HBO: The Last of Us

[Jman101010]

It's because he robbed Ellie of her choice. She wanted her life to mean something, and he took it away by rescuing her. So he lied in order to preserve their relationship. Whether or not she believed the lie is a story for another time Part 2.

He didn't rob Ellie of her choice, the Fireflies did. They would've killed her without her consent and the only way Joel could prevent it was to go on a rampage. There was no waking Ellie up to make the choice herself.

And as to why Joel lied: He knew Ellie would be mad about not being able to make the choice and even though he probably knew that she would know he's lying, he didn't want her to be upset that they robbed her of that choice and that they lied to her. I think he felt bad about what he did to them, but at the same time, doesn't regret it and now that I think about it, he was protecting the Fireflies more so than himself. He knew that she'd figure out he lied and be mad at him eventually. Spoilers for Part II:

Spoiler

What frustrates me about Ellie in Part II is that she doesn't try to understand why Joel did what he did and Joel doesn't try to explain it to her in detail. He just lets her berate and hate him for it. If he explained it to her in detail, how there was no guarantee for a vaccine and explained just how bad what the Fireflies did was, she would've understood, but he never does this.

 

[Rayman]

Don't know why this just popped in my head, but it's making a lot of sense.

Druckmann wanted Part 1 (game) to be a revenge story with a female lead, at the time Tess. Somehow (whether it was Straley or the head honcho's) they go with the male lead (obviously Joel).

Part 1 becomes a monstrous success, critically and financially.

Stanley and Druckmann are put onto Uncharted 4 (against Straley's wishes, as he believed Amy Henig should still lead the series), because they are the "new best thing."

Straley leaves after Uncharted 4 as he apparently had an unpleasant time making it and decided he needed to have a sabbatical (no doubt Druckmann's ego was exploding by this time and he would have been an obnoxious **** to work with).

Druckmann gets promoted within Naughty Dog and leads Part 2 and finally gets to make his female lead, revenge game... (that completely divided the fanbase and sold less than half of the first).

So...

Was Joel's golfing incident, Druckmann's conscious (or subconscious) way of saying **** you, to Straley (and those that made the decision to make Part 1 a male lead)???

Which also leads to another thought... make Joel completely different in the tv show (anxiety, less aggressive and masculine, etc) and - as it turns out - now have a lot of people saying how much they dislike Joel (tv version) for making the decision he did (because in the game, the characters, their relationships and motivations were so well developed, NOBODY disked Joel and the decision he made. It's never been a conversation point ever, anywhere, before this last episode aired.

I wish I could put my goggles on so I could unsee what I see in that whole post.

 

[Asta]

"...my life would have ******* mattered..."

 

[ironwez20]

Yea see that’s the last of us 2 and it seemed like that game tried its hardest to destroy everything great about the first game. The opening cements this. That’s why nobody likes it. It takes away and pretty much destroys the bond they share. I find it silly how ever since that game came out there is a bit of people saying how Joel was wrong and the fireflies were these saints.

If you play through the game you realize the humans are worse than the infected. Humanity is to corrupted. There was no saving the world . That’s why the game is call the last of us. The last of us meaning people who still hold onto their humanity and have hope and still find happiness wherever they can.

The second game destroys everything that made the first so impactful.

 

[Asta]

That’s why nobody likes it.

Ahem.


I don't like arguing about the games because I know what they mean to me, and I also recognise their literary inspirations from my close association with them long ago.

TLOU2 doubled down on the experience because it hit me on a personal level.

So I'm going to bow out from any further discussion.

 

[Mandible]

Ahem.


I don't like arguing about the games because I know what they mean to me, and I also recognise their literary inspirations from my close association with them long ago.

TLOU2 doubled down on the experience because it hit me on a personal level.

So I'm going to bow out from any further discussion.

You were destined to save the world and it was robbed from you?!

 

[Rayman]

Yea see that’s the last of us 2 and it seemed like that game tried its hardest to destroy everything great about the first game. The opening cements this. That’s why nobody likes it. It takes away and pretty much destroys the bond they share. I find it silly how ever since that game came out there is a bit of people saying how Joel was wrong and the fireflies were these saints.

If you play through the game you realize the humans are worse than the infected. Humanity is to corrupted. There was no saving the world . That’s why the game is call the last of us. The last of us meaning people who still hold onto their humanity and have hope and still find happiness wherever they can.

The second game destroys everything that made the first so impactful.

We rationalize as spectators way more than a real person would under those circumstances, specially the huge PTSD one would suffer under the extreme situations Joel and Ellie went through.

Fireflies aren’t wrong nor right, neither is Ellie or Joel. Fireflies are idealists, not unlike many of the socialist and communist movements from the start of the 20th century. They were never painted as saints at all, whomever says that is as wrong as those who defend whatever Joel does.

