1/6 Hot Toys 60's Batman figures!

[DiFabio]

No, I don't think the Willis sculpt is bad at all, I never said that. All one has to do is see the little Bruce Willis smirk to know who it is. I actually dig it.

But as soon as you look at it's unnaturally a "Hot Toys sculpt". I know that's silly because it IS made by them, so it's sort of hard to explain. The eyes (in some cases the PERS), the skin textures, the crappy new neck posts, they just all look the same to me now.

 

[Mike86]

What makes Forever better than Batman Returns? Just curious.


Forever is alright to me, I dug it when it first came out. It doesn't hold a candle to the first two Burton flicks or the first two Nolan flicks though. It's sort of just there. I remember liking the hype, promotion and advertising of it more than the actual movie.

I just really, really, really hate Batman Returns. It's such a piece of trash that I honestly don't even understand why so many people like it. I've ranted about it enough in the thread about Hot Toys figures (only reason I go in there is out of wanting a Keaton Batman and I do slightly prefer the Batman Returns suit).

I think the biggest problem with Batman Returns is that Tim Burton was given full control over the film rather than having Warner kind of monitoring him. I'm convinced that's why Batman (1989) is a better film even though both were done by him. Tim Burton cranked up the weirdness/goth factor so much in this film it was ridiculous. It's just a Tim Burton freakshow movie not a Batman movie. It just happens to have versions of Batman characters in it.

DeVito's Penguin is one of the worst adapted characters of all time if you ask me. Penguin in the comics is a person who is slightly deformed and has a big nose and was also picked on as a kid in school and an affliction for birds. He was never some sewer freak. On top of that we have one of the stupidest storylines in Penguin running for mayor. Yes, I realize that it's happened in the comics, but the comics he also was a smart businessman type character so it actually made some sense. This version of the character has lived in the sewer his entire life, has no education, and is grotesque looking but is suddenly accepted by the people of Gotham as a viable candidate for mayor because he saves the mayor's baby? Now granted it is a comic movie but even so, the people of Gotham must have been a bunch of idiots to actually rally behind him. To me that entire storyline would have made so much more sense had it been Shreck running for mayor with Penguin pulling the strings rather than the opposite way around.

Not to mention the sequence where Penguin takes over the Batmobile is pretty ridiculous too. For one, where in the hell did he acquire the blueprints to the vehicle? I guess he just magically found them. Then there's the whole scene with Penguin bouncing in his toy Batmobile (again he got this where exactly?) so stupid. Then of course you have the penguin army. Penguins with rockets attached to their backs, but wait Batman has a way to stop that because conveniently he has a radar that detects penguins and can steer them away.

Catwoman's origin is pretty stupid too. She gets pushed out of a high window and is brought back to life by cats and suddenly has supernatural powers and nine lives. Yeah she's hot but really that's about all she provides in her role in this film.

Also Batman barely is in his own movie. The film essentially focuses more on Penguin, Catwoman, Shreck, and seemingly just about anyone who isn't Batman or Bruce. This was a big problem for me in both the Burton films really but it seemed more prominent in this film. Say what you will about Batman Forever and believe me I don't think it's a perfect film, but it did a way better job than any of the Batman films that came before it on focusing on the psychology behind Batman/Bruce Wayne and he actually seemed, you know important in his own movie.

Other nitpicks I have, the opening of the film with Bruce just brooding in his office apparently waiting for trouble was kind of dumb. Not to mention that he has a bunch of Bat signals that shine right into his home, not obvious at all if anyone ever saw or anything. I could also mention Batman killing people pretty blatantly a lot of the time but he has done that in other Batman films so I can't entirely fault only this film for doing that.

 

[Wake]

No, I don't think the Willis sculpt is bad at all I never said that. All one has to do is see the little Bruce Willis smirk to know who it is.

But as soon as you look at it's unnaturally a "Hot Toys sculpt". I know that's silly because it IS made by them, it's sort of hard to explain. The eyes (in some cases the PERS), the skin textures, the crappy new neck posts, they just all look the same.

I would agree with you on a few of those recent releases, but ultimately all you have to do is look at everything else in the mass produced 1/6 world to see just how superior HT really is. Im no HT fan boy, i spend a lot more of my time over in the customs section. in fact the same stylistic traits are true of any artist. Don't most of Rainman's sculpts or Rocco's for that matter have an identifiable quality to htem?

