Well it depends on what the stuff is. But if I walked into someone's home and all's they had was Nazi stuff displayed, I think that would be stange. Thats just me though.
How Evil Is Too Evil: Collectibles and Nazis
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Well it depends on what the stuff is. But if I walked into someone's home and all's they had was Nazi stuff displayed, I think that would be stange. Thats just me though.
devilof76
Super Freak
thecapn, you'll get your own post, but I'm too tired right now to give you the answer you deserve.
I don't buy it.
Evil has always been evil. There was no equivalence because Washington wasn't.
Washington's ownership of slaves was inherited, as was Jefferson's. Neither of them were supporters of the institution, but neither of them knew how to deal with the complexities of abolition. Jefferson tried (the original draft of the Declaration included the 'excreble commerce' as one of the grievances against George III) but had to consider the early fate of the country. Normally, I would not put the existence of a nation over the welfare of even a single individual, but being that the country was founded on the principles which would eradicate slavery in the west once practiced consistently, I would say that it was part of the natural order of things. Certain phenomena cannot be changed overnight.
The U.S. didn't invent slavery. It did make it obsolete. Washington was instrumental in that to the extent that without him, it may have never come to pass, so yes, I believe him to be completely absolved of any guilt. If someone has proof of him being responsible for the murder of slaves under his charge, that'd be a different story. I've never heard of anything. Supposition doesn't count.
I don't buy it.
Evil has always been evil. There was no equivalence because Washington wasn't.
Washington's ownership of slaves was inherited, as was Jefferson's. Neither of them were supporters of the institution, but neither of them knew how to deal with the complexities of abolition. Jefferson tried (the original draft of the Declaration included the 'excreble commerce' as one of the grievances against George III) but had to consider the early fate of the country. Normally, I would not put the existence of a nation over the welfare of even a single individual, but being that the country was founded on the principles which would eradicate slavery in the west once practiced consistently, I would say that it was part of the natural order of things. Certain phenomena cannot be changed overnight.
The U.S. didn't invent slavery. It did make it obsolete. Washington was instrumental in that to the extent that without him, it may have never come to pass, so yes, I believe him to be completely absolved of any guilt. If someone has proof of him being responsible for the murder of slaves under his charge, that'd be a different story. I've never heard of anything. Supposition doesn't count.
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DinoLast
Super Freak
Not at all.
Look at the Empire who are quite obviously partly styled on the Nazis.
Admiral Ozzel was Hitler (Last Crusade) after all
There have been "good" Nazis in movies, but not many, like Michael Cain in the Eagle has landed and Captain von Stolberg in the Enemy below to name two.
As for people who want to own a Hitler that's fine, but you have to realise that some people like my wife and child and even myself might not be around today if that guy had his way. We are not Jewish, but we both have a grandparent that was, and I also have Roma ancestry, another race of people the Nazis were fond of exterminating, So you can understand that it might make some people uncomfortable if they saw such a high profile company selling him as a figure.
I would never say he should not be made though, as one thing I do hate is censorship.
Inheritance doesn't absolve you. He provided money and arms to the French to kill a slave uprising in Haiti. I'd hardly call that being against it's establishment. Especially when you consider what should have been an empathetic viewpoint coming off his own war against the enslavement of his people here. I'd love to hear that arguement being told to a black man he owned...
"You'll have to forgive Mr. Washington. He was just going with the flow. You just need to look at it from a different perspective. Years from now hindsight will wash him clean. This will all be justified, you'll see."
ProgMatinee
circlesendwheretheybegin
do you buy stuff made in China? If so your consumption of cheap goods basically continues the cycle of "slavery" for them. Does it really matter that they don't live on your property or that you aren't the whip holder? Just saying, at some point we are a reflection of the world we live in. Some people break free from it entirely, partially, or keep the status quo. Others make it slightly worse and some make it grossly worse.
If your argument is that George Washington's failure to break free from the pervasive trend at the time of slavery is equivalent to Adolf Hitler taking it upon himself to create genocide then you're off your rocker.
If your argument is that George Washington's failure to break free from the pervasive trend at the time of slavery is equivalent to Adolf Hitler taking it upon himself to create genocide then you're off your rocker.
From my perspective I can't see why anyone would collect anything else from that period, they had the most feared and fanatical army history has ever seen in the SS, ground breaking weapons and machinery, uniforms, armour, medals, imagery etc etc.
There are people who collect serial killer items, I would guess its a question of whether your offended by it or not.
I'm not offended by it so have no problem with collecting 3rd Reich militaria and 'real' SS items are my grail pieces.
That's not my arguement at all. My argument boils down to evil is shades of gray and is in the eye of the beholder. Devil is making the arguement that there is no such thing. It either is or it isn't. We just disagree. I think a black man owned by Washington would look at him no differently than a Jew being held by the Nazi's would look at Hitler. If the South had won the civil war and we lived in a world where slavery was "just a part of the times" it wouldn't make it any less evil, and it wouldn't make it any more justifiable for the person that could do something about it and doesn't.
ProgMatinee
circlesendwheretheybegin
a civilized society doesn't really judge whether a person is good or evil based off the beliefs of one individual does it? Especially historical events and people are weighed by the collective interpretation of that society, not by how one person felt about them.
I'm sure I'm hated by some individual out there. An ex girlfriend might loath me. Does that make me evil? Conversely I'm sure his mom loved Hitler, does her belief make him good?
