HBO's Game of Thrones

[Entropy]

It doesn't matter what I think though.

 

[316what]

See below.

^ Yeah, really.



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See below.

Harsh. Overreaction. I don't think these words adequately explain the Red Wedding.

I don't care what Robb did. Frey is a ****.

But really, Robb didn't pick the best allies. Not that he had much choice when he had to cross at the Twins but still.

Great company commander, terrible General.
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See below.

Didn't marry guys daughter.

Guy kills hundreds if not thousands.

Yeah no over reaction with that.

In the context of our society, yes it would be considered harsh. In the context of the show's/book's society(ies), it is justifiable.

A king (even if self professed) made an oath, especially one involving the crowning of a queen, and then breaks this oath, it is an ultimate insult to the family lied to. Without retribution, the family name is forever tarnished. When Robb tries to apologize, Frey even makes mention that the make up wedding will not produce a queen.

Now the way Frey went about it, feigning the guise of protection according to customs, will also tarnish the family legacy because he broke an agreed upon custom.

it was more than that. He broke a promise that would have made one of his daughters a Queen and his descendants kings and queens of the north.

Yay, someone else that understands.

Its the point of the thing though. Robb made a sacred vow to Frey. He broke that. He's supposed to be King. If a King can't keep a simple promise like marrying a girl, then he can't be trusted. Frey was totally justified in siding with the Lannisters at that point and taking out their enemy. It was dirty trick to kill them after the guest right ceremony, but clearly Robb didn't care about that kind of stuff right? All's fair in love and war afterall.

Thanks for explaining it better than I did.

 

[lerath666]

I THINK the thing that people are missing is this.

The Red wedding was not JUST Frey "getting even".

Were that the case, then YES, it might be seen as an overreaction.


Robb betrayed Frey, so in secret, Frey went over to side with the Lanisters. The Lannisters, who are ALREADY at war with The Starks, want Robb, Catlyn, and the whole of Robb's army dead.

Frey, with the Help of Tywin, then orchistrates the Trap that Is the Red wedding. Which leads to the end of Robb Starks Rebellion.

So no, it's not an overreaction.

Stark Betrayed Frey, so in response, Frey switched sides in the war.

When that Happened, Robb stark became an enemy soldier.

 

[DinoDB1975]

Reminds me of Jaime Lannister talking about how the oaths he took as a knight and the oaths he took as a Kingsguard contradicted each other (paraphrasing, "You take an oath to defend the weak but what if you're king orders you to slaughter the weak?").

Sure, Robb Stark broke his oath to wed one of the Freys. But unless I'm mistaken, wasn't it established in season one that Walder Frey was a bannerman to Ned Stark, his "liege lord"? I seem to remember Catelynn Stark saying that "some men take their oaths more seriously than others" in reference to Walder Stark.

At that point, who's oath is more serious?

Yes, the Red Wedding was not simply Walder Frey getting even...but he could have declared himself on the Lannister's side, and rode out and met the Stark forces on the field of battle along with the Lannister forces. Instead, he broke his oath as a banner man to the Starks, as well as the long standing oath of a host.

The trailer for next week's episode showed Tyrion saying "The northerners will never forget", and I hope that the Freys will soon meet the same fate that the Reynes did.

 

[Kibagami]

Reminds me of Jaime Lannister talking about how the oaths he took as a knight and the oaths he took as a Kingsguard contradicted each other (paraphrasing, "You take an oath to defend the weak but what if you're king orders you to slaughter the weak?").

Sure, Robb Stark broke his oath to wed one of the Freys. But unless I'm mistaken, wasn't it established in season one that Walder Frey was a bannerman to Ned Stark, his "liege lord"? I seem to remember Catelynn Stark saying that "some men take their oaths more seriously than others" in reference to Walder Stark.

At that point, who's oath is more serious?

Yes, the Red Wedding was not simply Walder Frey getting even...but he could have declared himself on the Lannister's side, and rode out and met the Stark forces on the field of battle along with the Lannister forces. Instead, he broke his oath as a banner man to the Starks, as well as the long standing oath of a host.

The trailer for next week's episode showed Tyrion saying "The northerners will never forget", and I hope that the Freys will soon meet the same fate that the Reynes did.

Killing Robb sealed the deal with the Lannisters. They could ride off with 'em to war but that doesn't mean nothing.

And old man Walder doesn't look like the scrupulous type.

