Hot Toys Justice League Superman

[The Buffinator]

I dunno, I thought a lot of the rumours said WB used that tragedy as an excuse to get rid of Snyder. The fact that he didn't attend any of the premieres, still has never watched the movie they put out and has detailed how his vision was changed entirely speaks volumes. There is no reason they couldn't have delayed the movie until spring/summer 2018 to allow him the time to finish the movie properly.

If they were going to rush things just to meet that original release date the very least they could have done was stay true to Zack's vision for the movie. They changed almost everything by inserting all those Marvel style gags, removing his soundtrack and overall tone completely, cut out a lot of important scenes from Cyborg and Flash just to cut the running time etc. I think he has every reason to be disgusted with how WB treated him.

I do not pretend MoS and BvS had no issues, Snyder has always been a divisive film maker. I enjoyed those movies, especially BvS but no doubt they had some issues regarding script and pacing. They are though visually stunning, distinct in tone and consistent with each other. Green lighting JL then attempting to change tone three quarters of the way through production made absolutely no sense. They were never going to win over the haters, all they succeeding in doing was alienating the fans who enjoyed the previous two movies.

I completely agree that WB's decision to change course made no sense (especially that far along in the process), and they compounded their mistake by asking Whedon to rewrite & reshoot so much of the film and still hit the same deadline. And to top it off, I've read that WB proceeded to interfere with or reject several of Joss's new scenes as well. It's a miracle the movie ended up being even somewhat coherent.

I'd like to think that even WB wouldn't stoop so low as to leverage a child's death in the ouster of an employee. More than likely he was already feeling like a lame duck when they brought JW in to "help" him with rewrites. Even if they were best of friends & had a great working relationship, he had to feel insulted to be told to go back to the drawing board at that point. So when he stepped away for his family, there was likely little motivation for him to come back.

 

[Futurion]

You make some very good points regarding Snyder's positive contributions, and I too think JL would have been better if he had been allowed to finish it. But you seem to have glossed over the fact that his daughter committed suicide and he stepped down to grieve with his family. While it's true prior to that WB intrusively brought in Whedon to help him rework the film (& bring it in at a 2 hour run time), he wasn't fired. The alternative to going forward without Zack would have been to shelve the film until he felt ready to return, likely losing hundreds of millions of $$ in the process. Obviously that was never going to happen. In the end WB got exactly what they deserved, a film that was reworked in a rushed manner that was something that neither Zack nor Joss would be willing to call their own distinct vision of the Justice League.

You felt for the WB fairy tale. That tragedy happened months ago before his exit. They simply fired him.


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[Hoody999]

For me personally, BvS UE is probably still my all time favorite superhero movie.

In the end, the only people to blame is WB. No doubt, instead of being passionate about their movie, they only wanted to see how much money they can get by copying Marvel. Ultimately, JL looked like a Marvel wannabe.
They should have just stuck it out with Snyder.

The reason Snyder's movie is never gonna make $$$ like Marvel is that:
His movies are darker in tone, and not kid friendly. I had a couple of friends ask me that they heard the BvS was pretty dark and asked for my opinion if its a movie that they can take their kids to. They were surprised when I said nope...I wouldnt take a kid to see it.
He tends to make bold, creative decisions in his movie, that many people love, but also drive fanboys go nuts. He doesnt take the safe route.
Superman snapping Zod's neck, Batman killing people, Superman dies in the end, etc.

Look at all these disney family movies, besides even Marvel, making $$$$ in the box office.
So you take kids out of the equation to see Snyder's movies, plus...Add to that, his movies leave a lot of fans bickering for his creative decisions...and you can see that, his movies are not gonna make the same amount of money as Marvel movies, which tend to take the safe route. Marvel makes movies for everyone.
Zack's movies are not for everyone.
So for it to make $850 million for BvS, you can see its actually not bad at all.

