Hot Toys Announce Batman Returns License

[TheFiend]

Sigh... Again, it all stemmed from someone saying "Burton's Gordon was a bumbling idiot and Nolans was perfect... That is the difference in how secondary characters are treated by Burton vs Nolan". Pretty cut and dry as to what my response addressed.

This is the problem in grabbing a quote without the context of the conversation.

Sallah

No. I read the conversation. I was clear on this. I did post that and I think you read it. Thanks anyway.

I don't have the energy for this debate so I'll leave it at that.

 

[DiFabio]

I prefer the Gary Oldman Gordon. I think he was way better than Hingle. Oldman was pretty much Gordon from the comics to a tee. He perfectly embodied the spirit of the character and is fantastic in Begins and the Dark Knight.

Unfortunately by TDKR he turns into a "bumbling idiot" who sends out every man he has at his disposal into a 5 month trap. There's essentially nothing special about him in the last one and that Gordon/Batman relationship is pretty much gone (Blake/Batman takes it's place, even at the end).

Gordon wasn't bad in '89 (I liked his presence during the Axis Chemicals raid and the "he gave us a signal" ending), there just wasn't much to him. After that though, the character was literally down graded. Batman doesn't even give a crap about him in Batman Returns when Gordon comes past him and thanks him for "saving the day!"

In the Schumacher movies (which the first two films shouldn't really be lumped with)? Awful.

 

[paramoremcr88]

Yeah, I read all of that.

I don't see how Burton having this up hill battle has anything to do with Nolan's take on Gordon.

Nevermind. I think I lost interest in this never ending Burton / Nolan debate anyway.

Sent from my LG-E739 using Tapatalk 2

Exactly!!!

Agreed. I don't prefer one over the other.

I love both the Burton & Nolan films, each for different reasons.

 

[sallah]

No. I read the conversation. I was clear on this. I did post that and I think you read. Thanks anyway.

I don't have the energy for this debate so I'll leave it at that.

Who is debating? I was responding to someone else way earlier in who brought it up in this thread (which is pretty off topic to begin with). I am not even the one that trudged it back up, out of context. Why is it now pointed at me as somehow being the one debating it? I didn't make the original, off topic Nolan vs Burton remark nor did I bring it back up?

Sallah

 

[TheFiend]

I prefer the Gary Oldman Gordon. I think he was way better than Hingle. Oldman was pretty much Gordon from the comics to a tee. He perfectly embodied the spirit of the character and is fantastic in Begins and the Dark Knight.

Unfortunately by TDKR he turns into a "bumbling idiot" who sends out every man he has at his disposal into a 5 month trap. There's essentially nothing special about him in the last one and that Gordon/Batman relationship is pretty much gone (Blake/Batman takes it's place, even at the end).

Gordon wasn't bad in '89 (I liked his presence during the Axis Chemicals raid and the "he gave us a signal" ending), there just wasn't much to him. After that though, the character was literally down graded. Batman doesn't even give a crap about him in Batman Returns when Gordon comes past him and thanks him for "saving the day!"

In the Schumacher movies? Awful.

Dude, everyone sucked in TDKR. Gordon and Alfred both.


As far as Hingle goes, I can't imagine anyone would even care.
To say he was nothing like the comic is ridiculous but to say he was like the comic is equally ridiculous. He just wasn't developed at all so he could have been any commissioner from anywhere. Now, I'm going by '89 not any of the others.

 

[TheFiend]

Who is debating? I was responding to someone else way earlier in who brought it up in this thread (which is pretty off topic to begin with). I am not even the one that trudged it back up, out of context. Why is it now pointed at me as somehow being the one debating it? I didn't make the original, off topic Nolan vs Burton remark nor did I bring it back up?

Sallah

What?

Calm down, Salla. I wasn't pointing anything at you. You guys have been going back and forth for several posts, looked like a debate to me. You say it wasn't, that's cool, than it wasn't. I don't care.

 

[sallah]

What?

Calm down, Salla. I wasn't pointing anything at you. You guys have been going back and forth for several posts, looked like a debate to me. You say it wasn't, that's cool, than it wasn't. I don't care.

I am perfectly calm...

When you respond directly to me with this:

No. I read the conversation. I was clear on this. I did post that and I think you read it. Thanks anyway.

I don't have the energy for this debate so I'll leave it at that.

...How is that not talking directly to me?

I didn't start the topic, and i didn't bring it back up out of context. In fact, I even stated that if somebody prefers one over the other, more power to them... I am not going to change my mind on my preference, so I would expect somebody else would have reasons not to either.

I prefer Burton. Lots of others prefer Nolan. My stance though is that liking one doesn't mean you have to bash the other to get your point across (not directed at you Fiend... just a general statement). When it crosses the line into dogging the other guy's fav just to make yours better, then I think it becomes too much.

Sallah

 

[Cap'n Cook]

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[DarkMagic]

Uhhh... What? This has nothing to do with budgets, headaches, or whatever. This has to do with the task at hand with the time provided. Bottom line here- Burton had A LOT more to overcome when it came to creating a Batman movie true to the character's origin than Nolan did. The public view at large when Burton's hit was of the 66 show- Biff, bam, pow and all that. With that in mind, the main focus has to go with the main characters and establishing them as what they are supposed to be. Secondary characters become just that- Secondary. This is also a time before Batman the Animated Series, major comic films, Justice League, etc for secondary characters to really be firmly established in the public. Nolan didn't have to be concerned with any of that, and benefited from a more public awareness of both how Batman was intended to be and his cast of secondary characters... including getting to spend more time with Gordon.

