Has TPM Aged Well for You?

[Amanaman]

Coheteboy, you nailed it bro. I'll have to think this over some more, but I'll say for now, that TPM feels like a more cohesive movie, while the other two feel like a series of loosely-connected shots and action sequences. At first, I attributed the 'empty' feeling of AOTC & ROTS to the spoilers, or burn-out from SW in general, but I'm becoming a firm believer in your theory.

ROTS could have had a more creative ending. We didn't NEED to see the whole childbirth sequence and Padme dying of a broken heart. It all felt forced. There are other ways of tying loose ends, while keeping the standalone integrity of the movie intact. I still don't see how Anakin fell to the dark side so quickly - the padme-will-die nightmare plot was just weak.

Oh, and I would've preferred Keira Knightley as Padme. Natalie was alright in TPM, but got progressively less believable.

Again, a great post, man. This is the answer I was searching for.

 

[Darthrazz]

Please read, don't skim:


TPM is the most Star Wars of the prequels. Eventually, people will see this.

The Phantom Menace is a great movie but with some FIXABLE flaws. All could be done very easily with some editing (less on jar jar flubbery and boss nass slobber... and no farting) and redubbing of some voices (gungans, neimodians, two-headed announcer, whatever). All done in post production. Very very easy fix. Jake Lloyd's a kid. Oh well... that'll be the only problem.

Even taking OUT the sound in a scene can make all the difference. Jar Jar can STILL step in poop but take away the cartoon sound effect and the scene will play entirely different. Instead of going "UGH", your reaction will become "HAW HAW! serves you right, you idiot."


Cinematography in this film is also more iconic than ANY of the other prequels. The exterior setups, the scenic views are all frameable works of art... mostly thanks to the vision of Doug Chiang who really looked at Ralph McQuarrie as inspiration. The newer artists who took over are extremely talented but I don't think they captured 'star wars' as well. Maybe because Ep1 was shot using more set work than bluescreen? Ep1 just feels more REAL.

Here's some scenes that are just stunning:

-view of theed palace
-invasion of theed
-darth maul and sith probes
-shot of maul deactivating lightsaber on tatooine
-first view of the senate
-gungans coming out of the fog
-federation tanks coming over the grassy hills
-the dispatching of all the battle droids
-many more


And why are all the fights just so much better in Ep1? And not just BETTER, but better EXECUTED as well. Ep2 was supposed to be just a geek dream with hundreds of jedi fighting at once. What we got was an amateur freak show that only rivals Star Wars Kid.

Ep1 laid the ground work with how cool a Jedi lightsaber fight was supposed to be with the opening of the film. Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan doing their stuff... it was awesome! It was fun! That FUN was very much absent from any future lightsaber battle following.

'Sith' might be the most entertaining overall of all the prequels, but the execution and story just isn't as powerful as it NEEDED to be. It's a hollow shell of what was set up from the original trilogy and Hayden Christensen ruins two star wars films with his horrible acting. I dont' care if he's normally good in other films.. he wasn't good here. He was reading his lines, and acting out the emotions; but he never believed what he was saying for a second. That's the problem with his acting. I just couldn't believe anything he said.


Fixing ep2 and 3 would take considerable re-writes, reshoots, reCASTING, and brand new fights that are actually GOOD. It would require too much work to fix those films... as well as make the star wars world BETTER.

Flo the waitress droid???

poorly rendered female droids in ep3??

general grievous needs a monacle and a mustache

Librarian woman was a beyotch.

snickering vulture droids???

talking super battle droids????

artoo detoo launching himself out of the starfighters in ep3???


And that's not even getting into the fights, the bad rehash of ep1 score in ep2, acting, and everything else.


Ep1 had some flaws (FLAWS, not problems) but it was good, solid, entertainment. A really strong set up for what's to come.

Ep2 and Ep3 had major flaws AND problems. Very disappointing.

