lol thats true nothing new to say about the figure, except to perhaps complain its still not muscular enough lol. Oh and why doesnt the armor version come with the kryptonite spear?
1/6 Hot Toys - BvS: Dawn of Justice - Batman
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lol thats true nothing new to say about the figure, except to perhaps complain its still not muscular enough lol. Oh and why doesnt the armor version come with the kryptonite spear?
SilverStar17
Super Freak
I can see this being the case though also. What's there to talk about regarding the figure that we don't already know at this point?
The Kylo Ren figure thread in the Star Wars section ran into this same issue before the figure released when there was nothing else to talk about a figure that hadn't released yet, so people resorted to talking about the prequel films.
I think you saw the wrong film.Look, we get it you disliked BVS but you never develop a valid point explaining why you disliked it, only ridiculous claims such as the one quoted above or vague statements like "it's a mess".
You spend so much time in this thread repeating the same thing over and over that I'm starting think you secretly loved BVS!
Starscream Soundwave
Super Freak
If you can't see that the movie is unbalanced, or badly edited, then it's probably time to call it a day. As for the 'Marvel fanboy' comments, well... I despair.
greygoose
Super Freak
spindrift
Super Freak
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and you are a Marvel fan! Bravo!
I though it was fun to watch, Batfleck deciding to kill Supes due to a 1% chance he is bad is hilarious, that batfleck was so big he didn't really fit in most of the vehicles still cool there were times the second bale suit appeared small. Batman was brutal and demon like, wonder woman looked amazing and for someone who was retired for 100 years fought doomsday the longest I think, her theme music was one if the best tracks IMO. Never got why Superman didnt like Batmman fighting crime, cause a few criminals died? Supermans powers always look great and Im glad the fighting can actually be seen now, Man of steel had fighting scenes that looked more like a DBZ fighting game. Lex Junior was such an oddball the speech at his event made me laugh like crazy. Top points would be the Martha nightmare, the batman branding scene, batmobile chase, batman v superman, wonderwoman entrance to fight Doomsday, the nuke scene, batman going crazy about Supermans mom and becoming friends immediately 
oh and the Martha Kent rescue.
Negatives: The 1% percent thing, superman's initial problem with batman, Lex Junior being a spaz and joker like, doomsday monster looked too much like the troll from LOTR, Superman constantly being thought of as the bad guy, superman needs to get a better job so his mom doesnt need to work, makes him look as broke as spiderman
still cool there were times the second bale suit appeared small. Batman was brutal and demon like, wonder woman looked amazing and for someone who was retired for 100 years fought doomsday the longest I think, her theme music was one if the best tracks IMO. Never got why Superman didnt like Batmman fighting crime, cause a few criminals died? Supermans powers always look great and Im glad the fighting can actually be seen now, Man of steel had fighting scenes that looked more like a DBZ fighting game. Lex Junior was such an oddball the speech at his event made me laugh like crazy. Top points would be the Martha nightmare, the batman branding scene, batmobile chase, batman v superman, wonderwoman entrance to fight Doomsday, the nuke scene, batman going crazy about Supermans mom and becoming friends immediately oh and the Martha Kent rescue. Negatives: The 1% percent thing, superman's initial problem with batman, Lex Junior being a spaz and joker like, doomsday monster looked too much like the troll from LOTR, Superman constantly being thought of as the bad guy, superman needs to get a better job so his mom doesnt need to work, makes him look as broke as spiderman
link2195
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I though it was fun to watch, Batfleck deciding to kill Supes due to a 1% chance he is bad is hilarious, that batfleck was so big he didn't really fit in most of the vehicles
Negatives: The 1% percent thing, superman's initial problem with batman, Lex Junior being a spaz and joker like, doomsday monster looked too much like the troll from LOTR, Superman constantly being thought of as the bad guy, superman needs to get a better job so his mom doesnt need to work, makes him look as broke as spiderman
Lol I though the same thing, poor Martha has to work the late shift.
jedijim3002
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LOL I was thinking the same thing!
SilverStar17
Super Freak
I think it's comments like these that people take umbrage to, not that you disliked the film. When people diplomatically ask you to explain yourself, you don't do it. You are very vague and curt with your responses and keep repeating the same responses such as the one above, and deliver it in such a way as if it's "fact".
I'm honestly surprised by the amount of people who, like you, did not understand the reason behind Batman going after Superman.
Wayne has been the Batman for 20 years, he is older and has been broken by loss and the feeling that he did not make a difference.
He is paranoid and Superman's power combined with the destruction in Metropolis push him over the edge, he sees taking him out as the only way to ensure the earth's safety and finally make a difference.
He seeks redemption and goes at it the wrong way.
The 1% argument for preemptive action is that of a man who is not well, ironically of course it is based on **** Cheney's dumb rhetoric for going into Iraq in 2003.
