The Phantom Menace: It actually isn't that bad!

[Patriot666]

Man Khev, you really stated all of my favorite parts of ROTS right there. I used to be a hater of the PT. It was only after my most recent viewing that I accepted it, and really appreciated it. Now I can honestly say that I am a fan of all 3 films.

 

[WWEJedi]

"The Emperor asks the impossible, I need more MEN." Obviously bugs weren't building the Death Star. And Geonosians were technically Separatists and Palpatine cut all ties with them when he created the Empire anyway. But I get your point. I just think the only "consistency" that matters is quality or entertainment value. Because we forgive continuity inconsistencies all the time between sequels and prequels when the end result is still "cool." "Kane said he saw thousands of eggs there, thousands." Um, no he didn't. But whatever, ALIENS rocks.

I don't think the OT has rock solid continuity with itself and neither does the PT + OT. Hell even the PT seems to suffer some issues internally. Wasn't Anakin big on visiting all the stars and freeing slaves? Shouldn't that have at least gotten a passing mention in Episode II or III? Otherwise why even bring it up in TPM? Eh, whatever.

At the end of the day I do find entertainment value in TPM and the PT and I like having options. To me there already are nine SW films. "Harmy trilogy" and "PT + OT SE." Is the Harmy trilogy the one I respect more? Of course. Just like I respect Schindler's List more than I do Return of the Jedi. But screw only watching respectable crap. Bring on the complete nine episode saga that we've been waiting for since we were kids.

And come on JAWS and all you OT fuddy duddies, you've got to be able to at least love the PT ironically. It's just funny. And I'm serious when I say that! Here's how to enjoy the PT:

1. Love the cool stuff (Darth Maul, Qui Gon Jinn, ummm, Padme's half shirt.)

2. Laugh that the stupid stuff "happened." Treat them like comedies that are so stupidly not funny that they ARE funny. Have you ever watched a buddy make a joke, and the response is so deafeningly silent that it's freaking hilarious? And then you can't help but laugh at him? And you don't suddenly hate him or go all "you're not my friend anymore, you're stupid now and inconsistent with who you used to be." No, that stupid moment was "real" and you laugh your ass off whenever you think about it.

We've kind of got that in Star Wars now. And I just think it's okay. Camp out in the Harmy OT till you're blue in the face. I have. But seriously, we can still enjoy this "saga." We really can. It really is all fun if you're willing to let it be. For crying out loud the freaking Holiday Special happened. And the "Ewok Adventure." SW can survive being stupid. It always has. But at the same time it's still cool. And that's the bottom line. /mic drop

Many species from many different planets constructed parts of the Death Star. The Geonosians were just one part of a cog. So yes they did build the death star.... well part of it. So it is correct, just does not tell the whole story. That is why the EU was created... to tell more parts of the story of Star Wars that the movies could not. People who complain about the PT should really read some of PT novels. They are incredible movie tie ins that enhance the universe. Then again most people who complain (not talking about you Khev) will never take the time to read the books because its not Star Wars... which is just a bunch of garbage.

Enjoyed reading your thought out posts Khev, I will add more....

 

[WWEJedi]

Vader built Threepio ''dear oh dear''

What is wrong with that?

Complaining to complain?

 

[WWEJedi]

I gave the PT their chance... I did not hate AOTC and ROTS on first viewing... But things I thought were cool got worse with repeat viewings... I find NO fun in watching AOTC... There is not one moment I enjoy... I hate the film... First viewing I was just happy Jar Jar was hardly in it and I thought Yoda fight was cool in the fact they pulled it off (even though I don't like the idea if Yoda using a saber) But there is nothing else I enjoy in the film... I think it is by far the worst if the SW films and I mean BY FAR!!

