Hot Toys DX04 - Enter the Dragon: Bruce Lee 1/6th scale Collectible Figure

[Terminator_Fan_Game]

Re: Hot Toys's DX04 - Enter the Dragon: Bruce Lee 1/6th scale Collectible Figure

Aw, dunno 'bout that mate. I'm all about Lee's fighting style and all, and have over ten years of wing chun training myself - but boxing isn't just punching. A huge part of boxing is in the feet, and Ali could move with the best of them. I don't think it's a clear-cut call either way, but I wouldn't write off Ali just because an also-ran lost a fight in UFC bout.

But ive seen COUNTLESS stand up fighters get taken down in seconds, too.
Ali would be no different because a boxer doesnt train to defend it.
Ive proved this myself too.
Its really easy to clinch or shoot double leg on someone like a boxer who has no defense for it.
Once theyre on the ground, all their boxing training is good for nothing.
Boxing is a GREAT art, but it simply doesnt compete against grappling/mma.
Even Bruce Lee himself said that a grappler is the hardest type of opponent to fight.

And when I said boxing is just punching, I mean that it doesnt train things like kicks, elbows, trapping, takedowns, gappling, submissions etc etc
Which means it doesnt train the defense for those moves too.
I see boxing as being like a "fair" game, whereas real fighting is the complete opposite. Therefore you HAVE to be ready and able to do more than just "punch" and defend against punches.
Otherwise youre out your comfort zone.

 

[SAB]

Re: Hot Toys's DX04 - Enter the Dragon: Bruce Lee 1/6th scale Collectible Figure

Terminator_Fan_Game - I just can't see that anyone with training in GJJ/BJJ could say that Bruce Lee was a grappling expert.

I've been training combat sports for 15 years ...initially in freestyle fighting (which was a precursor to modern MMA), kickboxing and 5+ years in Brazilian Jiu-jitsu.

If anyone is actually interested, here is that actual truth.

Bruce Lee was a striker and an amazing one at that.
His ability to shirt his hips to kick is still amazing today compared to other fighters.

His ability to think outside the square and not get stuck in the dogma of rigid martial arts was amazing for its time. As was his ability to add western fitness methods.

He was (as Dana White called him) the 'forefather of MMA' in that he mixed various methods.

His drive and ambition to be the biggest star on the planet and what he achieved toward that in such a short period is simply staggering, all things considered.

But he was NOT a grappler and was not an expert in everything.
He had done a little judo and submission training with 'Judo' Gene LeBell in the late 60s.
There are some stick figure drawings in his notebooks that were later published by his estate.

His training partner and right hand man Dan Inosanto who got into grappling in later life has answered this question many times due to current interest in the UFC. He states they did a little work but not much, but had Bruce lived longer he is convinced he would have pursued it deeper.

Similar has been said by Taky Kimura and Ted Wong (RIP) his two other top students.

Dan Inosanto is a total badass by the way who actually achieved a Brazilian Jiu-jitsu blackbelt in his 70s. Unbelievable....Bruce most likely would have been there training with him if he was still alive today.

There is no record anywhere that he was highly capable in wrestling takedowns or any style of wrestling.

While he didn't have a bad attitude towards grappling like many pure strikers did - hell he even does a submission finish at the start of Enter the Dragon - you can see more of his thoughts watching some of the other work.

Particularly his submission 'escapes' in Fist of Fury and Way of the Dragon. Go to BJJ/MMA school and try biting or hair pulling while locked deep in submissions and come back and tell us the result. It won't be pretty.

What often confuses people who don't train is the difference between basic knowledge and application. His little grappling training did not mean he was suddenly an amazing grappler or that he could execute the techniques against resisting opponents - very different to a willing training partner.

Trust me on this, I was obsessed with the dude for years and have everything he ever wrote and most things by his 1st generation students like Inosanto, Kimura and Wong.
If you can show me something different, please do so.

Ali was 6'3" and 215 lean pounds and could move like someone much lighter - 'float like a butterfly'

Bruce was around 5'8" and around 130.

The height and weight difference alone is staggering and then you add that Ali is generally considered one of the most talented boxers who ever lived.

Bruce was neither Couture (40 years wrestling experience) or Inoki (not just a pro-wrestler but also a shoot fighter).

If your argument is a 'boxer vs wrestler in 2010' then sure....but the
idea that in 1971, Bruce's strategy would have been to shoot a double is just strange.

 

[Lejuan]

Re: Hot Toys's DX04 - Enter the Dragon: Bruce Lee 1/6th scale Collectible Figure

But ive seen COUNTLESS stand up fighters get taken down in seconds.
Ive proved this myself too.
Its really easy to clinch or shoot double leg on someone like a boxer who has no defense for it.
Once theyre on the ground, all their boxing training is good for nothing.
Boxing is a GREAT art, but it simply doesnt compete against grappling/mma.
Even Bruce Lee himself said that a grappler is the hardest type of opponent to fight.