No I understood the factors that made Batman decide to go on the offensive, even Luthor and the government wanting to acquire a "silver bullet"
believe me as I love heroes from both marvel and DC but Bats has been number 1 for me for 23 years so I understand batman's motives really well what made me laugh was the line. I dont question why he chose to take on superman.
believe me as I love heroes from both marvel and DC but Bats has been number 1 for me for 23 years so I understand batman's motives really well what made me laugh was the line. I dont question why he chose to take on superman.
I think this offers a great summation of why the film matters. There are many layers of the story, many of which I might not have appreciated when I was younger, before I became a husband, father, etc. I appreciate entertainment and works of art that make me think. Sometimes those are the same, but sometimes they are not. Either way, I'd rather have something that makes me think.
dario2739
Super Freak
It's the 'real-life' approach DCEU has taken - superhero comics have been around decades, and Superman is such an icon, so well known that everybody just accepts him... but think about Superman for a second... who is he? That is what BvS (and MoS) are addressing. Superman is an alien... pure and simple. And it's human nature to be distrustful of aliens... you only have to look at how Hollywood deals with aliens usually... Starman, The Man Who Fell to Earth, E.T., etc. etc. - the overiding theme in Alien on Earth movies is that the government needs to catch them as they are a threat. Superman's problem is he's so popular, so well known, so ingrained in our psyche that most people have stopped seeing him as the alien he actually is.
So, Batman's reaction is plausible to me... why has Batman taken down, or attempted to take down Superman countless times in the comics before? In BvS, Bruce sees first-hand the battle of Metropolis. He sees Superman, Zod and his minions destroy a large part of the City, purely by being so all-powerful. He sees them destroy his building and kill his friends and employees. Superman stops Zod... but with all the Kryptonians gone, Superman stands the sole 'all-powerful' survivor... so who stops him if he goes rogue?
dario2739
Super Freak
Again you bang on about something as matter-of-fact.
In YOUR OPINION the editing is bad... I'd get on to WB and get yourself a job then, because countless people saw that final movie before release, it will have passed countless quality checks and critical eyes - including the director's before release... however nobody said it was badly edited until the release? Not forgetting the fact that an Oscar winning editor worked on it!
The problem with you raising the editing is that it seems like you are just regurgitating something you read in a review. Your views are not personal reviews, rather they seem like you've read them and agreed after the fact. You really need to understand the difference between opinion and fact.
Nobody on here is trying to change your opinion by the way – but you keep banging on and on and on with the same old rhetoric. We've heard you, and by now you should've realised you won't change our minds. When points have been raised, they have been intelligently and honestly answered, but those replies have not been countered with the same... just repeats of the original points!
SilverStar17
Super Freak
I feel it's human nature though to immediately be distrustful though of anything in general that we don't readily understand, or can't immediately identify with and compartmentalize. Extra-terrestrials would be included in this.
Found this analysis on Forbes, was a pretty good read. Its long as hell, I cut out some of it. If want to read the full aricle google search snyder loves superman.
The world is cynical, skeptical, and jaded. War, poverty, violence, hatred — these are the daily realities for so many people, and even those in positions of so-called power realize how helpless they are to stop most of it. Lex Luthor’s remark about a person with knowledge being smart enough to realize they are powerless in the world is a crucial hint into his own psyche and how the scars of this lesson were beaten into him from a young age, for example. He articulates a truth, a knowledge about the powerlessness of mankind in the face of our own destructive impulses, and that we pretend toward power and knowledge to shield ourselves from those realities.
Bruce Wayne's entire arc is that of a man whose life is defined by feeling powerless, beginning as a child watching his parents murdered in the street for no reason at all and growing up to dedicate his life to fighting crime as Batman. He became a gardner, pulling up weeds in a garden already overrun by them, and now as an aging man he faces the harsh truth of his ineffectiveness, of the terrible losses despite his best intentions and best efforts. He has the knowledge to understand now that he’s always been powerless, that he never escaped that alley where he watched helplessly as his parents died. That’s why he’s become cruel, more violent, crossing lines he didn’t cross before. The world didn’t become better and safer, it just fought back twice as hard to remain corrupt, and so Batman keeps fighting harder in return, even as he feels his battle is hopeless in the long run.
And then comes a man from the sky to put a fine point on all of it, a man who can stop suffering and injustice, a man of near limitless power. Superman holds up a mirror to Bruce, to Lex, and to the world, showing us what real power is, and showing us how the application of real power can be in service to absolute good if only we will allow it. But there was no Superman, no absolute good power, to rescue Lex from the abuse and perversions of his father, so why should the world now have a Superman? A good power that failed him, that left him to suffer, and that tries to represent hope in a world Lex sees as hopeless, is not a power he can trust or accept. It makes him all the more aware of his own powerlessness, and to overcome that feeling he will raise himself up like a God and drag the God down to the dirt, destroying the absolute good that Lex believes never existed in the first place.