You make some valid points. I have actually seen a version of the TPM that was edited by some mystery fan(some say it was Kevin Smith) that had made some of these changes, re-dubbing the Neimodian voices with sinister Alien voices, editing out lots of Jar Jar, getting rid of Anakins "WHOOPPEE", having Anakin Fly the ship and shoot out the reactor on his own. All in all it was a very enjoyable version. The more I watch this movie the more I see and enjoy it. I actually liked Qui-Gons character very much.

 

[pixletwin]

You make some valid points. I have actually seen a version of the TPM that was edited by some mystery fan(some say it was Kevin Smith) that had made some of these changes, re-dubbing the Neimodian voices with sinister Alien voices, editing out lots of Jar Jar, getting rid of Anakins "WHOOPPEE", having Anakin Fly the ship and shoot out the reactor on his own. All in all it was a very enjoyable version. The more I watch this movie the more I see and enjoy it. I actually liked Qui-Gons character very much.

"The Phantom Edit" I agree it was castly superior compared to the official TPM.

 

[Amanaman]

There have been other, newer, attempts at editing TPM. "Balance of the Force" is one of them. I don't quite remember the changes, but it was far more enjoyable. The movie felt darker, for example, you won't see any of the pilot-Nute Gunray dialogue at the beginning of the film.

TPM's annoyances are a lot easier to fix than the structural problems of AOTC and ROTS.

 

[bigdaddyrob]

Ok so now I am dieing to check out TPE , lol

I don't think I can make any point's greater or more thought out then Darthrazz.

I think in my head that I know my heart lied to me...alot. I lied and defended the films when even I couldn't get past the writting and acting. Sith' was horrible and a sad way to end/begin what was such a huge part of my child hood.

My overall biggest complaint were the villians. A steller cast of baddies, bigger then life that could set the stage. These were the legandary beasts the Jedi set war apun.

Oh there goes Maul, like a punk. Well there is Jango, this is going to be great! Oh, well GG! He is going to be the man. I mean he is so awsome and .... need...hey someone help GG I think he is having trouble breathing, someone call 911....

Sorry mini rant over

not dead

 

[Coheteboy]

Ok so now I am dieing to check out TPE , lol

I don't think I can make any point's greater or more thought out then Darthrazz.

I think in my head that I know my heart lied to me...alot. I lied and defended the films when even I couldn't get past the writting and acting. Sith' was horrible and a sad way to end/begin what was such a huge part of my child hood.

My overall biggest complaint were the villians. A steller cast of baddies, bigger then life that could set the stage. These were the legandary beasts the Jedi set war apun.

Oh there goes Maul, like a punk. Well there is Jango, this is going to be great! Oh, well GG! He is going to be the man. I mean he is so awsome and .... need...hey someone help GG I think he is having trouble breathing, someone call 911....

Sorry mini rant over

not dead

Yah, that's another problem with the prequels overall is that we were introduced to new pawns / villains to carry each film.

Darth Maul served his role though. He was a huge threat to our heroes, and also brought the SITH into play. Killing him off was almost necessary since ep2 takes place long after ep1. We don't need an explanation of his whereabouts in ep2 if he doesn't show up again.

So that just makes ep1 that much stronger. We had a main threat throughout the film and it was resolved by the end.

Ep2 had NO main villain throughout. We had the sorta mysterious Jango that was killed off in disappointing fashion. And then we had Tyranus who was introduced in the third act and escapes.

Ep3 killed off Tyranus in the beginning, introduced grievous, killed him off in the middle, and then gave us palpatine in the final stretch.


Too many things resolved. Grievous was just fluff. A distraction. A poor excuse for a 4saber handler. Didn't push what was important.

Ep2 and 3 felt like first drafts. Ep1 felt more complete and whole.

 

[Amanaman]

So, Doug Chiang didn't work on Eps 2 and 3? That would say a lot.

 

[BrooklynWolf X]

i agree with your defensive position of TPM, cuz i really liked the movie as well. but to say AoTC and especially RoTS as bad movies...that's where i have to disagree.

the only thing that keeps AoTC reaching the status of awesome is the love scenes. oh and reused score. everything else? i thought it was great. the point of AoTC was to establish anakin as brash and fiery. obi wan as...well, the legendary obi wan. i thought it did both great.

it also answered another question...why is boba so kickass? well, cuz of his dad.