Sith had things liked at first... Like Vader killing the younglings... But then Time went by and I realized that that was all the great and mighty Vader did... Kill Younglings and unarmed aliens.... Then he got his but kicked by the only person who could stand up for himself... Add that to the fact that I don't think Vader deserves redemption because he did kill children... The Final Duel between Ben and Vader should have been Epic but it was ruined by a drama free dual, cutaways to the awful Yoda Emperor fight, and finally awful green screen wire swinging and lava boats... Obi Wan is shown to be an idiot when he jumps in the middle of a hundred droids to fight Grevious and should have been killed on the spot..

The opening should have been EPIC.... The Space battle to end all space battles... Instead we end up dealing with tiny droids drilling holes in the Jedi ships.
Ian McDiarmid wielding a Saber is just awful and his battle with Sam Jackson... Gahhh


I know I am slamming on the films but I am just explaining why I don't care for them (there are many other reasons) Really Khev... I just don't like them... I stayed away from the OT because the PT ruined my enjoyment of them... I had to finally wipe them out of my mind.. Think of them as never happening and go with what I use to imagine so I enjoy the original films again...

AOTC and ROTS are completely joyless and cold. I could handle Sith being dark if it was exciting but it's not.. Not for me...

I wish I could watch them like you do and just enjoy them for what they are... But I cant...

I really....truly.... Deeply... Hate them




PS - Prometheus is fan fiction also... Just better fan fiction... I do not think of those films related at all.

PSS - Kane did see a lot of eggs... Why do you say he didn't?

Vader is supposed to be evil... to be a true sith.... somewhat brainwashed by the Emperor.... of course he is going to kill children. Read the graphic novels and novels or the new marvel comics if you want some epic Vader moments. He takes down nine armed Jedi in one sitting, takes a beating but still wins. It was awesome. Re-edit ROTS to watch the full duel and it is much better, even then it is fine as it is. The green screen is fine. You must hate AoU for the green screens and CGI to? No difference. Grievous is a warrior. Before he was a cyborg. A warrior fights an honorable fight. Palpatine wielding a lightsaber is fine, nothing wrong with it.

 

[WWEJedi]

With you on all these points but for me, ROTS is my most unwatchable/hated and abhorrent SW film.

The script and acting are just unbearable. "Sith Lords are our speciality" ????????? WTF????? If I put all the crap lines in this thread it would probably end up being 90% of the script.

Palpatine is just terrible - the voice when he changes?? The fight with SLJ; his stupid faces he pulls...

The saber fight at the end is just a couple of girls doing callisthenics - twirling batons like a pair of fairies. Compare this to the Bespin showdown....please. You don't need the "show" if we care about the outcome of the characters. Who gave two craps about the outcome on Mustafar??? No one, because the characters were so wooden throughout all there PT films.

I could go on and on, but I'm just getting angry as I type

The Bespin "showdown" LOL. It was Luke getting beat up, hand chopped off, the horrible "NOOOOOO" and he falls hundreds of feet does not get injured down a magic sliding esacape to the bottom of a city where there just so happens to be antennas and Luke calls Leia and she knows where he is....

Right.

I can hate on the OT just like everyone can on the PT.


What about Ewoks beating Stormtroopers with sticks and stones?

Arguments made against the PT can be made just as easily for the OT.

All Star Wars movies are good. No need to look at them with a critics eye.

 

[WWEJedi]

Ha ha, indeed.

Things I really liked in ROTS:

1. Anakin's duel with Dooku - best saber fight in the movie

2. General Grievous - I just think he's a fun character

3. The scene where Anakin is alone in the Jedi Council chamber and thinking about Padme

4. Bail Organa arriving at the Jedi Temple. "I'm sorry sir, it's time for you to leave." "And so it is."

5 Obi-Wan and Padme's discussion at her apartment. "Anakin is the father isn't he? I'm so sorry." I really do think that ROTS has a number of scenes that are actually well acted.

6. "You were the Chosen One!" I really do think that that was an iconic line/delivery (in a good way.) Obi-Wan's entire speech while Anakin burned actually played out very well IMO.

