right.
This is a photo taken some years ago:
(There's another eight that wouldn't fit on the wall).
The firearms in GBU were supplied by Uberti. My only Uberti is the blank firing Colt 1851 Navy (the model used routinely by Blondie and Tuco, and more briefly by Angel Eyes), which is the second one down on the far left. The one above is a live black powder version by Pietta.
Third down from the top in the next row is a blank firing Remington 1858 New Model Army by Pietta. This one is actually made to resemble a six-shot factory cartridge conversion. (An updated example of Angel Eyes' main sidearm).
Remington beat Colt to the punch with metallic cartridge conversions, since they paid a royalty fee to Smith & Wesson in 1868 in order to produce five-shot bored-through cylinders (chambered for .46 rimfire). They later offered six-shot versions for .44 centrefire.
jye4ever
Broke and happy
I have nothing but respect for your historical knowledge on the subject of weaponry……I've rewatched most of The Good, The Bad and the Ugly.
My assessment is what I thought it was going to be: I prefer Once Upon a Time in the West.
What lets GBU down is that it's a bit of a sprawling mess, full of anachronisms - the historical nature of the Civil War in 1862, and all the firearms that are too modern for the period.
I've had a long interest in historical firearms, so errors in films stand out and take me out of the film itself.
I don't think Sergio Leone wanted to bother with the hassle of having characters load percussion cap and ball revolvers, so he gave Blondie and Tuco cartridge versions, and put metal cartridges in the belts of Blondie and Angel Eyes (even though Angel Eyes' Remington 1858 New Army is still clearly a cap and ball revolver).
The revolvers aren't just 'cartridge conversions' either, since they have completely new, factory engineered single piece cylinders. Colt was actually prevented from doing this because Smith & Wesson held the patent for chambers bored completely through until 1869. Colt began selling conversions in 1871.
It gets complicated because sometimes Blondie are Tuco are holding percussion versions as well, usually when they're not required to shoot, or for safety when required to point the gun at another actor.
Hence why I view GBU as more fantastical. It's an Italian homage to the myth of the Hollywood western, as opposed to Once Upon a Time in the West which is more of a statement about the history of America itself, told via homage to Hollywood westerns.
For a while I was avidly collecting guns. I amassed a mixture of deactivated, live black powder, blank, replica and airgun, depending what turned up that looked right.
This is a photo taken some years ago:
(There's another eight that wouldn't fit on the wall).
The firearms in GBU were supplied by Uberti. My only Uberti is the blank firing Colt 1851 Navy (the model used routinely by Blondie and Tuco, and more briefly by Angel Eyes), which is the second one down on the far left. The one above is a live black powder version by Pietta.
Third down from the top in the next row is a blank firing Remington 1858 New Model Army by Pietta. This one is actually made to resemble a six-shot factory cartridge conversion. (An updated example of Angel Eyes' main sidearm).
Remington beat Colt to the punch with metallic cartridge conversions, since they paid a royalty fee to Smith & Wesson in 1868 in order to produce five-shot bored-through cylinders (chambered for .46 rimfire). They later offered six-shot versions for .44 centrefire.
BUT……
I will never critique GBU under those set of very specific rules.
As long as they are not using weapons from 2021 I am good lol
Meaning that as long as their weapons look and behave like they belong in that century I can allow the drama to wash over me.
If the Apollo moon movie used a space shuttle it would be a fail but had they used any vertical standing rocket I would have looked the other way as long as it doesn’t say Dragon Space X on it or look like Bezos’s pecker lol
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To me, the amount of inaccuracies in the film are so great that it wouldn't surprise me if a rocket showed up too.
Cars are supposed to show up on at least three occasions in GBU, though I don't remember them. There's a car driving along a road in the background of The Searchers too. It stops to watch the cavalry crossing a river! It's a very meta experience when that happens, because you suddenly stop suspending disbelief.
That's also the same with firearms with me, or German uniforms in war movies.
The thing is that Leone knew what he was doing for the most part, but he didn't care. So he would mix and match the percussion and cartridge weapons from scene to scene, passing them off as being identical, and show them in close up as well.