But all WB cares, is how to break the billion dollar zone like Marvel did, so they hired Whedon, who I personally think is overrated.
And fired the guy who is responsible for:
A) Finding the best Superman since Christopher Reeve. Think about that. There have been many Superman since Reeve, but the torch was never passed until Henry.
B) Brought the perfect Wonder Woman to the screen. Not since Linda Carter...again, another torch that hasnt been passed since the 70's.
C) Brought the best Batman I've seen in BvS.
I ate crow big time. I was with the masses who cried when they heard Affleck was Batman. Then saw BvS, and finally got to see the Batman I've loved in the "The Dark Knight Returns" comic book, come alive in the movie screen.

WB people are insane. They should be thanking Snyder instead of firing him.

Looks like we're unanimous here, as this also sums up my thoughts perfectly. It's always so sad to see that greed and money are what dictates making a different edgy dark movie.

What frustrates me the most is the simple waste of opportunity. As Remy has said the cast is stellar, the setup awesome.

WB changed their course to supposedly make more money and now look at the situation they are in.

Idiots.....

 

[The Buffinator]

You felt for the WB fairy tale. That tragedy happened months ago before his exit. They simply fired him.


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Well if I fell for their story I wasn't alone, and it's because that was the only version being told at the time. And if he really was fired months prior, that means he was complicit in the lie. Why would he do that - did he sign a NDA to protect his own piece of the movie's profits?

 

[Nine Inch Nails]

You felt for the WB fairy tale. That tragedy happened months ago before his exit. They simply fired him.


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To be fair, it was Snyder himself who released a statement of him needing to step away from it due to him not fully healing after the tragedy.

 

[davejames]

I wouldn't be surprised if it was a combination of the two. WB would have stuck with Snyder but kept pushing harder and harder to lighten up the tone (beyond what he was already planning to do), and for him dealing with all that stress on top of grieving for his daughter just became too much.

 

[Remy]

Well if I fell for their story I wasn't alone, and it's because that was the only version being told at the time. And if he really was fired months prior, that means he was complicit in the lie. Why would he do that - did he sign a NDA to protect his own piece of the movie's profits?

Because it was the civil way to do it.
I’m sure zack had to be careful in how it’s handled it because he can either get sued by WB,
Or he’ll have a hard time finding producers to work with when you blasted the people you worked with.

It happens all the time. Movie gets a director, and then producers step in and meddle with the work, then you eventually hear the director left
Due to “creative difference” before the movie is made, so they’re Looking for another director.

The case with Snyder, he was far along JL.
He has been told to make it lighter. And apparently, the rough movie he showed to the producers were still dark.
So they fired him and they could have chosen any other directors out there.
Who did they pick?
Surprise!!! Hey Whedon, make our JL like the avengers. So we can really make $$$

The thing is Whedon didn’t just come in and help finish the movie.
He rewrote a huge chunk of the movie and even fired junkie xl who does the music for zack.

Zack has also afterwards finally made a comment he wishes he could have finished the movie, which pretty much confirms what everyone thought had happened. That him leaving wasn’t his decision.
He has also late been posting a lot of JL behind the scenes images, and been making a lot of comments about jL.

 

[hottoyskyle]

I don’t blame zack really. WB has no vision, except to make money that marvel is making ( should I say Disney). Marvel took the risk first to try and develop this shared world and universe and all the money/ time finally paid off. WB just wanted the easy way out and forced all this heavy work load on Snyder. It could of even been the great Christopher Nolan behind the camera the universe would of still went to crap because WB didn’t want to invest the time. WB should have giving us a Superman trilogy along with Wonder Woman and green lantern. When enough time passed bring batman back, then bring them together.

Edit; BVS should have really been DC civil war. Not to start the extended universe hahaha

 

[davejames]

Maybe they should just let Patty Jenkins run the DCEU. She's the only one there who really seems to know what she's doing, and who can make a fun, old-fashioned superhero movie with characters you actually care about, while still keeping that slightly more grounded tone that Snyder established.