7. Yoda/Palpatine duel - I think I recall you saying that you hated this one but I just really like how Yoda went right after the head of the snake and just was done screwing around. I also LOVED that they kind of gave all those boring Senate meetings this huge payoff by having it be the arena in which Yoda and Sidious fought. And even though Yoda is CG and Sidious was acting over the top I still always feel like Sidious is really *interacting with Yoda,* looking at him, reacting to him, it didn't feel like a guy performing next to a cartoon, I always watch that part as two characters just really trying to take each other out.

8. Sidious smiling while Vader suffers - Yeah it follows the "noooo" but it's just so damn evil for him to be taking any glee in Vader's anguish. He really kind of makes you believe that he is invested in Anakin/Vader throughout the trilogy and that he does see him as a true comrade. But he just can't help but crack a smile watching Vader crack under the realization of the monster he has become.

I recently watched over the past month the entire Harmy trilogy and then PT + OT SE. And I found that I really enjoyed both approaches to the series. Harmy is great because I can just sit back and not wince or cringe at pretty much anything until some select parts of ROTJ. It's the classic OT, it always delivers. But as I mentioned earlier the very existence of the Harmy discs allow me to finally say "okay George, I'll try it your way, I'll watch your six movies with enhancements and revisions and see how they play together without getting pissed that you are forever denying me the option of watching them the way I remembered them." And it really was pretty cool to marathon the six over a period of about a week and a half (I think I did both AOTC and ROTS in two sittings each though.)

One thing that I got from watching all six is this huge thread of Sidious trying to replace Darth Maul. TPM kind of starts the saga with *everybody* having what they want. The Jedi have peace, Anakin has his mom, the Trade Federation have assumedly countless wealth, and Sidious has this young, devoted, athletic perfect instrument of death and destruction in Darth Maul, plus a good amount of power as a Senator from Naboo. But everyone *thinks* they want more, Palpatine included, and the more victories both good and evil characters achieve the more they just want things to go back to how they were at the beginning of TPM.

With regard to Sidious he gets all the power he could ever want but losing Maul just seems to be this massive cost to him. He clearly isn't satisfied with Dooku, because he likes his apprentices young and spry. It's almost kind of creepy but in an "evil bad guy" kind of way. So Dooku is a placeholder until he can get a more Maul-like apprentice. Which he sees in Anakin but then Anakin has to go and get himself burned and roboticized. That won't do. So you watch the OT after the PT and it seems so natural for Sidious to want to move on to Luke. It kind of feels like the Emperor has just been sitting atop the galaxy with this huge hollow victory for 30 years because he doesn't have his Maul.

When Luke rejects him he's got like decades of rage that pours out of his fingertips. It's just a dynamic that really only culminates in that specific way if you watch all six movies. And there were other elements and threads that I won't go off about but my point is that the "saga" as George presented it really does have merit IMO. And I realized that I'm not so much an "OT purist" at heart (and I thought I was) so much as I just always want the *option* to be a purist, even if I don't exercise it all the time. I need to have the option to just go back to the way things were. Heck I sometimes even break up the OT. I'll watch Star Wars and be taken back to watching it in the theater in 77 or 78 before I had any concept of further adventures. And I'll sometimes watch Empire with remembrance of how awesome a one-two punch it was with SW before ewoks and twin sisters came along. And his Special Editions denied me from doing that.

But now one day, or week, or entire year I can just be in "original theatrical OT mode" and at any other given moment I can give the whole saga a chance. I guess part of why I'm going off about all of this is because I think there's a good chance that the things that were so frustrating to me might be the same things that currently annoy other people who grew up with the films. To the point where if you see a clip from one of the SE's or Jar Jar Binks or something it's like this anger and sense of injustice wells up. I felt like if I acknowledged the PT or the SE revisions that I was accepting a "lie" that these movies were always meant to be different than they were. And that animosity really drove me to magnify the weaker aspects of the films just to make dismissing them even easier.