 

[siquisiri]

It seemed more than just revenge for not marrying his daughter, the last scene where Roose Bolton stabs Robb, he says something to the effect that this is from the Lanisters.

 

[DinoDB1975]

"The Lannisters send their regards" is what Roose Bolton says.

Speaking of Bolton, it was interesting for me as a non-book reader to find out in that episode that the Bolton was related to Wlader Frey via marriage.

He also showed his unscrupulous mercenary side by marrying the heaviest Frey daughter so he could get the largest dowry he could.

 

[Dr Daystrom]

Reminds me of Jaime Lannister talking about how the oaths he took as a knight and the oaths he took as a Kingsguard contradicted each other (paraphrasing, "You take an oath to defend the weak but what if you're king orders you to slaughter the weak?").

Sure, Robb Stark broke his oath to wed one of the Freys. But unless I'm mistaken, wasn't it established in season one that Walder Frey was a bannerman to Ned Stark, his "liege lord"? I seem to remember Catelynn Stark saying that "some men take their oaths more seriously than others" in reference to Walder Stark.

At that point, who's oath is more serious?

Yes, the Red Wedding was not simply Walder Frey getting even...but he could have declared himself on the Lannister's side, and rode out and met the Stark forces on the field of battle along with the Lannister forces. Instead, he broke his oath as a banner man to the Starks, as well as the long standing oath of a host.

The trailer for next week's episode showed Tyrion saying "The northerners will never forget", and I hope that the Freys will soon meet the same fate that the Reynes did.

Not quite correct: The Freys are bannermen of the Tullys (Catelyn's family), but your overall point is valid, he did act in a way his liege lord would not have approved (i.e. murdering Edmure Tully's sister and nephew)

 

[DinoDB1975]

Thanks for clarification, I was actually thinking it was the Tullys after I posted. I was thinking more about that scene I referenced and I believe Catelyn was talkinga bout a battle in which the Freys appeared after teh battle had been decided, thus her comment that some "men take their oaths more seriously than others".

Not sure if any of you have been reading these, but Grantland has been publishing episode synopses / opinions for this season. Pretty good reading.

Link to the most recent one:

https://www.grantland.com/blog/holl...-episode-9-its-like-rains-on-your-wedding-day

A passage from said article:

That's probably why the real winners in Westeros were revealed yet again to be those who already possess power, not those scrabbling to claim it. Tywin Lannister and the decidedly Palpatine-y Walder Frey are fathers-in-law from hell, deeply cruel conservatives who will do anything to maintain the status quo. They'll stop at nothing to crush a rebellion or silence a threat, no matter how barbaric. Years have taught them that this Game of Thrones isn't really a game at all; once you start playing with your enemy instead of destroying him, you've already lost. It's why Frey will sacrifice daughters and wives in pursuit of a controllable son, why Tywin will use his own children the way an interior designer uses shims. In Westeros, a family isn't something to love, it's something to plug up the holes in the world, a tool you use for balance to keep yourself upright and everything else from falling over.

 

[Dr Daystrom]

Thanks for clarification, I was actually thinking it was the Tullys after I posted. I was thinking more about that scene I referenced and I believe Catelyn was talkinga bout a battle in which the Freys appeared after teh battle had been decided, thus her comment that some "men take their oaths more seriously than others".

Your recollection is correct.

The Tullys summoned their bannermen during Robert's Rebellion to fight alongside the Baratheon and Stark contingents, but the Freys never appeared until the victory in the war was already a foregone conclusion.

This lead to Catelyn's father Hoster Tully dubbing Walder Frey: The "late" Walder Frey.

 

[FrodoEyes]

I'm convinced now that

Spoiler

lady stoneheart

will be the last scene this week.
In the book it's at the end, but waiting a year to show that will be no good to viewers who need

Spoiler

some consolation and hope after the Red Wedding.

Besides,

Spoiler

the revival happens 3 days after the RW, it would seem too long to wait a year and another season. Apparently Beric and the brotherhood are due to be in one more episode, and this would close Berics story arc in one season. It only needs to be Arya's wolf dream of dragging her body onto the bank and having Beric perform the kiss, and have the credits roll as she rises. The hanging parts can come next season.

 

[Something Sexy]

I am 50/50 on whether that happens or not. It would be ****ing awesome if it does but I feel like they will save it for next season, maybe not the end but something to wow the audiences with early on.