Bruce meanwhile sees Superman in much the same way as Lex. There was no Superman to save Thomas and Martha Wayne, no Superman to help Batman pull up the weeds overrunning Gotham. Every “good” Bruce saw over the years, every person who supposedly fought for hope and justice, either died or became corrupted, or just gave up. He doesn’t believe in absolute good anymore, and so all he can see in Superman is absolute power that cannot be trusted because it exists in a world too cynical and damaged to allow such power to be good. Superman is a symbol of all of Batman’s failures, of his greatest fears come to life, and if all good has become corrupted eventually, then this absolute symbol of Batman’s helplessness and failure cannot be allowed to exist anymore. Superman will be destroyed, because Batman has become another of the “good” people who couldn’t remain good in a world this bad, even if he doesn’t (yet) realize he is one of those people he was talking about.
Lex and Bruce represent the world itself, a flawed and distrustful place that feels unworthy of absolute good and so cannot let itself dare to hope such good really exists. Idealism has been replaced with cold disillusionment even among the youth who are far too inexperienced and immature to truly feel as faux-jaded and cynical-chic as they pretend to be. Power always, inevitably becomes corrupted and used to perpetuate inequality, violence, oppression, exploitation, and other ills in our world, we say. So we reject hope, we reject the idea of a common good, because it’s not 1938 and apples don’t cost a nickel and the “good ol’ days” were never good for everybody after all.
Superman stands in stark contrast to that cynical world. He wants to be a symbol of hope, he wants to use his powers for good, he wants to inspire us to overcome our skepticism and learn to have faith again, to believe there will be good ol’ days in our future after all. So he gets up every day and goes out to save us, to redeem us all by himself, even when we tell him to stop and to go home. Superman is idealistic, and Batman v Superman demonstrates this time and again.
Clark Kent/Superman notices Batman’s vigilantism is mostly confined to the poorer neighborhoods, and that police mostly ignore Batman’s actions precisely because his targets are primarily in those poorer areas. Clark wants to raise awareness, to give voice to those people, because he feels it is the responsibility of society to stand up for those who need mercy and whose voices are ignored. He’s not just fighting for idealism and absolute good as Superman, he takes his lessons seriously and is trying to fight for the same idealism in his everyday life, and to inspire others to do so both as Superman and as Clark Kent.
When the world keeps questioning him, he says he will not stop fighting for what’s right. Are there unintended side effects of his actions? Yes, but we know the real truth — those side effects are caused by humanity, either as a conspiracy precisely determined to undermine the world’s trust in Superman, or as actual human reactions to Superman. When Superman intervenes around the world to help people, we all have a choice about how we can react. When countries choose to react with anger and violence against their own people, that is not because Superman’s good actions were at fault, it is because he didn’t fully appreciate how rotten humanity can be. He has faith in us, which is why he assumes we will eventually learn to have faith in him. He holds us in much higher regarded than we deserve, convinced in our basic goodness deep down in our hearts. The question is, will we be inspired to try to live up to his faith in us?
During the U.S. Capitol sequence, a crazed bomber destroys Congress to punish Superman and send the message that hatred and cynicism will always strike as long as Superman continues trying to inspire us. This is the moment where Superman’s true doubt about his role on Earth begins. His doubts arise because he has thus far insisted he won’t stop helping people and fighting for good, just because people blame him for side-effects caused by bad people. He cannot, he felt, predict such things and he cannot plan his actions based on assuming the worst in humanity — that’s contrary to his entire purpose, obviously.
Now, however, he realizes that the bombing is just a symbol of a bigger problem. He didn’t see the bomb that was right in front of him, he says, because he wasn’t looking. He didn’t assume the worst, he didn’t believe the world when the world tried to tell him repeatedly that it was cynical and rejected hope. He didn’t want to believe it, because he believed in his ideals. And he still does, but he no longer has the same level of faith that humanity can come to embrace his idealism too. He hasn’t entirely lost faith, but he’s struggling with it, and with the decision about how to respond. When Lois says the “S” is a symbol of hope to people, Superman replies, “It was on my world… but my world doesn’t exist anymore,” and he’s not simply talking about Krypton. He’s talking about the world he knew right here, the world as he saw it, the world he chose to have faith in during the film Man of Steel (a significant recurring theme)
The question is simple: will the cynical world change him, or will he change the cynical world (the way Batman was changed by it, remember)?
Clark leaves, to think and explore his own heart and worldview. A Superman forced to confront his idealism amid a cynical world is not an abandonment of the traditional characterization, it is a reinforcement of it. It shows that yes, Superman can have his beliefs and idealism challenged, and in the end even in the face of a world that doesn’t want to change Superman will refuse to give up on us. In Batman v Superman, he wonders about the consequences of his actions and whether it is possible to stand for absolute good when the outcomes can often inevitably created complicated side effects.