I think Harmy has just allowed me to let go of the bad and my anticipation (we'll see if it delivers or not) for The Force Awakens has allowed me to embrace those things that I think are good about the full Lucas saga.

Excellent excellent excellent post.

 

[WWEJedi]

Some great points. And i did read all the original post!
In my mind, Palpatine's plan was never for the TF to capture Padme. He *knew* those bungling idiots would never be able to. He likely also knew the Jedi were on their way. Picking up Anakin might have been a lucky coincidence(Although, Tatooine was the next star system to Naboo, in a direct line to Coruscant, so you never know. Perhaps Naboo was chosen specifically because it was in line to Tatooine).
I also believe he only sent Maul to be a slight nuisance to the Jedi on the way to Coruscant. After they leave him on Tatooine, Palpatine orders Maul to Naboo(Because he *knows* Amidala won't be placated), to further make it look like Maul was the baddie all along(Shades of Trevor/The Mandarin here, lol).
The entire endgame is to engineer the vote of no confidence in Valorum. To do that, he needs Amidala to make it alive to Coruscant, see the corruption, and call for a vote in the senate. This wouldn't happen if she were captured by the Trade Federation, or taken/killed by Maul. Any of the anger "I want that treaty SIGNED!!" is all faked. If she signs a treaty, no-one in the senate will care. There will be no call for a vote to oust Valorum.
He needs her to call for the vote. The icing on the cake is that she goes back and could possibly be martyred for his cause. If she *was* killed, he might have gained even more support(And might have been able to set his plans in motion earlier for the next phases).
As it is, he had to engineer the courts letting Gunray free, so Gunray would ally with all the most powerful, wealthy conglomerate systems and be a real threat to the Republic. Irony of ironies, in the PT, Palpatine sets up the board to have his two main enemies, the uber rich businesses(The only people who could raise private armies against him), and the Jedi(Whom he very cleverly *gives* a clone army to them to command), and makes them both duke it out till they are both ground down to nothing. Meanwhile the army he so graciously *gave* to the Jedi, envelopes them(In what starts off looking like protection), and eventually turns out to be an elaborate trap, having the Jedi all on their own with an army of soldiers trained from birth to kill them...
Of course, all the while normal citizens of the Republic are probably glad Palpatine gets more and more powers to "deal with the separatists", until he declares the republic dead and the start of the empire.
I can understand why some people might be confused as to a plot you really have to think about to understand it, but for me it makes the PT stand high above the OT(Only in terms of the layers of the story of course).









I've always loved it. They aren't the best movies ever made but i look at it like this(Even with Clone Wars, and Rebels): It's STAR WARS. I love it. Give me MORE!




On the tenth anniversary of the release of the movie, i got absolutely wasted and watched all three prequels back to back.
Still loved them. And they did seem more fun when i was drunk.
For anyone who hates Jar-Jar, watch Bombad Jedi from The Clone Wars Season One. It uses Jar-Jar in the right scenarios, and he's hilarious.

That Jedi has summoned a monster!!!!

You get it.



Nice post.









Edit. Sorry for so many back to back posts. I do not know how to multiquote.

 

[pixletwin]

It's quite a complex operation to multi quote. See the button at bottom with the quotation mark and the plus sign? Click that button on every post you want to quote.

Bada bing, bada boom.

 

[WWEJedi]

You get it.



Nice post.









Edit. Sorry for so many back to back posts. I do not know how to multiquote.

It's quite a complex operation to multi quote. See the button at bottom with the quotation mark and the plus sign? Click that button on every post you want to quote.

Bada bing, bada boom.

Wow.... that easy.



Thank you, gonna be much easier now.

 

[jkno]

I can hate on the OT just like everyone can on the PT.


What about Ewoks beating Stormtroopers with sticks and stones?

Arguments made against the PT can be made just as easily for the OT.

All Star Wars movies are good. No need to look at them with a critics eye.