Speaking about the real devil though… how is it that everyone seems to forget his own comments about what he’s done in the past? How is it that most people avoid thinking that what he was capable of doing to “save Ellie”, he could have done for any other reason? It’s implied both in the show and the game. Yet we forget. That is one of the things I like most about this story, how by giving you a narrative most get to forgive a monster. Makes up for a huge discussion.

Besides that… yes the fireflies are wrong morally in not giving Ellie a choice. But for eff’s sakes, are we really buying that Joel did what he did because it was the moral thing to do? Really? He’s obviously being selfish, Marlene plays her last role there to let us know and remember. Those “Joel was right” articles are baffling to me.

There is a reason for what happens in episode two. He stopped being a good guy the moment his daughter died. He gets to realize that by then.

Asta you are not the only one who liked Ep. 2. Cheers.

 

[Mandible]

I wish I could put my goggles on so I could unsee what I see in that whole pos

Should have guessed you'd like Part 2...
Probably The Last Jedi as well...
And Obi-Wan?

Maybe it's time to get a new pair of goggles?

 

[Mandible]

Asta you are not the only one who liked Ep. 2. Cheers.

Good to see there were two people that liked it then!

 

[Asta]

Should have guessed you'd like Part 2...
Probably The Last Jedi as well...
And Obi-Wan?

Maybe it's time to get a new pair of goggles?

Good to see there were two people that liked it then!

Don't forget the Code of Conduct:

Our first priority is to the members that have come here because of the flame-free atmosphere we provide. There is a zero-tolerance policy here against personal attacks. We will not tolerate anyone insulting others' opinions or name-calling.

The infraction for it is the most severe in the table, short of "Creating a new account while banned" and "Spammed Advertisements."

 

[Rayman]

Should have guessed you'd like Part 2...
Probably The Last Jedi as well...
And Obi-Wan?

Maybe it's time to get a new pair of goggles?

You did enjoy that bait didn’t you? Now we all see your true colors. No need for goggles.

 

[Space Jockey]

Personally I love the game. It's brutal, impactful storytelling. I've played many games over the years, and it's one of my favorites. It doesn't shy away from the tough questions and is not afraid to.

 

[ironwez20]

Ahem.


I don't like arguing about the games because I know what they mean to me, and I also recognise their literary inspirations from my close association with them long ago.

TLOU2 doubled down on the experience because it hit me on a personal level.

So I'm going to bow out from any further discussion.

We already had this discussion before. Again it destroys everything the first one set up. We just will agree to disagree

 

[ironwez20]

We rationalize as spectators way more than a real person would under those circumstances, specially the huge PTSD one would suffer under the extreme situations Joel and Ellie went through.

Fireflies aren’t wrong nor right, neither is Ellie or Joel. Fireflies are idealists, not unlike many of the socialist and communist movements from the start of the 20th century. They were never painted as saints at all, whomever says that is as wrong as those who defend whatever Joel does.

Speaking about the real devil though… how is it that everyone seems to forget his own comments about what he’s done in the past? How is it that most people avoid thinking that what he was capable of doing to “save Ellie”, he could have done for any other reason? It’s implied both in the show and the game. Yet we forget. That is one of the things I like most about this story, how by giving you a narrative most get to forgive a monster. Makes up for a huge discussion.

Besides that… yes the fireflies are wrong morally in not giving Ellie a choice. But for eff’s sakes, are we really buying that Joel did what he did because it was the moral thing to do? Really? He’s obviously being selfish, Marlene plays her last role there to let us know and remember. Those “Joel was right” articles are baffling to me.

There is a reason for what happens in episode two. He stopped being a good guy the moment his daughter died. He gets to realize that by then.

Asta you are not the only one who liked Ep. 2. Cheers.

Don’t see it that way but ok

 

[Jman101010]

View attachment 628659

"...my life would have ******* mattered..."

View attachment 628661

This proves my point. She doesn't understand the situation, because Joel didn't try to explain it to her much. There was no option to give her consent and she would've died without consenting if he didn't do what he did. Before the end, they were talking about what they would do in the future after this. She obviously didn't know and Joel wasn't going to let her die without consenting. She should be blaming the Fireflies. Also, I thought consent was all the rage these days lol.

 

[R_R_X]

More important is the establishing scene, where it's reveled to Joel, Ellie did not know she would be killed.

Marlene said - "We didn't tell her".

She didn't know she was being killed, therefore Ellie was not given and did not make a knowing choice.
It's that simple.

Joel knows this, and her choice is what he's is rightfully protecting, hence I have no problem with him killing them to save her. That all rang true. So I don't get those condemning Joel for that.
After everything they'd been through together, seemed he would own it.
Let her know what he did to save her, and be able to decide for herself what she thought, and live with that. Seemed like what he'd want.
That (to me) seemed the honest relationship they built up through their experience together. Cause she knew him, and would try and understand where he was coming from.