When Clark sees his human father, Jonathan Kent, we get a story about how faced with a rising flood threatening to wipe out the family, Jonathan helped dig a trench and block the floodwater’s path. He was a hero for those actions, he saved the family farm, but the digging redirected the floodwater to another farm and destroyed it. Remember that this is in Clark’s mind and memory, so when he asks his father if he ever got over the bad dreams about the unintended consequences, Clark already knows the answer, because this conversation is all about Clark talking to himself. His father says yes, he was able to live with the consequences of his actions because he found faith again when he met Martha.
What is this about? It’s pretty straightforward, really — Jonathan couldn’t refuse to act, to save his family, and he did so without any expectation that saving his family would create a flood of action elsewhere that harmed other people. The flood did that damage, not Jonathan, and all he could do – all any of us can do — is act to do good and save people when we see it. If we know possible consequences, then we must think through our actions and make sure to consider those consequences and how to either divert them or live with them and continue having faith. Love, and having a life to live that shows us why we must act to do good, helps us have faith in ourselves and in the world. Because however dark the world becomes, however hard it can be to accept consequences of our actions when we know we’re doing the right thing but the world will blame us for it, we can have someone who makes it all worthwhile, someone who represents the good we know exists in this world. And that good is always, always worth fighting for.
Superman knows he cannot give up, knows he must always act and use his powers for good, and knows that Lois is the love of his life and represents all of the people who do look to him as a symbol of hope and goodness in the world. It is a simple message, but it resonates as clearly to me as anything in the film. So he comes back, and his return coincides with Lex putting his final evil scheme into motion. Lois is thrown off the building, but Superman is already back in town and saves her. He has come back, and immediately his choice to return presents him with a final challenge to his idealism — his mother will die unless he kills Batman.
It seems an impossible choice, and he remarks that no one stays good in this world, but this is clearly not literal since we see his true intention is to convince Batman to help him. He never tries to kill Batman, making it clear by literally saying it out-loud. In the end, he will die trying to convince Batman to help save Martha, rather than do Lex Luthor’s bidding and murder a hero he (Superman) has finally come to understand as a good man being corrupted by a cynical world (something Superman has been struggling with himself, which is why he now understands Batman).
Batman’s arc is that he finally is able to see Superman for who he is, as a man with a name and someone he loves and a mother he cares about. It’s one thing to objectively know that a living being has parents and an identity they use day to day, but that doesn’t mean we perceive them as a true person with whom we sympathize and empathize. Batman couldn’t see Superman that way, because of all of the pain and fear and sense of helplessness obscuring his vision. That was stripped away in that moment when he had to cross the final line and kill Superman — standing over Superman, ready to deliver the fatal blow, Batman tells himself, “You were never even a man,” a means of justifying the act. But instead, he stares down at a Superman rendered mortal and vulnerable, a man who’s final words are a plea to save a mother, and the words, “Save Martha,” resonate in Batman’s brain for obvious reasons (it is his own mother’s name).
That moment of confusion forces Batman to instantly relive his mother’s death, to feel that helplessness again for the ten thousandth or millionth time, and then the confusion gives way to realization and understanding that Superman is indeed just a man with a life and a mother he is trying to protect, and Batman’s world comes crashing down. He now knows that yes, he was the villain, he was another “good person” who didn’t stay that way. He was standing astride a man who represented hope and goodness, blaming that man for all of humanity’s failings and cynicism and hopelessness.
It’s quite a thing to look into a mirror and see your greatest enemy staring back at you. That, it turns out, was Batman’s true greatest fear, that instead of becoming a symbol to change the world, he had become another good person corrupted by that world instead. Now he knew it, without a doubt, and it almost drove him to murder a hero. Batman had to chose, in that moment, between continuing to be cynical and reject hope, or to have faith again and believe — having faith is something he hadn’t done in a long time, obviously, but here now is a small bit of hope to cling to, a lifeline, and he grabs it.
Superman and Batman have come full circle now, two heroes embracing hope, having faith that good will triumph over evil, and committing to fight for that idealism. Superman gives his life for it, dying for this world because he had faith we were worth the sacrifice — a powerful absolute force of good dying for a flawed world, to try to save us from ourselves (which is what Luthor of course represents, the side of the coin where we cannot be redeemed, versus Batman as the side that can be redeemed).
Thus if Man of Steel was very much mindful of Superman’s roots in Jewish religious history and the story of Moses (and the parallels are pretty clear, as they were in Superman’s actual comic book origins and history), Batman v Superman brings the character into the more common modern representation as a messianic Christ-figure. (This is, by the way, one of many examples of how Snyder’s Superman movies provide an overarching representation of Superman’s history and changes in comics over the decades, a point I touch on in my article about why Superman killing in Man of Steel was not unfaithful to the character.)
