HBO's Game of Thrones

[a-dev]

Robb failed to keep his oath made as King of the North. The outcome was not an over-reaction.

 

[TheFiend]

^ Yeah, really.



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[TheFiend]

Yeah, the lack of explanation and further developing of the "rule of hospitality" is my only major gripe with the show's potrayal of the Red Wedding (there are others, but those are mostly minor nitpics, having more to do with personal imagining of that particular scene). They had many occasions throughout the three seasons to flesh it out.

I see two reasons why that theme was important.

One - it would explain why Robb wasn't a fool to try and trust Walder. It explains why ultimately he led his guard down during the happy events of the wedding ceremony. Reading the comments from the fans who didn't read the novels, it seems like some of them think that Robb "had it coming".

Two - and this one is a bit more important in the long run. Without it, it changes the nature of the whole Red Wedding. In the show, what Walder did was simply a horrible, violent, brutal treachery. But in the books it was a little bit more than that. It represented the shredding of tradition. The law of hospitality was more than just a normal custom, it was considered a sacred rule, one that even mortal enemies, or people at war with each other, would never dare to break. To do so, would mean to be "condemned before the eyes of gods and men". Breaking the rule of hospitality in such a perfidious, horrible manner, showed that this war has got to the point were there are absolutely no rules at all, no things are hold sacred anymore, no pretense of respect is shown, and its so ugly that even the "traditions of warfare" that everyone before complied to while killing each other, are now worthless. It was one of the ways to show that the world is changing before our eyes, which is one of the recuuring themes of Martin's ASOIAF books.

The good news is that there is still a chance, that they will touch up on it later. The preview for the next episode showed Tyrion talking about the events of the wedding. Perhaps it will be a chance for the creators to put some exposition dialogue, that would further reflect on the meaning of what Walder did.

Agreed. I was thinking maybe have Cersei react to it in astonishment. Something like that will show just how devious and off the wall it was.
People always promise things and break them on this show, its not a big deal. This was different. I wish they would have left in the bit where Catelyn is advising Robb before they get there on how he should ask for bread and salt immediately upon arrival. Even the bread and salt thing itself has a deeper meaning if I'm remembering correctly.

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[TheFiend]

Oh and I got to check out the trailer for next week. I haven't Sen it yet.

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[Darth Vader]

I have to agree yes it was harsh but in our history, when people feel slighted they've done worse George R.R Martin said he based it loosely on the black dinner. A king in Scotland invited some royalty over for dinner while they were eating a black boar head statue fell onto the table so he killed everyone.

 

[TheFiend]

Harsh. Overreaction. I don't think these words adequately explain the Red Wedding.

I don't care what Robb did. Frey is a ****.

But really, Robb didn't pick the best allies. Not that he had much choice when he had to cross at the Twins but still.

Great company commander, terrible General.
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[bumblebee]

Robb failed to keep his oath made as King of the North. The outcome was not an over-reaction.

Didn't marry guys daughter.




Guy kills hundreds if not thousands.




Yeah no over reaction with that.

 

[bruhkis]

Robb failed to keep his oath made as King of the North. The outcome was not an over-reaction.

I beg to differ considering he was supposed to be under Frey's protection...Dudemake Robb's first born male marry one of his kids!

 

[pixletwin]

it was more than that. He broke a promise that would have made one of his daughters a Queen and his descendants kings and queens of the north.

 

[Buttmunch]

Its the point of the thing though. Robb made a sacred vow to Frey. He broke that. He's supposed to be King. If a King can't keep a simple promise like marrying a girl, then he can't be trusted. Frey was totally justified in siding with the Lannisters at that point and taking out their enemy. It was dirty trick to kill them after the guest right ceremony, but clearly Robb didn't care about that kind of stuff right? All's fair in love and war afterall.

And speaking earlier about how it was un-Ned like for Robb to break and oath like that so easily, how do we know Robb isn't really Jon Snow? They are about the same age right? And we still aren't certain Ned is Jon's father. Couldn't it be possible Ned switched Robb and Jon around when they were young in order to protect his real heir? Probably not likely, but it could example Robb's certain lack of honor his father had.

 

[lerath666]

A mother knows her own children usually. I think cat would notice.
Also, rob is older.

I have to agree yes it was harsh but in our history, when people feel slighted they've done worse George R.R Martin said he based it loosely on the black dinner. A king in Scotland invited some royalty over for dinner while they were eating a black boar head statue fell onto the table so he killed everyone.

You've got that a tad bit wrong. Scroll up a bit, and there are details of the black diner on this page.

 

[Dr Daystrom]

it was more than that. He broke a promise that would have made one of his daughters a Queen and his descendants kings and queens of the north.

And performing a treacherous act that will destroy House Frey's reputation for generations to come with the other noble houses will somehow "fix" that?