You can hate OT all you want but it won't make it less that it is. And there is one thing, you cannot have PT without OT. The impact of OT back then was different than PT for many reasons, with all their flaws and good things. It will take some time, if ever, for PT to become as iconic as OT. Thus we the OT guys, who watched it in cinemas, forgive OT for its flaws easier, because it was part of our childhood and cherished memories in times where movies like this were non-existent.

 

[KerotanFrog]

Yeah everything the OP said was seriously fleshed out in "Darth Plagueis" by James Luceno. It's the best Star Wars book I've ever read and made Palpatine my favorite character out of the entire universe. I'd recommend it to any Star Wars fan over any of the movies or shows.

 

[user 6734]

Yeah everything the OP said was seriously fleshed out in "Darth Plagueis" by James Luceno. It's the best Star Wars book I've ever read and made Palpatine my favorite character out of the entire universe. I'd recommend it to any Star Wars fan over any of the movies or shows.

I read it too...and while it starts off a bit dry...its really a cool inside look into Palpatines background

 

[jkno]

This could explain a few things regarding TPM too:

 

[Patriot666]

This could explain a few things regarding TPM too:

Lmao. True.

 

[Rondesmo]

Me too, contrary at most of people, it’s my favorite PT movie.
the fact that it's still almost self-produced, that it's shot on 35 mm film and not digital, that there's still a majority of natural settings gives it an authenticity that the following ones have definitively lost.
finally, Jake Lloyd camped an impeccable and credible Anakin who let happen a formidable character who was going to be ruined in the following films.
to sum up, the Phantom menace, far from being perfect, promised a lot and hinted at a great saga, but the sequels were only disappointing

 

[Bravomite]

PALPATINE'S PLAN

I always thought it was so *ridiculously* elaborate and contrived. We know he wants to kill the Jedi and rule the galaxy. So his plan was to get the Trade Federation to create a blockade around Naboo so that a domino effect could occur where Amidala flees to Tatooine, where he has conceived or somehow foreseen this Anakin kid to be. The "alarming chain of events" will get Anakin to be whisked away to Coruscant while he falls in love with Padme, his mother dies, he becomes enraged and helps Palpatine kill the Jedi. But before that Palpatine also makes sure that Amidala (who would have been kidnapped and taken to Naboo to sign a treaty if Maul succeeded on Tatooine) would actually FLEE to Coruscant where she can do the whole "no confidence" thing and get Palpatine elected. WHAT???

How the hell could anyone puppeteer everything so perfectly to make all that happen? Oh yeah, "maxi big the Force" bla bla bla. It just seemed like such an ill thought out ridiculous stretch for that all to be Palpatine's plan. But whatever, its the prequels and par for the course.

But then I read an original synopsis for "The Star Wars" or whatever back from the 70's. It spelled out more what Palpatine was doing. Before he had an Empire at his disposal he did indeed trick the Trade Federation into raising import/export taxes on distant worlds that had been colonized and didn't have the planetary resources to sustain themselves. When the taxes skyrocketed those planets could no longer afford to import goods and THOUSANDS of them starved and were wiped out. That caused turmoil and outrage in the Republic and he used that leverage to unseat the Chancellor.

So he wasn't all about the red tape of tax percentages and people properly filling out their forms on April 15th or having to add this or that to the cost of a new gun. No, he just didn't have an army so he used political methods to do the SAME thing he would later use the Death Star for. *Wipe out entire planets.* Then once he got the power and the technology he was free to use the more direct approach for keeping people in line. That's pretty freaking cool if you ask me.

I was watching TPM and here he was on the balcony with Darth Maul telling him to go to Tatooine, capture the Queen and take her to Naboo to sign the treaty. I thought why the hell wouldn't he just come clean to his own apprentice? "Chase her but don't capture her. I need her to speak up in the Senate and get me elected." Why not say that? Because that WASN'T his plan. That was his improvisation when she DIDN'T sign the treaty and Naboo didn't stop exporting to other worlds causing their destruction. With the trade embargo kind of stuttering and her in Coruscant he immediately figured out an even quicker way for her to be useful. Trick her (with seemingly sound logic) into setting him up as Supreme Leader with just her planet in peril instead of thousands. And she was so persuasive that it worked.

