Indiana Jones 5 and the bermuda triangle?

[IrishJedi]

The UFO/Alien/Alternate Dimension stuff in KOTCS is literally the least of my issues with the film. I personally don't have a problem with that stuff at all, except for perhaps actually showing the CG alien at the end.

What I don't like is the pacing, tone, and characterization once we get to the Russian camp in Peru. That along with the overly silly stuff (Marion's antics, the Monkey scene, etc) and Indy losing his edge are what ultimately weakened the film. But it's still over-hated and ultimately on par with TLC as the lesser films in the franchise.

 

[jediknight120]

What I don't like is the pacing, tone, and characterization once we get to the Russian camp in Peru. That along with the overly silly stuff (Marion's antics, the Monkey scene, etc) and Indy losing his edge are what ultimately weakened the film. But it's still over-hated and ultimately on par with TLC as the lesser films in the franchise.

 

[dragon_around]

How could you say TLC is a lesser film in the series?

wtf

 

[The Josh]

As I've said before TLC is my all time fave just above Raiders. I actually like KOTCS more than TOD.

 

[Mad Old Lu]

I'm with Irish. For me, TLC was a huge step down way back in '89. I'd say CS is pretty much on par with TLC. I really did enjoy CS and I even rank it above TLC, despite the great chemistry with Connery and Ford. But none of them will come close to Raiders for me.

The A-Team movie only had one way to go: up. I loved the show when I was a kid, but I recognize now that it was a bad show that had charismatic characters. So I'm glad the movie captured that (although I haven't seen it yet). Rambo did the sequel right because Stallone took the character very seriously and handled the movie with honor and respect. He knew what the original one had going for it and managed to continue the spirit of it. Unfortunately, that's where Lucas/Spielberg messed up. They played up the wrong angle with CS (and even TLC), deciding the fun stuff was more important than the intensity, perils and danger of Raiders (and TOD). They just didn't take Indy seriously enough.

 

[Agent0028]

With all due respect to both A-TEAM & RAMBO (both of which I also enjoy) neither of those franchises has the pedigree of anything even approaching RAIDERS to live up to.

And I still contend that KOTCS is really no big step down from TLC.

I agree. I don't think A-Team or Rambo are quite as popular in a wide range of audiences. Indiana Jones is pretty popular across the board. And I think people set their expectations too high.

And yet you're left scratching your head after seeing a UFO fly out of an Aztec temple and vanish into another dimension.

At least TLC's ending was tangible.

A 2,000 year old cup filled with water can heal a gunshot wound but you can't take it outside the cave, okay technically past some magic seal, or the entire place crumbles is more tangible than a UFO? Is ghosts flying out of the Ark and melting faces more or less tangible than the cup? And where does pulling out a flaming heart without disturbing the skin and leaving the victim alive fall in the tangibility scale?

The last three may have been better endings, but if you ask me which of the four is more real world I'm going with the UFO.

As I've said before TLC is my all time fave just above Raiders. I actually like KOTCS more than TOD.

I like TLC alot as well. Not more than ROTLA, but I like it more than TOD.

 

[IrishJedi]

How could you say TLC is a lesser film in the series?

wtf

Simple. Because it is.

That's not to say I think it's a bad movie or I don't like it, because I do. It just has its own set of issues (like KOTCS) and is ultimately a wart on the ass of RAIDERS, which is probably as close to a perfect Action-Adventure movie as we'll ever see.

As for TOD... it too is clearly an inferior film to RAIDERS. But I love it. It's my second favorite in the series, and that's because it is the one that most fully embraces the pulp aspects of the 30s serials that inspired the franchise.

 

[thenammagazine]

Simple. Because it is.

That's not to say I think it's a bad movie or I don't like it, because I do. It just has its own set of issues (like KOTCS) and is ultimately a wart on the ass of RAIDERS, which is probably as close to a perfect Action-Adventure movie as we'll ever see.

As for TOD... it too is clearly an inferior film to RAIDERS. But I love it. It's my second favorite in the series, and that's because it is the one that most fully embraces the pulp aspects of the 30s serials that inspired the franchise.

I agree with this. When I was younger, TLC was better. But watching it through the eyes of an adult, I now like TOD better and it has seated itself right behind ROTLA. That's probably solely due to the overall adult theme of the movie (back when Speilberg still had testicles).

A 2,000 year old cup filled with water can heal a gunshot wound but you can't take it outside the cave, okay technically past some magic seal, or the entire place crumbles is more tangible than a UFO? Is ghosts flying out of the Ark and melting faces more or less tangible than the cup? And where does pulling out a flaming heart without disturbing the skin and leaving the victim alive fall in the tangibility scale?

The last three may have been better endings, but if you ask me which of the four is more real world I'm going with the UFO.

As far as the "tangibility" remark, what I meant was that Raiders started a theme with religious artifacts that pretty much played through the first three films. TOD still fits that with the Shankara stones. So yes, while there was a "supernatural" aspect to it, they were still grounded in religious artifacts. KOTCS kinda added that in as an after-the-fact deal and jumped the shark with the "aliens" and the UFO at the end. George got what he was looking for, I guess, because it did feel a bit like watching 50's SciFi. Unfortunately, to me, that's the polar opposite of what the Indy franchise is about. He's supposed to be digging up the past, not standing on the threshold of the future. What's next? Timetravel?

 

[IrishJedi]

I agree with this. When I was younger, TLC was better. But watching it through the eyes of an adult, I now like TOD better and it has seated itself right behind ROTLA. That's probably solely due to the overall adult theme of the movie (back when Speilberg still had testicles).

