HBO's Game of Thrones

[a-dev]

Heartbroken for Myrcella and Jamie. But he does seems a bit out of character... I don't find his character arc very believable, he's just changed too much.

Yeah I have trouble with Jamie's arc. I really like the chap at this stage and I'm not sure I should - in the earlier seasons he pushed a child to what was almost certain death, aided in the imprisonment of Ned Stark, murdered a young cousin (?) in order to try to escape captivity and perhaps other things I've forgotten. Also his incest with his sister, although that's more 'freaky' than evil. Apart from having sex with his sister I can't see him doing those other things now.
It might be one thing if he did all that bad stuff as a child or a teenager but it's quite another that he did them all as an adult man. Seems like he ought to be exactly the same adult man now, prone to behaving in that same way.

I think we discussed this in here before but I can't remember the outcome.

 

[wanderlai]

Initially I thought it was for assistance with both the weather and the attack on Winterfell, but yeah, must've been just for the weather to lift. On one hand, they'd likely have all starved without the intervention, but it still seems a poor trade for having to off your own daughter. I don't get how he anticipated a successful siege even before half his men slunk off.

If it was just to clear the snow that's a terrible "trade". I was thinking he'd get another demon spirit thing or some other magical force to knock the gate down. He didn't stand a chance in a field battle without help. Stannis came off much more of a tactician verses making a dumb move.

 

[Deeznutz6]

Totally agree, there's just seems to be way to much left unanswered about Jon and his heritage , along with the witch coming back is just to much of a coincidence

Some one at my office mentioned that the focus on his blood was to show he has" royal" blood

 

[karamazov80]

Yeah I have trouble with Jamie's arc. I really like the chap at this stage and I'm not sure I should - in the earlier seasons he pushed a child to what was almost certain death, aided in the imprisonment of Ned Stark, murdered a young cousin (?) in order to try to escape captivity and perhaps other things I've forgotten. Also his incest with his sister, although that's more 'freaky' than evil. Apart from having sex with his sister I can't see him doing those other things now.
It might be one thing if he did all that bad stuff as a child or a teenager but it's quite another that he did them all as an adult man. Seems like he ought to be exactly the same adult man now, prone to behaving in that same way.

I think we discussed this in here before but I can't remember the outcome.

I was making a similar comment earlier, and definitely don't see Jaimie's change as an "evolution" so much as a fundamental shift, without much of a justification for it. I had forgotten about him murdering his cousin or whatever, which is totally heinous now that I recall it. He's like a lovable, do-gooder, teddy bear now. Whereas before, there was always a hint of danger and unpredictability surrounding him. He was always charismatic, but he was not a good guy until recently. Did Brienne really have this strong of an influence on him?

 

[SwedishHeat]

I was making a similar comment earlier, and definitely don't see Jaimie's change as an "evolution" so much as a fundamental shift, without much of a justification for it. I had forgotten about him murdering his cousin or whatever, which is totally heinous now that I recall it. He's like a lovable, do-gooder, teddy bear now. Whereas before, there was always a hint of danger and unpredictability surrounding him. He was always charismatic, but he was not a good guy until recently. Did Brienne really have this strong of an influence on him?

He really switched when his hand was cut off. Nobody had really done anything bad to him before, so now he knows what it feels like.

There's an story in the book that Cersei and Jamie were born with him clutching her foot, so when he got his hand cut off, he lost that link with Cersei, so her "evil-ness" left him. Those bad things he did were all just to protect Cersei, but once she rebuffed him when he came back, he just kinda gave up on her and became his own man.

 

[saintsyn]

JohnBoy by K West, on Flickr

 

[bruhkis]

He really switched when his hand was cut off. Nobody had really done anything bad to him before, so now he knows what it feels like.

There's an story in the book that Cersei and Jamie were born with him clutching her foot, so when he got his hand cut off, he lost that link with Cersei, so her "evil-ness" left him. Those bad things he did were all just to protect Cersei, but once she rebuffed him when he came back, he just kinda gave up on her and became his own man.

Thats a good theory...I always felt that him losing his hand wounded him in more ways than one. He became vulnerable and handicapped and probably saw tyrion in more of a different light. With him being a little person and then briene being a strong woman but ridiculed cuz of her sex. Although, would he kill him Tyrion if he saw him again like he says?

 

[EVILFACE]

I was making a similar comment earlier, and definitely don't see Jaimie's change as an "evolution" so much as a fundamental shift, without much of a justification for it. I had forgotten about him murdering his cousin or whatever, which is totally heinous now that I recall it. He's like a lovable, do-gooder, teddy bear now. Whereas before, there was always a hint of danger and unpredictability surrounding him. He was always charismatic, but he was not a good guy until recently. Did Brienne really have this strong of an influence on him?

I'd say 20% Brienne and 80% losing his hand. His skill let him be a smug bad ass. And now he has no skill.