 

[DiFabio]

Mike, do you like/love TDKR at all?

Alot of those criticisms you have for Returns could easily be used for Rises too ironically.

Rises is Nolan at full control AND cranked up with his own unique "style" (instead of Burton's love of black and white and sympathetic monsters, we get guys in suits, Howard Hughes biopics and all that other stuff Nolan is known for EXCEPT the Batman aspect?

Devito Penguin a sewer freak that isn't adapted properly? How about Bane? He's a sewer freak too and NOTHING like his comic counterpart in looks, ideals or motivation. The only thing similar is having him break Batman's back and being from a prison. Penguin had that superficial quality too with his monocle, "birth rite" and his fake "sophistication" to win the hearts of Gotham. If Penguin is one of the worst adapted characters of all time, then Bane must certainly be up there for you.

I don't remember Bane spewing mumbling nonsense in any of his stories, except maybe Batman and Robin.



Ridiculous plot? How about all that crazy crap with the magical leg brace, the stock market, the "clean slate" device that doesn't exist . . . but does, or ALL of the police getting trapped for 5 months, or the nuclear bomb Macguffin itself! TDKR is crazy over the top.


Catwoman? The Returns Catwoman has way more depth than anything we see in Rises, which is a pity. They didn't even scratch the surface with their Selina. Atleast the Returns Catwoman was a fully developed character that wasn't used as a cardboard plot device to move the story and have the Batman character retire. She was her own character with her own dilemmas and psychology.



Batman is barely in Batman Returns? HA, Batman is shown more in Returns than he is in Rises. Waaay more. Batman isn't on screen for almost an hour in TDKR. Then after his first appearance he's shown twice, maybe three times. Atleast Returns juggles it's characters (only comic book film that juggles it's multiple villains with pretty much equal development and screen time) properly. Rises focuses too much on worthless secondary characters that take up screen time. You want to make a dig at Penguin, Catwoman and Shreck? How about Blake, Bane, Talia, Foley, Dagget etc.?




Bruce sitting in his manor, brooding, deep in thought then coming alive and becoming Batman as soon as he sees the signal is dumb but Bruce sitting in his manor, doing nothing for 8 years but growing a hermit beard and taking up . . . archery isn't?

 

[DiFabio]

I would agree with you on a few of those recent releases, but ultimately all you have to do is look at everything else in the mass produced 1/6 world to see just how superior HT really is. Im no HT fan boy, i spend a lot more of my time over in the customs section. in fact the same stylistic traits are true of any artist. Don't most of Rainman's sculpts or Rocco's for that matter have an identifiable quality to htem?

Yeah, I'm talking recently, like the past two years or so.

And to be fair, while yes, everyone has their own style (like custom artists), Hot Toys does have multiple sculptors and painters.

 

[Wake]

Yeah, I'm talking recently, like the past two years or so.

And to be fair, while yes, everyone has their own style (like custom artists), Hot Toys does have multiple sculptors and painters.

Agreed. Although they seem to work under the direction of a few managing partners.

 

[DiFabio]

Agreed. Although they seem to work under the direction of a few managing partners.

Yup.

And I'll give credit where credit is due. While I might be critical of their human head sculpts looking the same lately, I think they've done a terrific job with their off the wall creatures/monsters like the Predators, the Avatar character, the Hulk, etc. Those sort of "movie creatures" they do are usually always well done.

Their Returns Penguin and Prometheus offerings could have potential of being something very unique with their bodies and head sculpts alone.

 

[Mike86]

Mike, do you like/love TDKR at all?

Alot of those criticisms you have for Returns could easily be used for Rises too ironically.

Rises is Nolan at full control AND cranked up with his own unique "style" (instead of Burton's love of black and white and sympathetic monsters, we get guys in suits, Howard Hughes biopics and all that other stuff Nolan is known for EXCEPT the Batman aspect?

Devito Penguin a sewer freak that isn't adapted properly? How about Bane? He's a sewer freak too and NOTHING like his comic counterpart in looks, ideals or motivation. The only thing similar is having him break Batman's back and being from a prison. Penguin had that superficial quality too with his monocle, "birth rite" and his fake "sophistication" to win the hearts of Gotham. If Penguin is one of the worst adapted characters of all time, then Bane must certainly be up there for you.

