HBO: The Last of Us

[e30ernest]

I’d imagine any of us would do the same if sonic the hedgehog was strapped to a hospital table and about to be killed. Wouldn’t let that slide

 

[MeatHookGekko]

Which also leads to another thought... make Joel completely different in the tv show (anxiety, less aggressive and masculine, etc) and - as it turns out - now have a lot of people saying how much they dislike Joel (tv version) for making the decision he did (because in the game, the characters, their relationships and motivations were so well developed, NOBODY disked Joel and the decision he made. It's never been a conversation point ever, anywhere, before this last episode aired.

I agree that Pascal wasn't a great fit for the Joel character. That's just my take on it though.

The person I thought would be interesting, and not someone people would think immediately about for Joel would be Jim Carrey. Especially in the video above, with the beard and the serious tone and conversation/interview, you can see Carrey, like a lot of comedians, are coming from a place of great pain.

Now could Carrey pull off the physicality of the role? Well at least for S1, there wasn't too much hand to hand type combat for Joel. Not to the degree of the game. Carrey had some serious roles before. Now whether he would have great chemistry with a kid/child actor, that's unclear. But I can safely say Carrey, IMHO, is someone I see as a vastly better overall actor than Pascal.

My take on the dislike might come from the jarring change in Joel in just one episode. He's bitter and isolated and sullen for 8 episodes. Then for the first 20 minutes of E9, he's a nervous people pleaser to Ellie. Suddenly he wants to be Dad Of The Year. Too fast and too jarring. I'm not sure any actor could have made that transition with that little lead time.

My best guess as to what lots of people dislike is the violation of "Show Don't Tell"

For example, the FEDRA captain says Ellie is very smart and has leadership potential. Based on what exactly? Don't tell us and pretend everyone is going to believe it because of words, actually show it in scenes and within the narrative. Henry's regrets about the deal he made to save Sam, how sorry is he? Don't tell us, show us. When Tess says to Joel to "Save Who You Can" and that he should protect Ellie for her, the depth of their history together, don't tell us that "Tess was like family", show us. That Tommy and Joel had a major falling out, don't have Maria tell us while she's cutting Ellie's hair, do a flashback scene and show us.

What I'm gauging as "dislike" might be that we don't really get a lot of fleshing out of Joel and Ellie. Spending a full episode at the FEDRA school and showing what Riley and Ellie went through and how that system is run, would have done wonders for understanding the loss of Riley and understanding why Ellie is so mistrustful of FEDRA in general. But they are best friends because we are told that. Give us more Ellie and Riley and show us instead.

Before I said maybe 13 episodes would have been better, now I'm thinking 20 episodes split into two 10 episode half seasons for S1 would give the narrative a chance to stretch it's legs.

It's hard to care about characters where the audience doesn't have enough time with them to make some kind of emotional investment. Maybe this is one point where everyone can agree - More TLOU and more episodes to flesh things out would have been a good thing. For those who loved it, they would get more to love. For those who didn't, they'd get a chance at more character development.

Just some thoughts.

 

[Johnny Utah]

I liked Pedro's terminator mode, especially when he killed the doctor and Marlene.

It reminded me of Walter White killing Uncle Jack.

 

[R_R_X]

Honestly I did t think of it that way. I saw it as an urgency to save your adopted daughter from some crazy people. I didn’t feel any guilt nor did I care about them after they were suddenly about to kill Ellie. I just kinda rushed in. Now was it right? No. But screw those guys. They aren’t out to save the world. They will use a “cure” for their own personals gain. And screw that doctor ….

That's what I meant, killing everyone in the hospital didn't feel right but it was the only way to make sure Ellie survived so everyone in my way was done and I was cruel too, especially when they taunted me with "Is she really worth it?" the *******s.

 

[R_R_X]

I liked Pedro's terminator mode, especially when he killed the doctor and Marlene.

It reminded me of Walter White killing Uncle Jack.
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I think Pedro's delivery in that scene was terrible, the composition of the shot and how quickly Joel executes her in the game after delivering that ice cold line goes much harder.

 

[xipotec]

This show is great. Undortunalty we have a “game” to compare it to. And games are more engaged as you play the character, so its naturally going to take on the players personality. They had to give Joel his own personality beyond what the gamer thinks or feels.

So of course some folks are gonna feel like the character is not correct. They all have preconceived notions of what it means….

I watch with people who do not game , and therefore have a much better view of the show, with nothing to compare it too. Same for the Walking Dead. The last season could have been a banger if the proper actors were still with the show, be alas they are not.