 

[karamazov80]

Logically, I can understand that. But knowing human behavior as I do, it's still hard for me to accept as believable. We have well entrenched personalities, and even a major trauma like that wouldn't have that significant an affect on someone IMO. That combined with Cercei's treatment to him is a double whammy though--his primary skill and the person he cares much about in the world both abandoning him at once. That could change someone, but to make him this friendly do-gooder? It then comes back to Brienne's friendship I guess, as the new thing he is exposed to that gives him a new perspective on life. Still seems artificial, but I can better understand what Martin must have been doing there. Theon similarly undergoes a sea change in personality, but it's easier for me to buy because he was basically brainwashed.

 

[Xenoburger_]

Jaime had favorite character potential back in S1 and S2. I haven't cared for him much since he was neutered. I miss his long, glorious golden Lannister hair and Kingsguard armor, along with his ******* attitude.

 

[a-dev]

I was making a similar comment earlier, and definitely don't see Jaimie's change as an "evolution" so much as a fundamental shift, without much of a justification for it. I had forgotten about him murdering his cousin or whatever, which is totally heinous now that I recall it. He's like a lovable, do-gooder, teddy bear now. Whereas before, there was always a hint of danger and unpredictability surrounding him. He was always charismatic, but he was not a good guy until recently. Did Brienne really have this strong of an influence on him?

A further question is should all be forgiven now that he is good? Realistically a person wouldn't be forgiven for doing the things he did. It reminds of Darth Vader who, if you count the prequels as canon personally murdered children, and who stood by as an entire planet was wiped out in A New Hope. Now, if you scale that back to a more reality-based level what real-life person does he become comparable to and was that person ever thought of as redeemable. I would expect not.

He really switched when his hand was cut off. Nobody had really done anything bad to him before, so now he knows what it feels like.

There's an story in the book that Cersei and Jamie were born with him clutching her foot, so when he got his hand cut off, he lost that link with Cersei, so her "evil-ness" left him. Those bad things he did were all just to protect Cersei, but once she rebuffed him when he came back, he just kinda gave up on her and became his own man.

Very interesting. This being a fantasy show perhaps we are meant to take that quite literally and believe it as a real phenomenon. But if so, it would help if the show itself actually addresses it.

 

[karamazov80]

I definitely do not think Jaimie should be forgiven. He deserves to be paralyzed or killed for what he did to Bran alone But the audience is made to root for him as time goes on and earlier events fade from memory. Similar thing happened with Stannis earlier this season, as the audience was made to support and have sympathy for him, despite past transgressions. Certainly I don't think Vader deserved to be forgiven for all that he did, though I suppose that's not the Force/Christian (?) way to think of it or whatever, where you are forgiven for whatever you did so long as you genuinely feel bad about it and do something to repent I guess. He didn't destroy Alderaan, but he stood by idly while it happened. And he killed a lot of people and made many more suffer in his pursuit of the Dark Side/devil worship (?)

 

[Invictus Sol]

Well, Jaime killed the mad king out of compassion for the segments of the city he was going to immolate, so he's always had some 'good' in him. Character arc may not br 100% believable or likely in real life, but for the purposes of the story, it's fine.

 

[EVILFACE]

Yea I liked cocky Jamie. Was so pissed when that soldier robbed us of a Jamie vs Ned winner.

I still like him. I like his buddy Bronn more. And his new girlfriend...

 

[Sweet Rabbit]

I like Bronn

 

[a-dev]

You all condemn Bronn to death with your words.

 

[karamazov80]

I'm sure Bronn would say, "**** Bronn," and I concur

Well, Jaime killed the mad king out of compassion for the segments of the city he was going to immolate, so he's always had some 'good' in him. Character arc may not br 100% believable or likely in real life, but for the purposes of the story, it's fine.

I'm not so sure about that, either. The Mad King was totally unpredictable at that point, and could as easily have decided to kill Cersei, Jaimie, or any of their kids. Any apparent compassion could have been a side effect of his act of self preservation. Of course, that probably isn't the whole story, but the way he talks with Ned about that makes it seem as if at least some the "good" that came out of it (helping to preserve the lives of other Starks in that case) was certainly not the motivating factor.

 

[EVILFACE]

You all condemn Bronn to death with your words.

Already knocked off Jon Snow. They kill off Bronn....fauk this show.

 

[karamazov80]

Bronn > Jon Snow

 

[Invictus Sol]

I'm sure Bronn would say, "**** Bronn," and I concur


I'm not so sure about that, either. The Mad King was totally unpredictable at that point, and could as easily have decided to kill Cersei, Jaimie, or any of their kids. Any apparent compassion could have been a side effect of his act of self preservation. Of course, that probably isn't the whole story, but the way he talks with Ned about that makes it seem as if at least some the "good" that came out of it (helping to preserve the lives of other Starks in that case) was certainly not the motivating factor.

He had a front on with Stark during that convo, whereas he revealed the 'truth' to Brienne at Harrenhal when they were recovering. It was more or less a selfless act, as it's recounted in the show and books. But since he was reviled for it, anyway, maybe he felt afterwards entitled to act a certain way or take his frustrations out on others. Don't really care, though. From what I can tell, that's the intent of him revealing that info and trying to reinterpret it some other way just isn't interesting to me. He's a good guy now without any artiface, so it is what it is.