Batman v Superman isn’t mocking Superman’s idealism, it depends on it and uses it as the thematic basis for redeeming Batman and the entire world, and for leading us to the creation of the Justice League. The cynicism is intentionally framed as the world’s rejection of Superman, representing the modern real-life arguments about whether Superman is relevant and relatable to our real world, and the claims by a lot of people that Superman can’t be interesting because of his goodness and idealism. Batman v Superman argues that in a world with so few good guys who remain good, with so many reasons to give up and stop having faith, Superman’s idealism is more important than ever, more relevant than ever.
Batman doesn’t brand Lex Luthor in the end, notice. It’s a small thing, but it’s a hint that he is trying to change, trying to get back to being the man he used to be. He’s not there yet, granted, and he’s struggling with it, but he sees what must be done and his cynical distrust of superhumans is giving way to a willingness to reach out to them and ask them to help defend humanity by working together for the greater good Superman represented.
Zack Snyder honors Superman’s history and legacy in this film, by having the goodness and idealism of Superman dominant as an idea debated and argued throughout the story, until ultimately that idealism and goodness are what saves the world and becomes a great sacrifice to convince us all to have hope and faith again. Batman and the other heroes will be inspired by that goodness, that idealism, that sacrifice, and eventually Superman will of course return to life and join the other heroes.
Anyone arguing that these themes don’t exist, that Batman v Superman fails Superman, and that Zack Snyder “hates Superman” are simply not paying enough attention and are ignoring the most important and clearest narrative arc in the entire movie. It’s not coincidence that these scenes, this dialogue, and this overarching connectivity exists, nor that the characters’ arcs mirror one another, comparable and contrasting at different moments. I think a large part of the disconnect some reviewers and viewers feel toward this film arises directly from the fact the film presents interpretations and incarnations that don’t directly fit into any single purist preference for “the right way” to portray them. If you have only one Superman or one Batman you like, and/or if your conception of them lacks room for the other many interpretations over the decades, and/or if you are opposed to seeing a cinematic adaptation that actually attempts to reflect MANY eras and approaches to these characters, then that’s frankly going to affect your viewing experience and your opinion of this film.
Which is of course fine, since everyone is entitled to their opinion and to their preferences. No one preference is better than another, and we shouldn’t defend this film in a way that claims other people’s preferences and views are “wrong” or “not true fans” and so on. But what we can say, and what I think we in fact MUST say, is that this film’s interpretation and approach are likewise as valid as any other, are faithful to the comics, and do have deeper themes and characterization that give lie to any simplistic claim that it “hates” Superman or lacks substantive examination and representation of what Batman and Superman stand for.
These things exist in the film, they are important to understanding it, and Zack Snyder and the writers took pains to present this story and provide those themes. And any serious assessment of the film should recognize this, and address it, otherwise those reviews and assessments are quite frankly shallow in their examination and very mistaken in their conclusions.
The world is cynical, skeptical, and jaded. War, poverty, violence, hatred — these are the daily realities for so many people, and even those in positions of so-called power realize how helpless they are to stop most of it. Lex Luthor’s remark about a person with knowledge being smart enough to realize they are powerless in the world is a crucial hint into his own psyche and how the scars of this lesson were beaten into him from a young age, for example. He articulates a truth, a knowledge about the powerlessness of mankind in the face of our own destructive impulses, and that we pretend toward power and knowledge to shield ourselves from those realities.
Bruce Wayne's entire arc is that of a man whose life is defined by feeling powerless, beginning as a child watching his parents murdered in the street for no reason at all and growing up to dedicate his life to fighting crime as Batman. He became a gardner, pulling up weeds in a garden already overrun by them, and now as an aging man he faces the harsh truth of his ineffectiveness, of the terrible losses despite his best intentions and best efforts. He has the knowledge to understand now that he’s always been powerless, that he never escaped that alley where he watched helplessly as his parents died. That’s why he’s become cruel, more violent, crossing lines he didn’t cross before. The world didn’t become better and safer, it just fought back twice as hard to remain corrupt, and so Batman keeps fighting harder in return, even as he feels his battle is hopeless in the long run.
And then comes a man from the sky to put a fine point on all of it, a man who can stop suffering and injustice, a man of near limitless power. Superman holds up a mirror to Bruce, to Lex, and to the world, showing us what real power is, and showing us how the application of real power can be in service to absolute good if only we will allow it. But there was no Superman, no absolute good power, to rescue Lex from the abuse and perversions of his father, so why should the world now have a Superman? A good power that failed him, that left him to suffer, and that tries to represent hope in a world Lex sees as hopeless, is not a power he can trust or accept. It makes him all the more aware of his own powerlessness, and to overcome that feeling he will raise himself up like a God and drag the God down to the dirt, destroying the absolute good that Lex believes never existed in the first place.