I don't remember Bane spewing mumbling nonsense in any of his stories, except maybe Batman and Robin.



Ridiculous plot? How about all that crazy crap with the magical leg brace, the stock market, the "clean slate" device that doesn't exist . . . but does, or ALL of the police getting trapped for 5 months, or the nuclear bomb Macguffin itself! TDKR is crazy over the top.


Catwoman? The Returns Catwoman has way more depth than anything we see in Rises, which is a pity. They didn't even scratch the surface with their Selina. Atleast the Returns Catwoman was a fully developed character that wasn't used as a cardboard plot device to move the story and have the Batman character retire. She was her own character with her own dilemmas and psychology.



Batman is barely in Batman Returns? HA, Batman is shown more in Returns than he is in Rises. Waaay more. Batman isn't on screen for almost an hour in TDKR. Then after his first appearance he's shown twice, maybe three times. Atleast Returns juggles it's characters (only comic book film that juggles it's multiple villains with pretty much equal development and screen time) properly. Rises focuses too much on worthless secondary characters that take up screen time. You want to make a dig at Penguin, Catwoman and Shreck? How about Blake, Bane, Talia, Foley, Dagget etc.?




Bruce sitting in his manor, brooding, deep in thought then coming alive and becoming Batman as soon as he sees the signal is dumb but Bruce sitting in his manor, doing nothing for 8 years but growing a hermit beard and taking up . . . archery isn't?

The Dark Knight Rises isn't my favorite film of the trilogy but I don't hate it. Yeah there's some silly stuff in it I agree (the leg brace and the entire police force being trapped for five months in particular) but I overall don't mind it. The tone of the movie isn't as blatantly ridiculous as it was in Batman Returns. That is probably in and of itself the biggest issue I have with Batman Returns. The entire tone of it is just weird and like I said it comes across as more of a Tim Burton Freakshow movie than it does as a Batman movie. Yeah The Dark Knight Rises has over the top elements too but they just feel like plot devices that are used in a comic movie. Not because they're trying to be dark and edgy or some crap. I think the biggest issue that people had with The Dark Knight Rises being a bit more like a comic film is that they took to heart when Nolan said that his films are a more realistic approach to Batman. Which he actually never said that they are one hundred percent grounded in reality films.

Bane is hardly a sewer freak. He happens to set up his lair in the sewer, that's it. Aside from that his origin isn't all that far off from the comics other than the way he looks is changed and he doesn't use venom. Bane was raised in a prison and came to Gotham to hunt Batman and take over the city. The key difference in The Dark Knight Rises is that his motivations were inspired by Talia al Ghul. Truthfully though that didn't bother me so much as it was a way to bring the film full circle with Batman Begins.

Batman may not be in The Dark Knight Rises a ton, but regardless we do get a lot of focus on Bruce Wayne which is just as important. Plus the stuff with Bruce being a recluse for eight years made some sense to me. He thought after the events of The Dark Knight that he and Gordon had essentially done their job and that the only way for the people to be inspired by Harvey's work was for him to take the fall for what Harvey did and disappear. Now I do agree that it was a bit odd for Bruce Wayne to just have completely been a shut in for all those years but it's not exactly out of character from what he did in the past with disappearing for years before the events of Batman Begins.

Selina Kyle I agree wasn't as fully developed as she should have been and seems like she was put there for eye candy/an inspiration for Bruce to give up being Batman. Still though I didn't hate her character in this just wish she would have been given more time to have been developed.

 

[DiFabio]

Fair enough I guess, different strokes and all that.

I just thought "ridiculously awful crap" and "Forever was better" was a little harsh. Then again, I hate TDKR with a passion sooooooooo.


Can we atleast agree that Batman '89, The Dark Knight and Begins is great stuff?

 

[Mike86]

Fair enough I guess, different strokes and all that.

I just thought "ridiculously awful crap" and "Forever was better" was a little harsh. Then again, I hate TDKR with a passion sooooooooo.


Can we atleast agree that Batman '89, The Dark Knight and Begins is great stuff?

Yeah it's all good . I'm sorry I just have really grown to loathe that film as I've gotten older. The ironic thing was as a kid it was probably my favorite but I just can hardly stand it now.