 

[Chuck72586]

Wonder Woman was great. It had humor, but it took the scenes seriously that it needed to take seriously. Balance... Something Man of Steel, Batman v Superman, and Justice League didn't have. MOS, and BvS took themselves too seriously while JL, much like Avengers, didn't take itself seriously enough. It's all about balance.

The same could be said for the Nolan trilogy. I felt like after Batman Begins, Nolan didn't balance those movies enough between the darker, more grounded approach he was going for with the more fantastical, lighter moments you'd expect to see in a comic book movie. I thought Batman Begins had a great balance of those things, but Nolan went too far with the sequels where they took things just a little too seriously which then continued into MOS, and BvS. I know Nolan had very little to do with BvS, but it was still very much the tone he had established with his films.

 

[Bjjer]

I remember the very first teaser for BvS, the tone and music made it seem like a horror movie

 

[guyver1]

Maybe they should just let Patty Jenkins run the DCEU. She's the only one there who really seems to know what she's doing, and who can make a fun, old-fashioned superhero movie with characters you actually care about, while still keeping that slightly more grounded tone that Snyder established.

Why don’t we wait for the coronation after WW1984

Let’s see if she can still have magic the second time

 

[The Buffinator]

Because it was the civil way to do it.
I’m sure zack had to be careful in how it’s handled it because he can either get sued by WB,
Or he’ll have a hard time finding producers to work with when you blasted the people you worked with.

It happens all the time. Movie gets a director, and then producers step in and meddle with the work, then you eventually hear the director left
Due to “creative difference” before the movie is made, so they’re Looking for another director.

The case with Snyder, he was far along JL.
He has been told to make it lighter. And apparently, the rough movie he showed to the producers were still dark.
So they fired him and they could have chosen any other directors out there.
Who did they pick?
Surprise!!! Hey Whedon, make our JL like the avengers. So we can really make $$$

The thing is Whedon didn’t just come in and help finish the movie.
He rewrote a huge chunk of the movie and even fired junkie xl who does the music for zack.

Zack has also afterwards finally made a comment he wishes he could have finished the movie, which pretty much confirms what everyone thought had happened. That him leaving wasn’t his decision.
He has also late been posting a lot of JL behind the scenes images, and been making a lot of comments about jL.

Sorry to beat a dead horse here, but did Zack or WB ever confirm that he was indeed fired? Saying he wished he could have finished the movie really doesn't "confirm" that. It could just have meant that he wished that the combination of circumstances (WB meddling & rejecting his cut, hiring of Whedon, his daughter's death, no possibility to delay the release) didn't occur to prevent that happening. And while I agree that directors leaving over "creative difference" happens all the time, rarely are they still listed as the film's director when the final credits roll.

 

[sj2106]

Maybe they should just let Patty Jenkins run the DCEU. She's the only one there who really seems to know what she's doing, and who can make a fun, old-fashioned superhero movie with characters you actually care about, while still keeping that slightly more grounded tone that Snyder established.

I'd definitely love to see her have a go at a Superman movie..hopefully with Cavill still there. She did, as you say, strike a fine balance between paying homage to the Reeve movies but still keeping things grounded. At times Wonder Woman was very dark but it never felt over bearing. Nor did it descend into the feel of a buddy comedy Marvel often goes for.

 

[Hoody999]

I'd definitely love to see her have a go at a Superman movie..hopefully with Cavill still there. She did, as you say, strike a fine balance between paying homage to the Reeve movies but still keeping things grounded. At times Wonder Woman was very dark but it never felt over bearing. Nor did it descend into the feel of a buddy comedy Marvel often goes for.

No doubt they've asked her. But I guess she can't do everything. Does she write as well ? Really need someone writing scripts for Superman and other movies in their "planned movie lineup", assuming such a thing even exists. Then Jenkins can step in when she's done with WW84.