He was so precise with his film making that he would sometimes spend hours, if not days, until he was happy with a shot. He would have clothes weathered so much that they looked on the point of falling apart, as if to highlight the reality that was lacking in Hollywood films, particularly from the 1930s to 1950s (think Marty McFly's BTTF III pink 1950s cowboy outfit!)
Yet, when it came to one of the biggest parts of the mythology of the west - firearms - he played fast and loose.
This close up illustrates the problem:
The metal cartridges are superfluous, and couldn't be loaded into this Remington.
The percussion caps are actually fitted here too.
IMFDB records that one of the few percussion weapons fired on set was Angel Eyes' Remington Cattleman's Carbine.
Once Upon a Time in the West likely had its anachronisms too, probably with rifles when it came to weaponry, but they weren't so glaring.
To differentiate between the two, GBU is more a cartoon, and OUATITW more a serious work. This seems how Leone approached the films. As a case in point, Clint's character was superhumanly fast with a gun in the Dollars trilogy. However, in Harmonica's first shootout, while he kills the three men waiting for him, he gets shot in the shoulder by Woody Strode's character.
I think it was Alex Cox who said that OUATITW ought to be in everyone's top ten westerns.
The way I see GBU is that it's an alternative history of the west, which is really the essence of most films anyway.
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I love both films. Clearly they are Leone's masterpieces. In terms of just enjoying a film as an escapist fantasy, I would choose GBU. In fact, I have watched it through several more times than I have Once Upon A Time. Eastwood is mesmerizing and charismatic in a way that Charles Bronson just isn't, and as strange and wonderful as Henry Fonda is, Lee Van Cleef is a better bad guy, which plays a role here.
However, the craftsmanship and care put into Once Upon A Time are of the very highest quality. That opening scene remains my favorite opening scene in film, and I doubt any other film will beat it. The score, the cinematography, the acting, and the mood all come together to make a really special film. There are a handful of other movies that I feel come together in just a perfect way like that--Blade Runner, Double Indemnity, A History of Violence, Chinatown, Fargo. Those movies immerse me in ways that others don't.
Once Upon A Time may be the best western ever made if I am ranking them based on "greatness." I think it trumps Liberty Valence, Shane, the Searchers, the Wild Bunch, etc. But again, if you asked me which one to watch when I had a few free hours on any given night, I would probably pick GBU.
Can't go wrong either way here.
However, the craftsmanship and care put into Once Upon A Time are of the very highest quality. That opening scene remains my favorite opening scene in film, and I doubt any other film will beat it. The score, the cinematography, the acting, and the mood all come together to make a really special film. There are a handful of other movies that I feel come together in just a perfect way like that--Blade Runner, Double Indemnity, A History of Violence, Chinatown, Fargo. Those movies immerse me in ways that others don't.
Once Upon A Time may be the best western ever made if I am ranking them based on "greatness." I think it trumps Liberty Valence, Shane, the Searchers, the Wild Bunch, etc. But again, if you asked me which one to watch when I had a few free hours on any given night, I would probably pick GBU.
Can't go wrong either way here.
Totally off-topic, but I was watching an episode of Columbo a couple days ago. There was an older woman in the episode who had this amazing voice. It was hypnotic and perfect somehow. I wanted to know who this was and looked her up. It was Myrna Loy. Didn't recognize her at all based on her look, but it was really cool to see her acting at that point in her life.To me, the amount of inaccuracies in the film are so great that it wouldn't surprise me if a rocket showed up too.
Cars are supposed to show up on at least three occasions in GBU, though I don't remember them. There's a car driving along a road in the background of The Searchers too. It stops to watch the cavalry crossing a river! It's a very meta experience when that happens, because you suddenly stop suspending disbelief.
That's also the same with firearms with me, or German uniforms in war movies.
The thing is that Leone knew what he was doing for the most part, but he didn't care. So he would mix and match the percussion and cartridge weapons from scene to scene, passing them off as being identical, and show them in close up as well.
He was so precise with his film making that he would sometimes spend hours, if not days, until he was happy with a shot. He would have clothes weathered so much that they looked on the point of falling apart, as if to highlight the reality that was lacking in Hollywood films, particularly from the 1930s to 1950s (think Marty McFly's BTTF III pink 1950s cowboy outfit!)