RoTS? dude...that movie is 2 hrs of holy sith! the tone of the movie more closely matches the OT than the first 2. tyrannus, well, he kind of became what maul and boba were...fan favs. but in the end, he's supposed to be viewed as a pawn in sidious game. so him meeting his maker early in RoTS...it had to be done. GG? he's the thing that keeps obi wan away from anakin...basically, plot device.

anyway, i'd write more, but i have to head out.

will be back later.

 

[McHaleyArt]

Mike J. Nichols was responsible for "The Phantom Edit" and he also did his own edit of Attack of the Clones entitled "Attack of the Phantom."

 

[Anzik]

Watching TPM with my son gave me a vastly improved view of it.

 

[teemu]

TPM is an Atomic Bomb,A disgrace of a Starwars Film! -Siskel @ Ebert

 

[automaton]

TPM is the most Star Wars of the prequels. Eventually, people will see this.

i couldn't agree more... Liam Niessen helped bring a sense of heart to the prequel that was absent in the following two... as with Alec Guinness and Harrison Ford, he made Lucas's dialogue work.

 

[Coheteboy]

i agree with your defensive position of TPM, cuz i really liked the movie as well. but to say AoTC and especially RoTS as bad movies...that's where i have to disagree.

the only thing that keeps AoTC reaching the status of awesome is the love scenes. oh and reused score. everything else? i thought it was great. the point of AoTC was to establish anakin as brash and fiery. obi wan as...well, the legendary obi wan. i thought it did both great.

it also answered another question...why is boba so kickass? well, cuz of his dad.

RoTS? dude...that movie is 2 hrs of holy sith! the tone of the movie more closely matches the OT than the first 2. tyrannus, well, he kind of became what maul and boba were...fan favs. but in the end, he's supposed to be viewed as a pawn in sidious game. so him meeting his maker early in RoTS...it had to be done. GG? he's the thing that keeps obi wan away from anakin...basically, plot device.

anyway, i'd write more, but i have to head out.

will be back later.

Well, I didn't say that ep2 and ep3 are "bad" movies... I just said they're more disappointing than Ep1 was.

Ok I take that back... Ep2 was a BAD MOVIE with some decent action set pieces. Ep3 was a DECENT MOVIE with great effects and a good story but very rushed.


I can list my reasons why Ep2 was bad but I really don't want to step on everyone's toes tonite.


Anybody see 30 ROCK tonite? It was great! And perfect timing because Tina Fey had a piece of dialogue that said "attack of the clones was the weakest of the prequels" Made me laugh.

 

[Outer_Rim]

So, Doug Chiang didn't work on Eps 2 and 3? That would say a lot.

Doug Chiang worked on Episodes 1 and 2, and some of his art concepts were used for 3.

 

[PosterBoyKelly]

TPM is an Atomic Bomb,A disgrace of a Starwars Film! -Siskel @ Ebert

And now one of them's dead, what's that say?:emperor (revenge of the lucas)

 

[Agent0028]

I was thinking the other day...we always joke about the groan worthy lines between Anakin and Padme in AOTC and ROTS, however I remembered one (maybe others remembered anyways) from TPM.

Anakin: Are you an Angel?

I remember that one made me groan in the theater on first viewing. Nine year old slave boy using a lame pick up line on a 14 year old queen. And then Lucas explains it as being a species from a planet. *sigh* I still love the prequels though, I just cringe a little more often during them.

 

[Ultimate Weapon]

You know, I totally surprised myself last weekend with this movie. I actually watched it a few times over the course of the weekend. Now I was working on other projects during the same time so it's not like I sat through it and digested it in its entirety several times. I sat through it completely once and then just played it over and over while doing other things like listening to the radio.

Anyway, I realized that I like this flick a lot better than I remember. For a long time it had been the most maligned of the prequels for me with the only bright spots being Qui-gon, Kenobi, Maul, all the usuals. In the end the only things that really detract from the film for me are JarJar's antics and the cartoonishness of many of the podracers, oh, and the complete ugliness of the Yoda puppet. Beyond that I think it's pretty solid. The story works for me.