 

[rushmore223]

I'm convinced now that

Spoiler

lady stoneheart

will be the last scene this week.
In the book it's at the end, but waiting a year to show that will be no good to viewers who need

Spoiler

some consolation and hope after the Red Wedding.

You could be right, but I'm not counting on it.

My guess is (and it's just a guess)

Spoiler

We may be saying goodbye to Ygritte on Sunday. The attack on Castle Black (1st one) seems like a lot to happen in one episode, but I dont see them waitng til next Season to kill her character, as that is the only scene she has left, at least in the books.

 

[Something Sexy]

You could be right, but I'm not counting on it.

My guess is (and it's just a guess)

Spoiler

We may be saying goodbye to Ygritte on Sunday. The attack on Castle Black (1st one) seems like a lot to happen in one episode, but I dont see them waitng til next Season to kill her character, as that istheonly cene she has left, at least in the books.

Spoiler

Hmmm, I could see them waiting to kill her off until next season mainly because they just offed Robb and Cat, they don't want to kill off yet another character that is just going to continue to destroy the emotions of some people. There will be some HOPE in the finale, I just don't know what form it will be in.

 

[Invictus Sol]

I'm convinced now that

Spoiler

lady stoneheart

will be the last scene this week.
In the book it's at the end, but waiting a year to show that will be no good to viewers who need

Spoiler

some consolation and hope after the Red Wedding.

Hope that's the case! Am definitely looking forward to that introduction. I've read a bit on Wikipedia but am unclear on a couple things (don't open if you don't want to know some events from I'm guessing next season)...

Spoiler

I've read that when she's brought back, her personality has changed a lot and she's no longer the Catelyn that we're familiar with. I know Beric Dondarrion said that every time he's brought back, he feels like he's a little less, but he still seems to have essentially the same personality. Wondering why Cat comes back so ruthless that if I read correctly she's OK with hanging Brienne for disloyalty (not killing Jaime Lannister, I think). Hope they go into why she's not the same (but just angry and out for revenge) as opposed to what sounds a little like a different character.

Also, Beric's wounds were instantly healed when he comes back, whereas Lady Stoneheart's throat remains slit (which would seem to make her undead, as opposed to alive, like Beric). Any explanation from the books on that?

 

[rushmore223]

Hope that's the case! Am definitely looking forward to that introduction. I've read a bit on Wikipedia but am unclear on a couple things (don't open if you don't want to know some events from I'm guessing next season)...

Spoiler

I've read that when she's brought back, her personality has changed a lot and she's no longer the Catelyn that we're familiar with. I know Beric Dondarrion said that every time he's brought back, he feels like he's a little less, but he still seems to have essentially the same personality. Wondering why Cat comes back so ruthless that if I read correctly she's OK with hanging Brienne for disloyalty (not killing Jaime Lannister, I think). Hope they go into why she's not the same (but just angry and out for revenge) as opposed to what sounds a little like a different character.

Also, Beric's wounds were instantly healed when he comes back, whereas Lady Stoneheart's throat remains slit (which would seem to make her undead, as opposed to alive, like Beric). Any explanation from the books on that?

Spoiler

When I read the books, my assumption was that it had to do with how long the time span was between her dying and being brought back

Could be wrong though

 

[DarthDiggler]

I think the worst part about the season ending this Sunday is the long wait until Season 4.

The Red Wedding is really only the beginning of the new direction the story takes. I hope those show-only viewers disheartened by the events of last week's show stick with it.

Some epic stuff is on the horizon.

 

[Deckard]

Don't forget that

Spoiler

Cat coming back means Beric's death as well. Personally I've come to love his character.

 

[Invictus Sol]

Spoiler

When I read the books, my assumption was that it had to do with how long the time span was between her dying and being brought back

Could be wrong though

Spoiler

Yep, that was my initial guess, too. The differences still nag at me a bit (especially the undead thing), but really looking forward to watching the character.

Don't forget that

Spoiler

Cat coming back means Beric's death as well. Personally I've come to love his character.

Spoiler

Ah, hadn't realized that or maybe I forgot it. I guess because she takes over the Brotherhood? That is a shame, as I really liked him, too. I've have to go hit up Wikipedia again, sounds like.

 

[Deckard]

Beric's arm healed quickly from where the Hound sliced him but he may still have a massive scar there as he does around his neck and he's missing an eye.

Spoiler

Cat is pulled from a river after several days I think, which would definately change your appearance.