Bruce meanwhile sees Superman in much the same way as Lex. There was no Superman to save Thomas and Martha Wayne, no Superman to help Batman pull up the weeds overrunning Gotham. Every “good” Bruce saw over the years, every person who supposedly fought for hope and justice, either died or became corrupted, or just gave up. He doesn’t believe in absolute good anymore, and so all he can see in Superman is absolute power that cannot be trusted because it exists in a world too cynical and damaged to allow such power to be good. Superman is a symbol of all of Batman’s failures, of his greatest fears come to life, and if all good has become corrupted eventually, then this absolute symbol of Batman’s helplessness and failure cannot be allowed to exist anymore. Superman will be destroyed, because Batman has become another of the “good” people who couldn’t remain good in a world this bad, even if he doesn’t (yet) realize he is one of those people he was talking about.
Lex and Bruce represent the world itself, a flawed and distrustful place that feels unworthy of absolute good and so cannot let itself dare to hope such good really exists. Idealism has been replaced with cold disillusionment even among the youth who are far too inexperienced and immature to truly feel as faux-jaded and cynical-chic as they pretend to be. Power always, inevitably becomes corrupted and used to perpetuate inequality, violence, oppression, exploitation, and other ills in our world, we say. So we reject hope, we reject the idea of a common good, because it’s not 1938 and apples don’t cost a nickel and the “good ol’ days” were never good for everybody after all.
Superman stands in stark contrast to that cynical world. He wants to be a symbol of hope, he wants to use his powers for good, he wants to inspire us to overcome our skepticism and learn to have faith again, to believe there will be good ol’ days in our future after all. So he gets up every day and goes out to save us, to redeem us all by himself, even when we tell him to stop and to go home. Superman is idealistic, and Batman v Superman demonstrates this time and again.
Clark Kent/Superman notices Batman’s vigilantism is mostly confined to the poorer neighborhoods, and that police mostly ignore Batman’s actions precisely because his targets are primarily in those poorer areas. Clark wants to raise awareness, to give voice to those people, because he feels it is the responsibility of society to stand up for those who need mercy and whose voices are ignored. He’s not just fighting for idealism and absolute good as Superman, he takes his lessons seriously and is trying to fight for the same idealism in his everyday life, and to inspire others to do so both as Superman and as Clark Kent.
When the world keeps questioning him, he says he will not stop fighting for what’s right. Are there unintended side effects of his actions? Yes, but we know the real truth — those side effects are caused by humanity, either as a conspiracy precisely determined to undermine the world’s trust in Superman, or as actual human reactions to Superman. When Superman intervenes around the world to help people, we all have a choice about how we can react. When countries choose to react with anger and violence against their own people, that is not because Superman’s good actions were at fault, it is because he didn’t fully appreciate how rotten humanity can be. He has faith in us, which is why he assumes we will eventually learn to have faith in him. He holds us in much higher regarded than we deserve, convinced in our basic goodness deep down in our hearts. The question is, will we be inspired to try to live up to his faith in us?
During the U.S. Capitol sequence, a crazed bomber destroys Congress to punish Superman and send the message that hatred and cynicism will always strike as long as Superman continues trying to inspire us. This is the moment where Superman’s true doubt about his role on Earth begins. His doubts arise because he has thus far insisted he won’t stop helping people and fighting for good, just because people blame him for side-effects caused by bad people. He cannot, he felt, predict such things and he cannot plan his actions based on assuming the worst in humanity — that’s contrary to his entire purpose, obviously.
Now, however, he realizes that the bombing is just a symbol of a bigger problem. He didn’t see the bomb that was right in front of him, he says, because he wasn’t looking. He didn’t assume the worst, he didn’t believe the world when the world tried to tell him repeatedly that it was cynical and rejected hope. He didn’t want to believe it, because he believed in his ideals. And he still does, but he no longer has the same level of faith that humanity can come to embrace his idealism too. He hasn’t entirely lost faith, but he’s struggling with it, and with the decision about how to respond. When Lois says the “S” is a symbol of hope to people, Superman replies, “It was on my world… but my world doesn’t exist anymore,” and he’s not simply talking about Krypton. He’s talking about the world he knew right here, the world as he saw it, the world he chose to have faith in during the film Man of Steel (a significant recurring theme)
The question is simple: will the cynical world change him, or will he change the cynical world (the way Batman was changed by it, remember)?
Clark leaves, to think and explore his own heart and worldview. A Superman forced to confront his idealism amid a cynical world is not an abandonment of the traditional characterization, it is a reinforcement of it. It shows that yes, Superman can have his beliefs and idealism challenged, and in the end even in the face of a world that doesn’t want to change Superman will refuse to give up on us. In Batman v Superman, he wonders about the consequences of his actions and whether it is possible to stand for absolute good when the outcomes can often inevitably created complicated side effects.