Yet, when it came to one of the biggest parts of the mythology of the west - firearms - he played fast and loose.
This close up illustrates the problem:
View attachment 539403
The metal cartridges are superfluous, and couldn't be loaded into this Remington.
The percussion caps are actually fitted here too.
IMFDB records that one of the few percussion weapons fired on set was Angel Eyes' Remington Cattleman's Carbine.
Once Upon a Time in the West likely had its anachronisms too, probably with rifles when it came to weaponry, but they weren't so glaring.
To differentiate between the two, GBU is more a cartoon, and OUATITW more a serious work. This seems how Leone approached the films. As a case in point, Clint's character was superhumanly fast with a gun in the Dollars trilogy. However, in Harmonica's first shootout, while he kills the three men waiting for him, he gets shot in the shoulder by Woody Strode's character.
I think it was Alex Cox who said that OUATITW ought to be in everyone's top ten westerns.
The way I see GBU is that it's an alternative history of the west, which is really the essence of most films anyway.
jye4ever
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Epic post is epic
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They're both very watchable, but for me it's that special quality in Once Upon a Time that takes it to another level. Even for Leone, this was a film that required him to actually travel to America to film in Monument Valley.
Clint is mesmerising throughout the whole Dollars trilogy. In Once Upon a Time Henry Fonda embodies that quality for me. He's as cold as Bronson was reserved.
GBU is my least favourite of its trilogy. It's always felt a little strange or otherworldly. It's out of place, as opposed to the overtly supernatural element of High Plains Drifter. There's a sense of unreality that's enhanced in the attempt to portray a particular historical event.
A Fistful of Dollars and For a Few Dollars More work better.
jye4ever
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I agree that it isn't as realistic as many other westerns, but that's part of Leone's charm in my eyes.
The classic dilemma of favorite vs. best.
Great thread about two of my favorites. I prefer GBU more overall, for the reasons stated - it’s just a fantastical movie filled with great characters.
The entire opening of Once Upon a Time, from the gunmen at the station to the scene at the homestead, is one of my all-time favorites.
And speaking of anachronisms and firearms, The Wild Bunch is up there (perhaps my favorite movie).
The entire opening of Once Upon a Time, from the gunmen at the station to the scene at the homestead, is one of my all-time favorites.
And speaking of anachronisms and firearms, The Wild Bunch is up there (perhaps my favorite movie).
Such a brutal movie. Hard to watch even by today's standards. Just the scene with the kids watching in joy as ants kill that scorpion is super hardcore. I can't imagine the kind of shock that movie must have created when it was released.
jye4ever
Broke and happy
jye4ever
Broke and happy
Watched GBU lastnight while wife and son were out and it truly is a marriage masterpiece of camera movement sounds and music.
**** my mind can’t comprehend how something so perfect can come out of 3 guys at a cemetery in a low budget movie.
How how does one take the simple act of running in a cemetery and turn it into something so freaking timeless and epic with no cgi or hundreds of millions of dollars.
**** my mind can’t comprehend how something so perfect can come out of 3 guys at a cemetery in a low budget movie.
How how does one take the simple act of running in a cemetery and turn it into something so freaking timeless and epic with no cgi or hundreds of millions of dollars.
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The finale is the crowning glory of the film.
Leone loves to take his time, but the timing is always perfect.
The way Eli runs, combined with the camera movement, conjures up a mass of emotions - his excitement, his disbelief that he's finally at the goal, and yet the overwhelming nature of just how many grave markers there are to search.
The moment that always gets me is when Blondie throws the spade at Tuco, and it looks like it was so close to taking Eli's hand off.
Listening to the audio commentary Eli said that the money bag was coated in acid so it would react in a certain way when he cut it open. He ended up drinking some of it by accident because it had been put into a bottle of pop he liked. He drank two pints of milk to try to neutralise it, but was so furious he said he'd had enough and wouldn't finish the film. Sergio eventually persuaded him otherwise, but both Eli and Clint said that there was virtually no health and safety on the sets of these films. They had to really look out for themselves.
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