Everyone I watch with loves the show, and it seems the rating agree with that.

Gamers , and comic fans, and basically anyone who had consumed any media prior to a shows release will always be disappointed that it didnt match their personal cannon.

I remember how I felt seeing how they did Shanes death in TWD, and how much better the comic was….but you just go with it. One interpretation is diffferwnec than another.

 

[Wor-Gar]

A long, long time ago, some people felt Jaws the novel was better than the movie. Bah!

 

[R_R_X]

This show is great. Undortunalty we have a “game” to compare it to. And games are more engaged as you play the character, so its naturally going to take on the players personality. They had to give Joel his own personality beyond what the gamer thinks or feels.

So of course some folks are gonna feel like the character is not correct. They all have preconceived notions of what it means….

I watch with people who do not game , and therefore have a much better view of the show, with nothing to compare it too. Same for the Walking Dead. The last season could have been a banger if the proper actors were still with the show, be alas they are not.

Everyone I watch with loves the show, and it seems the rating agree with that.

Gamers , and comic fans, and basically anyone who had consumed any media prior to a shows release will always be disappointed that it didnt match their personal cannon.

I remember how I felt seeing how they did Shanes death in TWD, and how much better the comic was….but you just go with it. One interpretation is diffferwnec than another.

Joel has his own personality and is a fully realized character in the game, you control him but it's not like The Witcher 3 or Mass Effect where the player can choose what he does or say and there's tons of character study videos on Joel on Youtube which accurately explain the type of person he was, he is and becomes and it's a beautiful but tragic arc, the show didn't give him a "personality" it was always there they simply changed it up for what they were going for with the show.

I do agree Shane was much better in the show but he was also only in less than 6 issues in the comics and had no impact on Rick's character, I actually loved the show when it was at it's peak and despite some questionable deviations I thought it did a lot of things better than the comic but sadly TWD just degraded in quality over time and I fell out of love with it, at least the comic had the dignity to actually end and not keep shambling along like, well, the walking dead.

That said The Last of Us has always been better to me than TWD and yes I'm incredibly biased because I think it's an already beautifully acted, shot, scored and raw story that nobody would've never seen in live action had it not been for the huge impact the game had on people who played it almost a decade ago, so for me as much as I want to separate it from the show it's just impossible to do it because I've shared a close bond with these characters for all these years and know them more intimately than Pascal and Bella's versions of the characters, in the end I don't really consider this an adaptation but a remake since The Last of Us was never a comic or a novel but a powerfully acted story just told through realistic CGI people, which I suppose is no different from Avatar or every Marvel movie these days but I certainly still feel more emotion watching these two than I do the show.

 

[choombaz]

A long, long time ago, some people felt Jaws the novel was better than the movie. Bah!

Really? The novel where Hooper has an affair with Brody’s wife?

Back to the topic at hand.

 

[Gipetto0812]

Honestly I did t think of it that way. I saw it as an urgency to save your adopted daughter from some crazy people. I didn’t feel any guilt nor did I care about them after they were suddenly about to kill Ellie. I just kinda rushed in. Now was it right? No. But screw those guys. They aren’t out to save the world. They will use a “cure” for their own personals gain. And screw that doctor ….

Yea that's basically how I felt at the end of the game.

 

[choombaz]

4K Ultra HD physical of this coming out on 7/18

 

[JAWS]

Overall I enjoyed it.

Felt short and a little pointless due to the two flashback episodes taking away from the relationship of the two main characters

I was happy to find out about Ellie’s bite but didn’t need it to be the full episode.

Took a 9 episode series and turned it into seven.

 

[Mondragon]

Not having played the game or read spoilers:
I had no problem with Joel wasting everyone to save the kid (humanities last hope or not), that was now his kid.

What felt off to me, was this same guy feeling he had to lie to her about it. That seemed (to me) like something he'd comfortably own up to if she asked; like: yeah I killed everyone last one of them, to save your punny ass.
It wasn't killing everyone, but lying about it, that made him seem weak and out of character to me.
Setting up for some forced dramatic wedge between them I guess?

Not sure how that is addressed or plays out in the game?

 

[Asta]

Not having played the game or read spoilers:
I had no problem with Joel wasting everyone to save the kid (humanities last hope or not), that was now his kid.

What felt off to me, was this same guy feeling he had to lie about it. That seemed (to me) like something he'd comfortably own up to if she asked; like: yeah I killed everyone last one of them, to save your punny ass.
Lying about it is made him seem weak.

Not sure how that is addressed or plays out in the game?