Not many are going to see it this way, but there's some reason to feel just a tiny bit sorry for Walder Frey. The Lannisters and Bolton manipulated a prideful, angry and venomous old man into committing an atrocity that will serve them well enough, but in the end the Freys are going to pay a very high cost for the brief "satisfaction".

 

[JosephCPR]

... Couldn't it be possible Ned switched Robb and Jon around when they were young in order to protect his real heir? Probably not likely, but it could example Robb's certain lack of honor his father had.

That makes no sense to me. You think honor is inherited though blood?

 

[Buttmunch]

That makes no sense to me. You think honor is inherited though blood?

In Fantasy, anything is possible

 

[pixletwin]

And performing a treacherous act that will destroy House Frey's reputation for generations to come with the other noble houses will somehow "fix" that?

I never said it would "fix" anything.

 

[TheFiend]

Just watched the trailer for next week. Looks like the next episode picks up right after the RW. That's cool. I liked how the episode after Ned Stark was arrested picked up directly after those events. Little things that weren't in the books like seeing the Stark household gaurds being killed etc.

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[DPrime]

I knew something was going to go down, because everyone has been talking about this big event in GOT. Usually I get things spoiled for me. I was NOT prepared for this. It's without a doubt the most sad, disturbing, gut wrenching tv I have ever seen. I barely slept last night thinking about it and the scene keeps playing over in my mind today. What an incredible piece of writing and acting for it to be able to do that. I've become desensitized by tv violence but it's good to know that I am still human.

Agreed.

I felt the same way, and had read the book. My wife watched it with me - and by the way, she is PREGNANT! So that part hit us both pretty hard. And she hadn't read the books so had no idea what was coming.

I put on an episode of the Office afterward to lighten the mood (we were just about to go to sleep!).

 

[Kamandi]

And speaking earlier about how it was un-Ned like for Robb to break and oath like that so easily, how do we know Robb isn't really Jon Snow? They are about the same age right? And we still aren't certain Ned is Jon's father. Couldn't it be possible Ned switched Robb and Jon around when they were young in order to protect his real heir? Probably not likely, but it could example Robb's certain lack of honor his father had.

An interesting idea but that's a helluva thing for both Ned and Cat to take to the grave. Just to take it a step, wouldn't Cat need to tell Jon Snow that he has no business leading an army, and recall Robb from the Wall where Ned sent him to be "safe"?

No, if such a plan were made by Ned and Cat there would be a point at which Robb and Jon would need to be told and that would have been reached long ago.

 

[Dr Daystrom]

An interesting idea but that's a helluva thing for both Ned and Cat to take to the grave. Just to take it a step, wouldn't Cat need to tell Jon Snow that he has no business leading an army, and recall Robb from the Wall where Ned sent him to be "safe"?

No, if such a plan were made by Ned and Cat there would be a point at which Robb and Jon would need to be told and that would have been reached long ago.

Add to that the fact this whole concept implies some sort of prescience on Ned Stark's part

At the time Ned returned to Winterfell, after Robert's Rebellion, he was in a very good position. The Mad King was overthrown, peace had been restored, and his best friend was on the Iron Throne, and he was regarded as a hero by most of the North and many elsewhere. Where exactly is the motivation for playing musical chairs with the infants?

I tend to think if Eddard Stark had the power to predict the future, he would have passed on taking that job in King's Landing?

Not so much an issue in the series, but in the books it's clear Robb also heavily favored the Tully side of his parentage in appearance with Red-Brown hair, whereas Jon Snow's was dark. Not an easy switch to pass off.

Then there's the relationship between Jon and Cat. She DESPISED the boy. If it was really her son, clearly no one let her in on it...

This to me sounds like traditional fantasy novel wish fulfillment being stretched to the max "The REAL Robb just can't be dead, because he HAS to avenge his father"


Also:

As pointed out previously the concept of "honor" being some genetic inheritance is dubious if not downright laughable... but even taking that as accurate for the sake of arguement, the "Robb wasn't honorable enough so Jon must be the real Robb" idea really takes some hits when looking at Jon's honor:

At Craster's Keep he disobeys the Lord Commander of the Watch repeatedly, someone he is sworn to obey.

He kills the Halfhand, and takes up with Ygritte, against his sworn vows (I don't really picture Eddard boinking some chick just to fit in).

He lies about his true intentions repeatedly to the Wildlings

Jon while doing these things for perhaps rational reasons, can't really claim the moral high ground over Robb, who honestly was mainly guilty of "letting the little head do the thinking for the big head"

 

[youbastards]

how do we know Robb isn't really Jon Snow? They are about the same age right? And we still aren't certain Ned is Jon's father. Couldn't it be possible Ned switched Robb and Jon around when they were young in order to protect his real heir?

Robb was born while Ned was at war, so Catlyn would have had MUCH alone time with a newborn, enough to know who was who.