I do agree that the Batman (1989), Batman Begins, and The Dark Knight are all great though.

 

[Lejuan]

Kind of reads like comparing two turds and musing on which is the tastier.

 

[TheFiend]

Bruce sitting in his manor, brooding, deep in thought then coming alive and becoming Batman as soon as he sees the signal is dumb but Bruce sitting in his manor, doing nothing for 8 years but growing a hermit beard and taking up . . . archery isn't?

This is the very heart of Batman. Stuff like this is Batman.

 

[Mike86]

The problem I have with that scene is that it feels so staged as a scene and doesn't feel natural. I feel like Bruce would be doing other stuff than just staring out the window waiting for the signal. I would think he'd be researching villains or monitoring for other crimes in the city while on the constant ready to put on the suit and cowl at a moments notice.

 

[spindrift]

This is the very heart of Batman. Stuff like this is Batman.

Agreed- authentic Batman depression mania overcome by one single incident. A big one, but still an incident.

I defend TDKR alot, don't mind it. I think Batman Returns is quite different from Batman but love both for what they are.

 

[spindrift]

The problem I have with that scene is that it feels so staged as a scene and doesn't feel natural. I feel like Bruce would be doing other stuff than just staring out the window waiting for the signal. I would think he'd be researching villains or monitoring for other crimes in the city while on the constant ready to put on the suit and cowl at a moments notice.

I think he went off the deep end and lost alot of confidence and drive....he show's it going half-a**ed to battle Bane.

 

[Khev]

I used to think Bruce sitting in the dark do nothing in Batman Returns was stupid until I watched it again recently and realized I was simply doing what a lot of Nolan/TDKR critics have been doing for a while now, and that is taking the limited information given in a certain scene and assuming the worst.

Where does the film actually say that he does nothing 24 hours a day until the signal goes up? Nowhere. I look at it now as him taking five minutes to collect his thoughts between crimes and even that is interrupted by another cry for help. And as Keaton always does, he gathers his resolve, stands up, and goes to work. No moping allowed.

 

[DiFabio]

The problem I have with that scene is that it feels so staged as a scene and doesn't feel natural. I feel like Bruce would be doing other stuff than just staring out the window waiting for the signal. I would think he'd be researching villains or monitoring for other crimes in the city while on the constant ready to put on the suit and cowl at a moments notice.

That night is the lighting of the Christmas tree ceremony isn't it? Bruce even says later that, "I wouldn't be caught dead there" for the second ceremony.


Happy, happy, smiles and holiday yuletide cheer doesn't seem like it would be Bruce Wayne/Batman's thing, hence why he's sitting all alone in his dark study brooding while everyone (families) is out enjoying the city life.

I don't see how that's not natural to the character. That scene is literally saying that Bruce Wayne's only purpose in life IS Batman.


Researching villains? Night patrol? He does both of those things in Batman Returns. As soon as he sees the Penguin and Shreck on television the gears start turning and Bruce gets very paranoid. The very next scene he's researching the triangle gang terrorists and the mysterious "aquatic bird boy" sideshow freak. That scene when he's driving around at night patrolling the quiet streets in the snow, watching Oswald in the Hall of records and Alfred questioning him is one of the most Batmanesque scenes out of ANY of the films. He's cynical, paranoid and obsessed. How is that not Batman?

 

[The Mike]

Love Forever. The car, the suits, it was so awesome back in the day.

I still love it. It reminds me of a great summer back in 95. Chris O'Donnell was a great Robin. The scene with Alfred where he explains the name is really quiet and earnest. If they announce the license, I'll be quite happy.

I hate O' Donnell's Robin. Ironically Batman and Robin made me hate him more but overall I'm not a fan. I did like the costuming though and I remember how huge everything Forever was that summer from McDonald's glasses I still have to the Riddler glow in the dark watches from the Warner Bros. Stores in the mall.

I'd buy a Kilmer Batman and probably an O' Donnell Robin just to have the set, it'd be a nice contrast with these.

 

[Khev]

How about all that crazy crap with the magical leg brace, the stock market, the "clean slate" device that doesn't exist . . . but does,

TKDR was great but I admit that having not one but TWO MacGuffins (nuke and clean slate) was a little weird.

 

[EVILFACE]

Even in a Adam West thread, we have Nolan vs Burton.