When Clark sees his human father, Jonathan Kent, we get a story about how faced with a rising flood threatening to wipe out the family, Jonathan helped dig a trench and block the floodwater’s path. He was a hero for those actions, he saved the family farm, but the digging redirected the floodwater to another farm and destroyed it. Remember that this is in Clark’s mind and memory, so when he asks his father if he ever got over the bad dreams about the unintended consequences, Clark already knows the answer, because this conversation is all about Clark talking to himself. His father says yes, he was able to live with the consequences of his actions because he found faith again when he met Martha.
What is this about? It’s pretty straightforward, really — Jonathan couldn’t refuse to act, to save his family, and he did so without any expectation that saving his family would create a flood of action elsewhere that harmed other people. The flood did that damage, not Jonathan, and all he could do – all any of us can do — is act to do good and save people when we see it. If we know possible consequences, then we must think through our actions and make sure to consider those consequences and how to either divert them or live with them and continue having faith. Love, and having a life to live that shows us why we must act to do good, helps us have faith in ourselves and in the world. Because however dark the world becomes, however hard it can be to accept consequences of our actions when we know we’re doing the right thing but the world will blame us for it, we can have someone who makes it all worthwhile, someone who represents the good we know exists in this world. And that good is always, always worth fighting for.
Superman knows he cannot give up, knows he must always act and use his powers for good, and knows that Lois is the love of his life and represents all of the people who do look to him as a symbol of hope and goodness in the world. It is a simple message, but it resonates as clearly to me as anything in the film. So he comes back, and his return coincides with Lex putting his final evil scheme into motion. Lois is thrown off the building, but Superman is already back in town and saves her. He has come back, and immediately his choice to return presents him with a final challenge to his idealism — his mother will die unless he kills Batman.
It seems an impossible choice, and he remarks that no one stays good in this world, but this is clearly not literal since we see his true intention is to convince Batman to help him. He never tries to kill Batman, making it clear by literally saying it out-loud. In the end, he will die trying to convince Batman to help save Martha, rather than do Lex Luthor’s bidding and murder a hero he (Superman) has finally come to understand as a good man being corrupted by a cynical world (something Superman has been struggling with himself, which is why he now understands Batman).
Batman’s arc is that he finally is able to see Superman for who he is, as a man with a name and someone he loves and a mother he cares about. It’s one thing to objectively know that a living being has parents and an identity they use day to day, but that doesn’t mean we perceive them as a true person with whom we sympathize and empathize. Batman couldn’t see Superman that way, because of all of the pain and fear and sense of helplessness obscuring his vision. That was stripped away in that moment when he had to cross the final line and kill Superman — standing over Superman, ready to deliver the fatal blow, Batman tells himself, “You were never even a man,” a means of justifying the act. But instead, he stares down at a Superman rendered mortal and vulnerable, a man who’s final words are a plea to save a mother, and the words, “Save Martha,” resonate in Batman’s brain for obvious reasons (it is his own mother’s name).
That moment of confusion forces Batman to instantly relive his mother’s death, to feel that helplessness again for the ten thousandth or millionth time, and then the confusion gives way to realization and understanding that Superman is indeed just a man with a life and a mother he is trying to protect, and Batman’s world comes crashing down. He now knows that yes, he was the villain, he was another “good person” who didn’t stay that way. He was standing astride a man who represented hope and goodness, blaming that man for all of humanity’s failings and cynicism and hopelessness.
It’s quite a thing to look into a mirror and see your greatest enemy staring back at you. That, it turns out, was Batman’s true greatest fear, that instead of becoming a symbol to change the world, he had become another good person corrupted by that world instead. Now he knew it, without a doubt, and it almost drove him to murder a hero. Batman had to chose, in that moment, between continuing to be cynical and reject hope, or to have faith again and believe — having faith is something he hadn’t done in a long time, obviously, but here now is a small bit of hope to cling to, a lifeline, and he grabs it.
Superman and Batman have come full circle now, two heroes embracing hope, having faith that good will triumph over evil, and committing to fight for that idealism. Superman gives his life for it, dying for this world because he had faith we were worth the sacrifice — a powerful absolute force of good dying for a flawed world, to try to save us from ourselves (which is what Luthor of course represents, the side of the coin where we cannot be redeemed, versus Batman as the side that can be redeemed).
Thus if Man of Steel was very much mindful of Superman’s roots in Jewish religious history and the story of Moses (and the parallels are pretty clear, as they were in Superman’s actual comic book origins and history), Batman v Superman brings the character into the more common modern representation as a messianic Christ-figure. (This is, by the way, one of many examples of how Snyder’s Superman movies provide an overarching representation of Superman’s history and changes in comics over the decades, a point I touch on in my article about why Superman killing in Man of Steel was not unfaithful to the character.)