That's true, but I don't think it can be underestimated how hard a time Lee would have getting Ali on the floor in the first place. Ali was that much better than anyone around him in his prime, with Ali first and daylight second. I dunno, whenever I think about this match-up I always lean towards Lee, but Ali... he was super quick and super agile. And a heavyweight.

One thing's for sure, it wouldn't go to points.

 

[Terminator_Fan_Game]

Re: Hot Toys's DX04 - Enter the Dragon: Bruce Lee 1/6th scale Collectible Figure

@ SAB -
I OMPLETELY agree with all of that.
But Im just saying that Bruce trained in grappling so he would have the upper hand there.
Im pretty sure he would apply it if he felt the need, or if Ali rocked him.
Even when a boxer who fights someone who kicks him, he is usually forced to fight completely different to what hes used to.

What belt are you in BJJ, my friend?

 

[axecutioner18]

Re: Hot Toys's DX04 - Enter the Dragon: Bruce Lee 1/6th scale Collectible Figure

Bruce dont need to fight...

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KI6poM5OXtE"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KI6poM5OXtE[/ame]

If he did...
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpozuqfFNNo&NR=1"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpozuqfFNNo&NR=1[/ame]

 

[SAB]

Re: Hot Toys's DX04 - Enter the Dragon: Bruce Lee 1/6th scale Collectible Figure

@ SAB -
I OMPLETELY agree with all of that.
But Im just saying that Bruce trained in grappling so he would have the upper hand there.
Im pretty sure he would apply it if he felt the need, or if Ali rocked him.

What belt are you in BJJ, my friend?

Well I guess if you agree completely but still think Bruce's limited experience would have allowed him to win then there is not much I can say.....

I am a blue belt going for purple soon ...and getting my butt kicked now by my younger brother who is a purple going on brown

 

[Hydeous]

Re: Hot Toys's DX04 - Enter the Dragon: Bruce Lee 1/6th scale Collectible Figure

I doubt that VERY much.
Bruce Lee was a mixed martial artist and could grapple.
And we all know what happens when a grappler fights a stand up fighter like a boxer.....
They end up losing and looking like complete noob fighters....which they are, if you think about it.

In fact, Ali had a LOT of trouble fighting Antonio Inoki, who was a Japanese wrestler.
A few days before the fight happened, Inoki had a list of rules imposed on him that said he couldnt throw, grapple or tackle Ali....basically, he wasnt allowed to use his wrestling on him!
Like WTF???

He was also told that he couldnt land a kick on Ali unless at least one knee was on the mat!

So yeah, I guess what Im saying is, boxers never do good against grapplers/mixed martial artists.
Id give Bruce a 95% chance of winning.

Id give 99% chance.

Bruce's kick would prolly land on Ali first before his punch could reach him.

 

[Terminator_Fan_Game]

Re: Hot Toys's DX04 - Enter the Dragon: Bruce Lee 1/6th scale Collectible Figure

Well I guess if you agree completely but still think Bruce's limited experience would have allowed him to win then there is not much I can say.....

I am a blue belt going for purple soon ...and getting my butt kicked now by my younger brother who is a purple going on brown

But Bruce was a smart guy, so thats why Im sure he would try taking Ali down.
I dont think he would let his (limited)grappling training go to waste.
Even the little grappling experience he had would be enough to beat Ali on the ground or at least even out the fight and frustrate/make Ali feel stupid.
But still, I think Bruce could even give Ali trouble on his feet too.
Who knows for sure?

But all I know is that Ali would be a noob when on the ground, so it would be a smart thing for Bruce to take him there.

 

[Terminator_Fan_Game]

Re: Hot Toys's DX04 - Enter the Dragon: Bruce Lee 1/6th scale Collectible Figure

Id give 99% chance.

Bruce's kick would prolly land on Ali first before his punch could reach him.

And that kick would probably be in the balls

 

[Hydeous]

Re: Hot Toys's DX04 - Enter the Dragon: Bruce Lee 1/6th scale Collectible Figure

Mike Tyson would eat Bruce Lee's ear.

Not before Bruce grab him by the balls and bite his leg.

 

[joebad]

Re: Hot Toys's DX04 - Enter the Dragon: Bruce Lee 1/6th scale Collectible Figure

Dude. You are on the internet. Everyone is a expert fighting tuff guy.

 

[Terminator_Fan_Game]

Re: Hot Toys's DX04 - Enter the Dragon: Bruce Lee 1/6th scale Collectible Figure

No one is acting like tough guys, were just discussing who would win between Ali or Bruce.