Not only did Spielberg have balls then (when it comes to pulp violence) but Lucas was actually in a very dark place when developing and filming TOD. He had just gone through a very traumatic divorce (his wife left him for one of the younger Skywalker Ranch workers) and that is actually the main reason why TOD was so much darker. Also, the scene in which a man's still-beating heart was ripped out of his chest was no subtle coincidence.

 

[Wake]

I don't think KOTCS was as bad as people made it out to be. Personally I think the problem with the movie is not those involved in making it, but with us fans. It's damn near impossible to recapture 20 year old magic.

This is a FANTASTIC point that doesn't get enough mention or credance. When most of us saw the original Indiana Jones movies (or original Star Wars triology for that matter) we were kids. I remember being all of 7 years old and seeing Temple of Doom in the theater with my best friend and our moms. I remember that experience so vividly and fondly that ToD remains my favorite indy Pic of ALL TIME. I was 30 or so when KOTCS came out. In my mid twenties for the SW Prequels. I can unequivicably say that I enjoyed those movies MUUUUCH less than i would have had I been 7.

The thing is as we age are tastes become more sophisticated. Our tolerance for cliche and contrivance wanes. Our immagination is ALOT more beholden to logic and explanation. We suspend less of our disbelief.

I'm pretty sure this is why my father (as he's told me) walked out of Raiders of the Lost Ark when he went to see it during its original theatrical release.

I think for this reason any sequel or remake of a classic film or franchise will undoubtably suffer harsh criticisms at the hands of critics and fans alike. Most of these films are doing EXACTLY (or at least close to) what the originals did. But the films HAVEN'T grown up with us. The films haven't matched our maturaion or level of sophistication... because to do that would change the VERY KIND of film it is.

I hope I made my point clearly.


What's interesting is that young generations will often choose the more recent manifestations (prequels, kotcs, etc.) because of modern filmmaking techniques... THey don't have patience for the 'practical' hollywood.


EDIT: I will say that Sly Stallone HAS managed to mature his two series quite well (Rambo, Rocky)... he actually brought the films to a more natural evolved place where they were STILL satisfying as sequels but ultimately DIFFERENT enough that they didnt feel like rehashes of the same stuff over and over. My theory for the success? He acts in his own films. He understands how his characters have changed and aged (not just physically) because he's going through the exact same thing... and aging actor no longer at the top.

 

[Mad Old Lu]

I'm sure age has something to do with it. You're right. For a lot of us, Raiders and SW hit at the perfect time of our formative years. However, many of the current sequels (the SW prequels and CS) still feel geared towards a much younger audience that the originals did. Melting faces and hearts ripped out are much more intense visuals than a person covered in ants or Cate's eyes sizzling a teeny bit (or even Donovan aging to a cadaver).

That aside, the pacing and storytelling in Raiders simply feels more intense and dangerous. The film stock is gritty and sunbleached. Real blood is shed. It feels messier and therefore a little more realistic that the much slicker sequels. Kinda like how a musician will have an awesome first album with some real balls to it. And once the musician is popular, the next album is overproduced and loses any of the original's energy.

Raiders also feels like more than just an Indiana Jones movie. The mcguffin feels more important and intrinsic to the story than the other mcguffins. Two key scenes that I think elevate the material above just an Indy movie is when they cut to the Ark in the crate in the Bantu Wind, and the swastikas burn off. And of course, the fantastic ending with the warehouse. The movie leaves you with the Ark, instead of with happy villagers, riding off into the sunset or at a wedding. That final scene gives the movie that sense of foreboding, that all has not been resolved, that there is more to this world. And it leaves you wanting more.

 

[IrishJedi]

It's not just nostalgia, though.

Here's a litmus test: Go ask any film professor, film historian, filmmaker, movie critic, etc. which movie in the series is the best one. I guarantee you RAIDERS will get at least 95% of the vote, and that TLC won't fare very well.

 

[The Josh]

It's not just nostalgia, though.

Here's a litmus test: Go ask any film professor, film historian, filmmaker, movie critic, etc. which movie in the series is the best one. I guarantee you RAIDERS will get at least 95% of the vote, and that TLC won't fare very well.

Thing is while they have an opinion of which is better it has zero effect on mine. I like TLC better because it gives me the best movie going experience just nudging Raiders. All those folks might like Raiders more and thats fine but for me TLC is a better film.

This isn't which scientist do you believe based the facts of global warming. They're still just movie fans like the rest of us. I take their opinion for the same amount as I do you, me, nam, Dave, etc.

 

[BadMoon]

All of this McMuffin talk is making me hungry.

As for my opinion? I'm sure die hard Indy fans will hate my opinion.

1 TOD
2 TLC
3 Raiders














































1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 KOTCS

 

[jediknight120]

I think Raiders is the better film, but TLC is my favorite because of the chemistry with Ford and Connery.

And I'm going to get stoned for this but I like KotCS more than TOD.

 

[IrishJedi]

As for my opinion? I'm sure die hard Indy fans will hate my opinion.

We won't hate it. We'll just laugh at it.


I kid.

 

[The Josh]

I think Raiders is the better film, but TLC is my favorite because of the chemistry with Ford and Connery.

And I'm going to get stoned for this but I like KotCS more than TOD.

See sometimes I'm like this. I think Raiders might be a better film but I like TLC more.

TOD while I really like the film and all but it doesn't hit the same spot as the others do.

 

[BadMoon]

We won't hate it. We'll just laugh at it.


I kid.

I walk to the beat of my own drum. My only problem is, I can't play the drums.

 

[Something Sexy]

Raiders is probably overall the best film but I like ToD the best.

 

[BadMoon]

Raiders is probably overall the best film but I like ToD the best.