Living 200+ years after the America revolution and 50+ years after WWII we are privaledged with information to understand whether Washington or Hitler were evil. I fail to see that Washington's imperfections (or merely failing to meet expectations of changing the times fast enough and on his own) made him evil in a societal context. Whereas it seems blatantly obvious now that Hitler was.
I'm sure I'm hated by some individual out there. An ex girlfriend might loath me. Does that make me evil? Conversely I'm sure his mom loved Hitler, does her belief make him good?
Living 200+ years after the America revolution and 50+ years after WWII we are privaledged with information to understand whether Washington or Hitler were evil. I fail to see that Washington's imperfections (or merely failing to meet expectations of changing the times fast enough and on his own) made him evil in a societal context. Whereas it seems blatantly obvious now that Hitler was.
ProgMatinee
circlesendwheretheybegin
I guess thats what kinda scares me about The Joker collectors and maybe people like yourself on the Nazi stuff.
"I collect Nazi items because I admire how they were feared and fanatical". If thats what you're saying that kinda freaks me out.
Next step: "I joined (fill in cult, religion, political party, etc) because they are to be feared."
But an individuals beliefs exist and to that person society's opinion does not matter. So if your ex thinks you are evil. Yes, you in fact are evil in her world. Like I said. It's all shaded gray.
As for hindsight and the length of time that passes. I don't think it makes any difference in context.
As for hindsight and the length of time that passes. I don't think it makes any difference in context.
ProgMatinee
circlesendwheretheybegin
Of course time couldn't matter if you're talking about "different worlds" because each "world" ceases to exist when that person dies. So per your model of "different worlds" Washington's slave's feelings are now irrelevant to the conversation of whether he was evil.
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The only thing i like about Nazi's are the helmets(M35-M42),how they wore runes on their uniforms,Panzer III's,Tiger I's and King Tigers(could match tanks fire power today),Stuka's,ME109's(though RAF's Spitfire ruled the skies),ME262(first jet plane ever and made it to service at the end of the war),GO 262 is basically where Americans got their steath bomber design from,Panzerfausts and Panzershrecks,MG42's--probally the most feared heavy machine gun of the war,made Allied forces shhit their pants.
Now with all that said, they still could not stop Canadian forces from landing on Juno beach and climbing a cliff with rope to reach the top and kick their ***** deep into France, same with British and American forces..we may not have had the best weapons but, we had more spirit to succeed.
Now with all that said, they still could not stop Canadian forces from landing on Juno beach and climbing a cliff with rope to reach the top and kick their ***** deep into France, same with British and American forces..we may not have had the best weapons but, we had more spirit to succeed.
ProgMatinee
circlesendwheretheybegin
good beats evil everytime in the long run.
I'm sure their relatives feel the same way.
edit: In all seriousness though, relationship could or could not effect anyones view and is a footnote to the point. The example can change and it's still the same thing. Plug in Christianity vs. Homosexuality for Washington and Hitler.
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Really?
People have been fighting each other since the dawn of the human race...
I don't think it will end anytime soon, and evil will always exists unfortunately...
Yes, I collect Nazi items for those exact reasons......notoriety. Your 'next step' crap isn't worthy of a response.
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Luckly for Europe the 3rd Reich was on the back foot from fighting Total War on all fronts. In the cold light of day if it wasn't for the conflict on the Eastern front then the D-Day landing would have failed.
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This is very true Zoidberg, also Hitler was told to move more divisions to France but, ignored his General's pleads.If the Third Reich didn't waste so much of their resources trying to take Russia then, i think they would have won the war, hell the U-boats almost ended it earlier during war time.
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ProgMatinee
circlesendwheretheybegin
But those same relatives could also feel "grateful" for what Washington did for the eventual freedom of blacks in America.
Their ancestor could have easily been a slave to some slave holder that fought to perpetuate slavery forever rather than Washington who for whatever the motives actually led the army that would establsih the government that would eventually free slaves less than 100 years later.
I doubt most decendents of slaves thinks of George Washington as a evil man. As a matter of fact at least 1 slave family thought enough of George Washington to name their son George Washington Carver...
I do think time is sorta relative to deciding whether someone was evil or not as the interpretation at the time is based on what we are experiencing ourselves...I guess this is your point that whatever we as individuals feel determines our reality, but the "real world" acts and reacts as a collection of all the independent realities which when speaking about it from a 3rd POV the collective opinion probably holds more water than a subjective individual interpretation.
But those same relatives could also feel "grateful" for what Washington did for the eventual freedom of blacks in America.
Their ancestor could have easily been a slave to some slave holder that fought to perpetuate slavery forever rather than Washington who for whatever the motives actually led the army that would establsih the government that would eventually free slaves less than 100 years later.
I doubt most decendents of slaves thinks of George Washington as a evil man. As a matter of fact at least 1 slave family thought enough of George Washington to name their son George Washington Carver...
I do think time is sorta relative to deciding whether someone was evil or not as the interpretation at the time is based on what we are experiencing ourselves...I guess this is your point that whatever we as individuals feel determines our reality, but the "real world" acts and reacts as a collection of all the independent realities. WTF am I talking about..
I would agree. I don't think all slave descendants feel that way, but if one does, it's still reality for that individual, and because it's not everyone's reality it doesn't become untrue for them. Which is the only thing I'm getting at. The whole Washington vs. Hitler, Jew hunting vs. slavery, it is all just an interchangeable example of what my point is.
All this talk makes me want to pick up Arthur Millers "The Crucible" again. I guess some good can come from internet debate.
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