Him lying about it, doesn't allow her that, and is what seemed off (to me), suddenly seemed weak and like a coward.
Again (game or show) If that's what the writers wanted, it worked.

The reason she is angry at Joel is not because he saved her but because he completely eliminated the choice of a cure, he pretty much wiped out the fireflies who were really the only faction still researching a cure and also killed the only person who could've possibly made that cure and even though it's no explored that much I'm sure Ellie was also mourning Marlene whom Joel also killed.

The lie was him pretty much taking on the burden for her, he knew Marlene was right and that Ellie would've chosen to be sacrificed anyway so he lies to shield her from the fact the whole thing turned bloody and there will never be a cure after what happened, Ellie obviously suspects he's lying but she chooses to believe him because she doesn't want to believe he would betray her like that after everything they went through.

Spoiler

Of course it all comes to light later down the road and Ellie doesn't understand and lashes out at Joel for the decision he made because in her eyes her only purpose was to be sacrificed for a cure, she doesn't realize how much she means to those around her and how much they mean to her until tragedy strikes and it's after a torturous voyage where Ellie spills a lot of blood that she finally realizes and understands Joel's choice and makes peace with it.

 

[chrisstbh]

More important is the establishing scene, where it's reveled to Joel, Ellie did not know she would be killed.

Marlene said - "We didn't tell her".

Ellie didn't know she was being killed in the operation, therefore Ellie was not given and did not make a knowing choice.
It's that simple.

Joel knows this, and her choice is what he's is rightfully protecting, hence I have no problem with him killing them to save her. That all rang true. So I don't get those condemning Joel for that.

And after everything they'd been through together, seemed (to me) he would own up to what he felt he had to do protect her. Letting her know what he did, and be able to decide for herself what she thought, and live with that. Seemed like what he'd want.
That, (to me) seemed the honest relationship they built up through their experience together. She knew him, and what she now meant to him, and would try and understand where he was coming from.
Joel lying about it, not owning up to it, doesn't allow her that, and is what seemed off (to me), making the charatcer Joel seem weak and cowardly.
Again (game or show) If that's what the writers wanted, it worked.

Neither of them gave her a choice, that's the whole point.

It doesn't matter if he lies or tells her the truth, do you think she's gonna respond with "oh thanks for slaughtering all of those people including Marlene for me!". Joels choice completely destroyed their relationship no matter what he said to her, damage is done, actions have consequences.

 

[Jman101010]

Neither of them gave her a choice, that's the whole point.

It doesn't matter if he lies or tells her the truth, do you think she's gonna respond with "oh thanks for slaughtering all of those people including Marlene for me!". Joels choice completely destroyed their relationship no matter what he said to her, damage is done, actions have consequences.

This just isn't true. She doesn't have to be happy with his decision or thank him. She could've at least tried to listen and understand his perspective. If he gave a good explanation of what the Fireflies did to her and him, his options and the questions behind creating the vaccine and if she actually listened she could've at least understood his decision. She doesn't have to be happy about it or forgive him, but their relationship didn't have to be destroyed.

Also, the Fireflies didn't give Joel a choice let alone Ellie. They violated the code of ethics and didn't tell her what would happen and were flaking out on the deal with Joel. Not to mention, they were making plans for afterwards. As her surrogate Father, with that and this not even being a guarantee, there is no other option for him. Almost every Parent would probably do the same thing. Explain all of this to her and there's no reason for her not to at least understand.

 

[Space Jockey]

We need Georgia Dow on YouTube to get on and complete LofU pt2 stat, figure it out and explain it all to us! Lol
So Joel, tell me how you're feeling today? And you Ellie? And how about you, Abby, are you feeling violent today?

 

[chrisstbh]

This just isn't true. She doesn't have to be happy with his decision or thank him. She could've at least tried to listen and understand his perspective. If he gave a good explanation of what the Fireflies did to her and him, his options and the questions behind creating the vaccine and if she actually listened she could've at least understood his decision. She doesn't have to be happy about it or forgive him, but their relationship didn't have to be destroyed.

It did, because he destroyed it. Have you played or seen Part 2? Because the lie isn’t what she was most bothered by.

Also, the Fireflies didn't give Joel a choice let alone Ellie. They violated the code of ethics and didn't tell her what would happen and were flaking out on the deal with Joel. Not to mention, they were making plans for afterwards. As her surrogate Father, with that and this not even being a guarantee, there is no other option for him. Almost every Parent would probably do the same thing. Explain all of this to her and there's no reason for her not to at least understand.

His reason doesn’t matter. Both he and the Fireflies were wrong for different reasons.