It's because he robbed Ellie of her choice. She wanted her life to mean something, and he took it away by rescuing her. So he lied in order to preserve their relationship. Whether or not she believed the lie is a story for another time Part 2.

 

[Mondragon]

Yeah, but they didn't give her a knowing choice (unless she knew she was going to die) .
And he'd own up to that.

Even then, lying about it made him seem like a coward.
If that's what they wanted, it worked.

 

[Asta]

Yeah, and he'd own up to that.

And risk losing her.

 

[Mondragon]

And risk losing her.

That's what he's doing by lying.

Yeah she hoped to be some "savior", it's what she wanted.
Yet he'd also heard her own visions what she imagined for her own future.
She had not decided to die there.
And she did not know the operation would kill her.
They intentionaly denied her that information.
Hence she was not given a choice.

It is Joel who was protecting her ability to choose. By keeping her alive.
Hence I had no problem him killing them.
And (again to me) that seemed like something he'd own up to, come what may between them.
Let her decide, what she thought of his decision, owned up, to work through and live with.
That (to me) seemed the honest relationship they built up, and had gotten to through their whole experience together.

Now him lying about it, seemed liked a different character, a weak coward. If that's what the writers wanted, it worked.

Again I have no problem with him killing everyone to protect her, just lying about it. No Idea how it's presented or plays out in the game.
In the TV show it seemed completely off, and out of character (to me), after the relationship they'd built.

 

[chrisstbh]

That's what he's doing by lying.

Yeah she hoped to be some "savior", it's what she wanted.
Yet he'd also heard her own visions what she imagined for her own future.
She had not decided to die there.
And she did not know the operation would kill her.
They intentionaly denied her that information.
Hence she was not given a choice.

It is Joel who was protecting her ability to choose. By keeping her alive.
Hence I had no problem him killing them.
And (again to me) that seemed like something he'd own up to, come what may between them.
That (to me) seemed the honest relationship they built up, and had gotten to through their whole experience together.

Now him lying about it, seemed liked a different character, a weak coward. If that's what the writers wanted, it worked.

Again I have no Idea how it's presented or plays out in the game.
In the TV show it seemed completely off, and out of character, after the relationship they'd built.

Lying or not their relationship is forever damaged.

 

[Asta]

That's what he's doing by lying.

Yeah she hoped to be some "savior", it's what she wanted.
Yet he'd also heard her own visions what she imagined for her own future.
She had not decided to die there.
And she did not know the operation would kill her.
They intentionaly denied her that information.
Hence she was not given a choice.

It is Joel who was protecting her ability to choose. By keeping her alive.
Hence I had no problem him killing them.
And (again to me) that seemed like something he'd own up to, come what may between them.
Let her decide, what she thought of his decision, owned up to and lived with that.
That (to me) seemed the honest relationship they built up, and had gotten to through their whole experience together.

Now him lying about it, seemed liked a different character, a weak coward. If that's what the writers wanted, it worked.

Again I have no problem with him killing everyone to protect her, just lying about it. No Idea how it's presented or plays out in the game.
In the TV show it seemed completely off, and out of character (to me), after the relationship they'd built.

It's faithful to the game.

I thought this was a fitting end. True to the spirit, and pretty much the letter, of the game.

Ellie expressed her determination to finish what she started. Joel came to the point where he couldn't bear to lose her, leading to violence in the name of love.

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Ellie's doubt:

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Joel's lie:

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Ellie's uneasy acceptance:

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Therein setting up the conflicts in TLOU2: violence in the name of hate.


It's all there.


If only there'd been more time spent between them in the series on the journey to that moment, rather than veering off into the lives of other characters.

 

[Mondragon]

More important is the establishing scene, where it's reveled to Joel, Ellie did not know she would be killed.

Marlene said - "We didn't tell her".

Ellie didn't know she was being killed in the operation, therefore Ellie was not given and did not make a knowing choice.
It's that simple.

Joel knows this, and her choice is what he's is rightfully protecting, hence I have no problem with him killing them to save her. That all rang true. So I don't get those condemning Joel for that.

And after everything they'd been through together, seemed (to me) he would own up to what he felt he had to do protect her. Letting her know what he did, and be able to decide for herself what she thought, and live with that. Seemed like what he'd want.
That, (to me) seemed the honest relationship they built up through their experience together. She knew him, and what she now meant to him, and would try and understand where he was coming from.
Joel lying about it, not owning up to it, doesn't allow her that, and is what seemed off (to me), making the charatcer Joel seem weak and cowardly.
Again (game or show) If that's what the writers wanted, it worked.