What I am saying here is that there isn't anything wrong with Burton's Gordon. From what you see in the films, there isn't any reason to think of him as anything less than the Jim Gordon from the comics... Burton just didn't have the luxuries Nolan did to explore it more. But to call him a bumbling idiot? There is nothing in either Burton film to back that up. That is my point.

Oh, and for the record... Since you brought it up, I 100% prefer Jack's Joker. To me that is "Comic Joker". Heath's Joker is a "real world" take on the character...pretty divorced from what he is in the comic. That is something I myself don't prefer. But again- Different strokes for different folks. You prefer Nolan's take on stuff? Great. More power to you. It isn't my favorite though, and stating it is better as a fact or calling Burton's interpretations of certain individuals as "bumbling idiots" isn't going to change my mind.

Sallah

Burton could've developed Gordon more, even though he was a "secondary" character, of less importance than the main hero and villain. Harvey Dent, who was even lesser known than Gordon has comparable screen time and brings more intensity to the few scenes he is in.

Gordon on the other hand devolves from a barely competent cop to an even worse version of himself, the "I-can't-do-ANYTHING-Batman-will-save us-fanboy" commissioner. His incompetence/cowardice gets even worse in the Schumacher films, but since we're limiting the discussion to Burton, the downward depiction of Gordon definitely starts there:

In almost every scene, he shows his ever increasing weakness as a police leader.

Wayne Manor party:

"Why wasn't I told about this? Who's in charge?"

(Wait, aren't *YOU* the police commissioner? Maybe if you spent less time at a billionaire's charity ball, YOU would actually be the one "in charge" and know about corrupt lieutenant sting operations before they were already underway)

Axis Chemicals sting:

Kudos to the top cop for actually having the bravery to show up in person at the Axis sting, ready to shut it down. And how prepared is the commissioner of police for the danger of a situation where there's likely to be a shootout between Eckhart's corrupt unit and mobsters? Very! He show's up unarmed (and if he has a piece, he never once thinks to take it out...in a shootout!). He directs cops where to go but he doesn't even have a plan for where to put himself for a best offensive or even defensive position (stands out in the open, on the main floor, without a weapon or even a beat cop staying with him as a bodyguard, giving both Jack Napier and Bob opportunities to take a shot at him). His most powerful police "tool" in that scene is a bullhorn, which he didn't even bring himself!

200th Birthday celebration Cathedral / Batwing crash:

Gordon does NOTHING of any importance in this scene. It's especially bad because the Joker announced in advance, where he was going to be and when. Instead Gordon and his cops show up after the clown has been parading through the streets, Batman already saved most of the crowd from the gas, and goons were openly brandishing and firing their weapons recklessly. Why even bother to have him show up in that scene at all? His only (unnecessary) function is to direct the floodlights on the Cathedral, and find Joker's laughing pouch.

In Batman Returns, it get's even worse:

His first reaction to mayhem in the streets isn't to call for more cops to the scene, it's "What are you waiting for? The signal!" (please save us Batman!)

Then there's the cringeworthy line "Thanks for saving the day Batman!" Pretty good impression of the way 60s Gordon would express thanks.

Then there's the "H-H-Hold your fire!" scene. Burton wants us to believe that Gordon isn't in control of his own cops? In the GCPD I guess things are so bad that you gotta shoot first, ask questions later (except if actual criminals are around, in which case you wait for Batman).

Like I said, Gordon is even more ridiculous in the Schumacher films, but the character's weak trajectory was already set by the Burton ones.

There is plenty great about the Burton films, but just about everything about Gordon is wrong.

 

[TheFiend]

Anyway, to bring things back around on the subject, I wanted to post a while ago that I actually sat down to watch Returns for the first time in years. At one time I think I would say I had a strong dislike for it. Now? I can't say I have a serious aversion to it but it's still not my thing as a whole. There are things I liked though. Catwoman is great and so is the Penguin. I love their designs and a lot of Penguins lines are hilarious. The part where he's controlling the Batmobile from that little duck ride was great. I don't think I dislike the Batsuit as much as I did either. I still prefer 89 over it though. Some time I think it looks cool and other time I don't. There are things I dig about the suit and things I dislike.

Like here: No like

Here: Like.

I think from head on I don't like the way the cowl looks and something about the eye holes. But when he's in action it's all good.

One thing I will say about Returns is that it is one whacked out *** Batman film. It is a movie that doesn't give a f&%*.

 

[TheFiend]

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I know......

 

[Papasmoak]

 

[sallah]

Like here: No like

I am loving the way the color of the suit looks in the light of that shot though.... Argh! I want this figure NOW!

Sallah

 

[Khev]

Well crap, is this the entire HT booth lineup? 60's Batman and Robin but no Returns?

 

[jye4ever]

Did JJ Abrams create that program book for HT.

 

[freshvein]

I'm sure they are saving some figures for ani-com at the end of the month

 

[krec9]

Well crap, is this the entire HT booth lineup? 60's Batman and Robin but no Returns?

If true that is disappointing .

 

[sallah]

If true that is disappointing .

Incredibly so. Time to **** or get off the pot.

Sallah

 

[HeubertMichael]

Did JJ Abrams create that program book for HT.

that's freakin' funny, man

 

[paramoremcr88]

Incredibly so. Time to **** or get off the pot.

Sallah

Not heard that one before!