If JarJar weren't such a scene hog and over-exagerated, the film would be so much better. It's also true that this is the only prequel film where the main bad guy actually seems like a direct threat. Qui-gon becomes an excellent foil for the arrogance of the Jedi council (something missing in the others) and in some ways is almost like the Han Solo of the Jedi. There are a lot of amazing scenes and shots in this film and all of them seem to be structured to progress the story more fully than in the other prequels. Not to mention the beginning of the flick is just great (up until JarJar says "ex-queeze me").

I'm really eager to see this film once the puppet Yoda has been replaced with the digital version from EPII and III as many sources have reported. So that's my take on it today.

 

[Captain Faramir]

I'm totally behind you dude. If you excised most of the Jar Jar stuff and the dumb 12-year-old humor, it would be a gorgeous movie. In fact, even Jar Jar can be funny--in the Bongo his interaction with Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan is actually delightful because it's toned down and balanced by Jinn's superb acting and level personae. Leave him on his own for five seconds though and he becomes a maniacal fool who does little more than make fans cry as he unintentionally defames the name of the beloved story. If they were to edit out most of his scenes and add those cut parts of the lightsaber dual, people would have a different opinion of TPM. Guaranteed.

 

[Captain Faramir]

OK maybe not guaranteed, but at least to me it would.

 

[Coheteboy]

You know, I totally surprised myself last weekend with this movie. I actually watched it a few times over the course of the weekend. Now I was working on other projects during the same time so it's not like I sat through it and digested it in its entirety several times. I sat through it completely once and then just played it over and over while doing other things like listening to the radio.

Anyway, I realized that I like this flick a lot better than I remember. For a long time it had been the most maligned of the prequels for me with the only bright spots being Qui-gon, Kenobi, Maul, all the usuals. In the end the only things that really detract from the film for me are JarJar's antics and the cartoonishness of many of the podracers, oh, and the complete ugliness of the Yoda puppet. Beyond that I think it's pretty solid. The story works for me.

If JarJar weren't such a scene hog and over-exagerated, the film would be so much better. It's also true that this is the only prequel film where the main bad guy actually seems like a direct threat. Qui-gon becomes an excellent foil for the arrogance of the Jedi council (something missing in the others) and in some ways is almost like the Han Solo of the Jedi. There are a lot of amazing scenes and shots in this film and all of them seem to be structured to progress the story more fully than in the other prequels. Not to mention the beginning of the flick is just great (up until JarJar says "ex-queeze me").

I'm really eager to see this film once the puppet Yoda has been replaced with the digital version from EPII and III as many sources have reported. So that's my take on it today.

Your take is my take as well!

THIS film is exactly how I thought the Jedi were to be. It made them SO COOL! I just love the first action piece on the federation ship. It's just done so well. And breaking through the blast doors, etc. I mean, this is a film where George wasn't crapping his pants. He was starting his movie and was probably paid MORE attention to how everything was choreographed together.

The other films got sloppy and he got lazy. Or something.


The only things that really hinder TPM are like you said.... the cartoonish nature of SOME of the characters. Everyone else plays it fine.. even better than fine. Acting was only bad with Jake Lloyd. It was passable with Sam Jackson but just fine with everyone else. As bad as Jar Jar is, it's not bad acting... it's bad characterization.

Ep2 and 3 is just FILLED with so much bad acting that it's so hard to sit through... especially 3PO. I partially blame Anthony Daniels for his stuttering performance. He was great in the original trilogy. He was more serious, even if he was the butt of the joke. In the prequels, he knows he's the comic relief and plays it that way.... and fails over and over again.


I sound like I hate the prequels, and sometimes I really do. It's just a missed opportunity in a lot of areas to really shine. All that work. It makes me sad.

TPM at least hit the nail on the head a bit harder than the other two in my opinion. It did what it intended to do and you felt good with the majority of it.