 

[Remy]

Sorry to beat a dead horse here, but did Zack or WB ever confirm that he was indeed fired? Saying he wished he could have finished the movie really doesn't "confirm" that. It could just have meant that he wished that the combination of circumstances (WB meddling & rejecting his cut, hiring of Whedon, his daughter's death, no possibility to delay the release) didn't occur to prevent that happening. And while I agree that directors leaving over "creative difference" happens all the time, rarely are they still listed as the film's director when the final credits roll.

Sure, you could interpret Snyder comment as I'm sorry, I couldn't finish the movie,
Or you could read between the lines.

There are so many websites that pointing out that ultimately, Snyder got fired.
And the fact that lately, he's been posting a lot of justice league comments on his vero account suggest, he didn't want to step away.

https://batman-news.com/2017/11/17/zack-snyder-hasnt-seen-justice-league-apologizes/

If WB really trusted in zack, whedon didn't have to do a massive reshoots and rewrite of the movie.
He simply could have finished zacks visuon.

https://www.comicbookmovie.com/just...d-his-cut-of-the-movie-before-leaving-a161465

 

[sj2106]

Sure, you could interpret Snyder comment as I'm sorry, I couldn't finish the movie,
Or you could read between the lines.

There are so many websites that pointing out that ultimately, Snyder got fired.
And the fact that lately, he's been posting a lot of justice league comments on his vero account suggest, he didn't want to step away.

https://batman-news.com/2017/11/17/zack-snyder-hasnt-seen-justice-league-apologizes/

If WB really trusted in zack, whedon didn't have to do a massive reshoots and rewrite of the movie.
He simply could have finished zacks visuon.

https://www.comicbookmovie.com/just...d-his-cut-of-the-movie-before-leaving-a161465

Exactly, it's pretty obvious reading between the lines Zack is far from impressed with how this all turned out. They may have told him Whedon was just finishing his vision but that certainly did not happen. WB did everything they could to de-Snyder the movie before release.

Am I right in thinking he has the legal right to release a directors cut at some point? Will probably be a few years in the making since he can't work on it full time but I do hope we get to see it someday.

 

[davejames]

No doubt they've asked her. But I guess she can't do everything. Does she write as well ? Really need someone writing scripts for Superman and other movies in their "planned movie lineup", assuming such a thing even exists. Then Jenkins can step in when she's done with WW84.

I remember reading somewhere that despite Snyder and others being credited for the story, it was actually Jenkins and Geoff Johns who wrote what we see on screen and made it all work. And she also added a lot of the heart and humor and the fish-out-of-water element.

And they're the only two credited now for the sequel, so that tells you just how big a role they really played.

 

[Remy]

Exactly, it's pretty obvious reading between the lines Zack is far from impressed with how this all turned out. They may have told him Whedon was just finishing his vision but that certainly did not happen. WB did everything they could to de-Snyder the movie before release.

Am I right in thinking he has the legal right to release a directors cut at some point? Will probably be a few years in the making since he can't work on it full time but I do hope we get to see it someday.

I dont think he has the legal right to release a director's cut, without WB permission.
The problem lies strictly with WB. Clearly, the decision making they are doing are mind boggling.

There were rumors originally that they were gonna release the extended cut of BvS in theaters, which is clearly a much much superior version of the movie.
It Fixed all the editing issues.
If they would have released that in the theater, BvS would have broken the billion dollar mark.
Instead, it went straight to video.
Hell, they could probably still re-release that in theaters and even though I have the bluray, I would love to see the BvS EC on Imax.

As far as Justice League, there is a petition to release the Snyder cut.
If the Big wigs in WB would just swallow their pride and let Snyder release his directors cut in theaters, again, it could add several hundred million more to JL box office numbers. If it turned out actually amazing and word of mouth that it is much better than the original...heck, it might also break the billion dollar mark.

But the idiots at WB clearly dont know what they are doing. So who knows.
I do hope that someday, we might actually get to see the JL Snyder cut.

 

[Nine Inch Nails]

I prefer the extended over theatrical like everyone else, but the issues people had over it are still present.