Suddenly I feel like I "got" what Lucas was going for. What was driving everything and what George pretty much messed up in conveying. I guess he just didn't think it was necessary or that he assumed people would mull over all the dialogue to piece Palpatine's plan together. I don't think Palpatine used the midichlorians to create Anakin anymore. I think that was just another lie that he threw out there in ROTS because he knew that Anakin knew that he didn't have a conventional dad. I think the "Living Force" was picking up on Palpatine's plan and created Anakin to thwart him. Tatooine and all that was Force manipulation in response to the disturbance created by the Sith, not Palpatine's own insanely engineered plan.

So I recognize where George blew it big time. All he had to do was add an extra line to the opening scroll. Why was the Death Star a threat? Because it could blow up a freaking planet! When did we learn this? The opening scroll! "Turmoil has engulfed the Republic. The taxation to outlying star systems is in dispute. If trade of valuable resources becomes too expensive entire worlds will perish." That's all that it would have taken! Then the gravity of the situation would have been there from minute one. But alas, George probably wanted it to be this big mystery but it was never explained and became this big confusing thing.

So yeah, you've got to connect the dots and that is the apologist approach. But I also think it is the *correct* interpretation of events especially if you read the original backstory synopsis from back in the day, which I readily admit you shouldn't have to do, but still looking at things with that in mind really elevates the entire situation IMO.

Khev this is great post from the days before the ST that I am only now discovering!

I hadn't realised that Palpatine's scheme to become Chancellor was not clear to the audience, I've always interpreted the movie in the manner that you described above. I don't know if that's because I read the novelisation at the time together with other EU books like 'Cloak of Deception' and these fleshed out Palpatine's character and political machinations but I never viewed it in any other way. Palpatine had an end goal and a method of getting there but what made him so masterful was his ability to pivot when events didn't go the way he planned, seizing the initiative to his advantage.

I always thought his last line to Anakin, 'and I will watch your career with great interest' was another insight that Palpatine had just discovered a potential new tool to use, not that he had always known about Anakin and set events in motion to bring the boy within his sphere of influence.

 

[Khev]

Khev this is great post from the days before the ST that I am only now discovering!

And I literally don't even remember writing it but reading it now I agree that I did make some decent points, lol.

 

[Bravomite]

And I literally don't even remember writing it but reading it now I agree that I did make some decent points, lol.

Haha, this is your equivalent of someone finding some of your old tweets that would no-longer be considered politically correct. Hey look guys I found a post where Khev is saying positive and insightful points about the Prequel Trilogy.

 

[Username]

And I literally don't even remember writing it but reading it now I agree that I did make some decent points, lol.

I have to say that i respectfully disagree with a lot of the points.
With the now-canon info that the clone army was already in production by the time Qui-Gon died, the plan was in full swing. And what we are presented with at the end of TPM is the intended result of Sidious.
My thoughts(And i'm not being argumentative), are that Sidious knew Nute Gunray would fumble Amidala, and that Qui-Gon would be forced to go to Tattooine for repairs and pick up Anakin, that Maul, while the equal of most single Jedi(At least in combat, his strategy was always one of head on attack, with no other strategies), wouldn't be able to deal with two, and that the end result would be the end of the blockade, the death of Maul and Qui-Gon, sympathy for Naboo in the senate, his election to the office of Chancellor, and a simmering pot of seperatism, droids and clones, that would come to the boil in ten years, during which he would be seemingly a nice guy, trying his best, but mostly failing due to corruption in the senate, and not having the powers he needed to nip the seperatism in the bud.

 

[ErikElvis]

I never hated the prequels they were just kinda there for me. I’ve come to appreciate the story they tell. I have to admit the phantom menace is the least watched of them for me. I just get annoyed by jar jar. I know I know…..