Batman v Superman isn’t mocking Superman’s idealism, it depends on it and uses it as the thematic basis for redeeming Batman and the entire world, and for leading us to the creation of the Justice League. The cynicism is intentionally framed as the world’s rejection of Superman, representing the modern real-life arguments about whether Superman is relevant and relatable to our real world, and the claims by a lot of people that Superman can’t be interesting because of his goodness and idealism. Batman v Superman argues that in a world with so few good guys who remain good, with so many reasons to give up and stop having faith, Superman’s idealism is more important than ever, more relevant than ever.
Batman doesn’t brand Lex Luthor in the end, notice. It’s a small thing, but it’s a hint that he is trying to change, trying to get back to being the man he used to be. He’s not there yet, granted, and he’s struggling with it, but he sees what must be done and his cynical distrust of superhumans is giving way to a willingness to reach out to them and ask them to help defend humanity by working together for the greater good Superman represented.
Zack Snyder honors Superman’s history and legacy in this film, by having the goodness and idealism of Superman dominant as an idea debated and argued throughout the story, until ultimately that idealism and goodness are what saves the world and becomes a great sacrifice to convince us all to have hope and faith again. Batman and the other heroes will be inspired by that goodness, that idealism, that sacrifice, and eventually Superman will of course return to life and join the other heroes.
Anyone arguing that these themes don’t exist, that Batman v Superman fails Superman, and that Zack Snyder “hates Superman” are simply not paying enough attention and are ignoring the most important and clearest narrative arc in the entire movie. It’s not coincidence that these scenes, this dialogue, and this overarching connectivity exists, nor that the characters’ arcs mirror one another, comparable and contrasting at different moments. I think a large part of the disconnect some reviewers and viewers feel toward this film arises directly from the fact the film presents interpretations and incarnations that don’t directly fit into any single purist preference for “the right way” to portray them. If you have only one Superman or one Batman you like, and/or if your conception of them lacks room for the other many interpretations over the decades, and/or if you are opposed to seeing a cinematic adaptation that actually attempts to reflect MANY eras and approaches to these characters, then that’s frankly going to affect your viewing experience and your opinion of this film.
Which is of course fine, since everyone is entitled to their opinion and to their preferences. No one preference is better than another, and we shouldn’t defend this film in a way that claims other people’s preferences and views are “wrong” or “not true fans” and so on. But what we can say, and what I think we in fact MUST say, is that this film’s interpretation and approach are likewise as valid as any other, are faithful to the comics, and do have deeper themes and characterization that give lie to any simplistic claim that it “hates” Superman or lacks substantive examination and representation of what Batman and Superman stand for.
These things exist in the film, they are important to understanding it, and Zack Snyder and the writers took pains to present this story and provide those themes. And any serious assessment of the film should recognize this, and address it, otherwise those reviews and assessments are quite frankly shallow in their examination and very mistaken in their conclusions.
SilverStar17
Super Freak
Thank you for posting that.
That was the best assessment I've seen that describes EXACTLY what I saw and what I feel is going on in this film and just how many layers it has. Everything that was written is on point with my sentiments. It shows just how much of a realistic take they are doing on these characters, because everything they described is exactly what I feel that's happening in today's world.
It also reinforces why I feel Superman is the opposite of what Batman was labeled as being in TDK: "The hero that the people deserve, but not the one that they need", while Superman I feel is the type of hero that people need, but not the one that they deserve.
That was the best assessment I've seen that describes EXACTLY what I saw and what I feel is going on in this film and just how many layers it has. Everything that was written is on point with my sentiments. It shows just how much of a realistic take they are doing on these characters, because everything they described is exactly what I feel that's happening in today's world.
It also reinforces why I feel Superman is the opposite of what Batman was labeled as being in TDK: "The hero that the people deserve, but not the one that they need", while Superman I feel is the type of hero that people need, but not the one that they deserve.
Nice read.
Yes, like what we talked about just yesterday, when you break it down, this is actually an intelligent movie with many layers.
Unfortunately, it went over a lot of people's heads and not only that, they're expecting a DC version of marvel's avengers type of movie.
So when the movie turned out different and not the movie that they're expecting, they're disappointed.
People were still expecting a reeve type of superman that smiles a lot.
And a batman that was in still in control.
This is a superman who is losing hope on humanity.
And a batman who is closer to the version that was out of control when Jason died.
This version is actually beyond that, whose about to finally cross that line.
Yes, like what we talked about just yesterday, when you break it down, this is actually an intelligent movie with many layers.
Unfortunately, it went over a lot of people's heads and not only that, they're expecting a DC version of marvel's avengers type of movie.
So when the movie turned out different and not the movie that they're expecting, they're disappointed.
People were still expecting a reeve type of superman that smiles a lot.
And a batman that was in still in control.
This is a superman who is losing hope on humanity.
And a batman who is closer to the version that was out of control when Jason died.
This version is actually beyond that, whose about to finally cross that line.
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