 

[SAB]

Re: Hot Toys's DX04 - Enter the Dragon: Bruce Lee 1/6th scale Collectible Figure

Hey this is much more civil than discussing this on MMA forums

...and don't get me started on traditional kung-fu forums where claims are made that Bruce would be UFC champion (and of course so would the head of whatever school the poster is from, but the master has no interest in that )

 

[Terminator_Fan_Game]

Re: Hot Toys's DX04 - Enter the Dragon: Bruce Lee 1/6th scale Collectible Figure

Hey this is much more civil than discussing this on MMA forums

...and don't get me started on traditional kung-fu forums where claims are made that Bruce would be UFC champion (and of course so would the head of whatever school the poster is from, but the master has no interest in that )

Tell me about it, my friend.
Bruce Lee was a phenominal martial artist and especially for his time, but I very much doubt he would be UFC champ without 1st mastering his stand up and especially grappling.
Fighters have evolved since his time.
And those traditional kung fu guys make me laugh but sometimes make me want to pull my hair out too

 

[thenammagazine]

Re: Hot Toys's DX04 - Enter the Dragon: Bruce Lee 1/6th scale Collectible Figure

oh dear god, please don't tell me people actually think Bruce Lee would have stood a chance against Ali !?

Are you messing with me?
I mean seriously?

Do you or have you ever trained any combat sport ?

Aw, dunno 'bout that mate. I'm all about Lee's fighting style and all, and have over ten years of wing chun training myself - but boxing isn't just punching. A huge part of boxing is in the feet, and Ali could move with the best of them. I don't think it's a clear-cut call either way, but I wouldn't write off Ali just because an also-ran lost a fight in a UFC bout.

I think some people forget before acting, Lee was a competing fighter (both in tournaments and fighting for his life). As much a fan of Ali as I am, Bruce takes it. He lived and breathed fighting, from philosophy, to diet, to workout. His own style incorporated much from boxing but wasn't limited to it. While there's no doubt Ali was great, Lee was that much better. Perhaps if Ali landed a punch, maybe. But if he doesn't get that lucky, it ain't gonna bode well for him. He's out conditioned, out boxed and outmatched and he'd be fighting someone virtually immune to his psychological game.

 

[SAB]

Re: Hot Toys's DX04 - Enter the Dragon: Bruce Lee 1/6th scale Collectible Figure

I think some people forget before acting, Lee was a competing fighter (both in tournaments and fighting for his life). As much a fan of Ali as I am, Bruce takes it. He lived and breathed fighting, from philosophy, to diet, to workout. His own style incorporated much from boxing but wasn't limited to it. While there's no doubt Ali was great, Lee was that much better. Perhaps if Ali landed a punch, maybe. But if he doesn't get that lucky, it ain't gonna bode well for him. He's out conditioned, out boxed and outmatched.

Lee participated in exactly one tournament - a small high school boxing tournament in HK against other teenagers. He won using his wing chun training because he had no boxing training at that age.

He was never a competing tournament fighter of any type.

Fighting for his life? Not according to any accounts I've seen including the happy fluffy official estate histories.
He participated in a few roof top wing chun fights with other HK teenagers.
He had the one fight for the 'right to teach foreigners' but that wasn't a fight to the death.
There are a few accounts of on set challenge matches that he easily won - though I don't consider these fighting for his life.

While TFG's argument is Bruce could use grappling, I think you may be the only person that has ever claimed Ali would be 'out boxed' by Lee.

 

[thenammagazine]

Re: Hot Toys's DX04 - Enter the Dragon: Bruce Lee 1/6th scale Collectible Figure

Lee participated in exactly one tournament - a small high school boxing tournament in HK against other teenagers. He won using his wing chun training because he had no boxing training at that age.

He was never a competing tournament fighter of any type.

Fighting for his life? Not according to any accounts I've seen including the happy fluffy official estate histories.
He participated in a few roof top wing chun fights with other HK teenagers.
He had the one fight for the 'right to teach foreigners' but that wasn't a fight to the death.
There are a few accounts of on set challenge matches that he easily won - though I don't consider these fighting for his life.

While TFG's argument is Bruce could use grappling, I think you may be the only person that has ever claimed Ali would be 'out boxed' by Lee.

I'd put money on it. If Ali hadn't beat Foreman at the mental game, Foreman would've beat him. Ali was great, but not the best. Pre Army Joe Louis was a better boxer than Ali.

 

[Lee in MI]

Re: Hot Toys's DX04 - Enter the Dragon: Bruce Lee 1/6th scale Collectible Figure

He's out conditioned, out boxed and outmatched and he'd be fighting someone virtually immune to his psychological game.

Have you ever seen Ali box?

 

[Lejuan]

Re: Hot Toys's DX04 - Enter the Dragon: Bruce Lee 1/6th scale Collectible Figure

 

[thenammagazine]

Re: Hot Toys's DX04 - Enter the Dragon: Bruce Lee 1/6th scale Collectible Figure

Have you ever seen Ali box?

Have you? First things first, he'd have to actually hit Lee. He was fast for a heavyweight, but not that fast.