Is there such a thing as free will?

[Darth Madden]

I honestly do believe in free will.

with this gaming culture/internet culture It is pretty easy to see how free will is real.
Men that spend 10 hours glued to a play station, wasting time, days after days, months after months.
I know someone like that. From the moment he wakes up to the moment he goes to sleep he is either playing games, watching tv or going online. He doesn't work, he doesn't go out with friends, he just eats, sleeps and looks at a screen.

If there was no free will, how could he waste his life like that?
He is Literally wasting his days doing nothing. accumulating fake points on a pointless game. Nothing he does has any value to society. He has been like that for years now. The only time he goes out is to eat at restaurants or to buy more games.

So, when I look at his life, how could free will Not exist?
If we have some kind of plan, if we are destined for something... If our lives are written out for us, How can this guy waste his existence like that?
And he is not the only one, many people do this. they get addicted to tv or the computer. It just makes no sense how if we are supposed to have a destiny this guy is literally dying in front of a screen.. I mean, Honestly I can't see how free will is not real when so many people are wasting their lives with drugs or other crap like that. They add nothing to society, there is no difference whether they are alive or dead. They dont' contribute anything to anyone else's lives.

What Kind of f-- up destiny is that?

Because one day the house next door will catch on fire and since he is home he will rescue the mom and young kid, and maybe that kid will grow up and find a cure for cancer.

 

[crows]

I dont mean to talk about religion or philosophy or anything. This is just purely from what I have witnessed. Purely from experience.

How can we have a destiny or not have free will when there are homeless people addicted to crack literally wasting their lives away.
How on Earth can that be their destiny? to sit on a bench and talk to imaginary ghosts. Every day begging for money to get more drugs.
It just really baffles me that that's what it was planned for them. I can't accept that. We choose what we do, we choose our paths.

 

[shocktrooper_au]

You have a destiny and it is your free will to fulfil it or not

 

[galmando]

Lot's of of thoughts and opinions being expressed in a healthy manner, me likey!

However, I think the initial point of the question that I raised is somewhat lost or perhaps misunderstood (or no-one cares...)

When I talk about free will, I don't mean in the sense 'do we have a destiny, a fate, are we all part of a plan?'

Having plan requires a planner, a planner on the scale of the cosmos pretty much refers to god, and that isn't type area i'm questioning.

Free will is essentially your ability to make decisions, you can call it consciousness, the mind, the spirit or the soul. Whatever you refer to this as, in this case consciousness, it allows you think, generate ideas, it allows you to formulate questions.

It is often considered this etheral entity that exists within you, a non-tangible object.

However, for consciousness to exist, it must have a physical, tangible quality.

My question, I suppose, is this, is this tangible entity that I call consciousness an exception to the laws of physics of this universe in which case is it unbound by cause and effect, or, like every other piece of matter, is it ruled by action/reaction, cause and effect.

In that regards, could your thoughts and experiences have played out any differently than they did since the big bang itself, or was it a mathematical certainty that events play out the way that they do, with only the illusion of control?

 

[galmando]

Because one day the house next door will catch on fire and since he is home he will rescue the mom and young kid, and maybe that kid will grow up and find a cure for cancer.

For me this is almost a kind of 'selective destiny'

Equally that kid could grow to offer nothing of any really quality to society at large, or he could be come an evil dictator

But no-one would be referring back to the man who saved him in those instances.

Only if he accomplishes something great does it seem we justify or qualify it as 'destiny'

 

[crows]

Lot's of of thoughts and opinions being expressed in a healthy manner, me likey!

However, I think the initial point of the question that I raised is somewhat lost or perhaps misunderstood (or no-one cares...)

When I talk about free will, I don't mean in the sense 'do we have a destiny, a fate, are we all part of a plan?'

Having plan requires a planner, a planner on the scale of the cosmos pretty much refers to god, and that isn't type area i'm questioning.

Free will is essentially your ability to make decisions, you can call it consciousness, the mind, the spirit or the soul. Whatever you refer to this as, in this case consciousness, it allows you think, generate ideas, it allows you to formulate questions.

It is often considered this etheral entity that exists within you, a non-tangible object.

However, for consciousness to exist, it must have a physical, tangible quality.

My question, I suppose, is this, is this tangible entity that I call consciousness an exception to the laws of physics of this universe in which case is it unbound by cause and effect, or, like every other piece of matter, is it ruled by action/reaction, cause and effect.

In that regards, could your thoughts and experiences have played out any differently than they did since the big bang itself, or was it a mathematical certainty that events play out the way that they do, with only the illusion of control?

 

[crows]

You have a destiny and it is your free will to fulfil it or not

but there are so many different paths you can take, how do you know which one is your destiny?

It's like if your destiny is to become a singer and you are really good but because of society's influence (telling you musicians don't make it)
you end up as some lawyer or something because you thought you could make more money or something? Or end up as a nurse because your dad was a doctor and you had to follow. What happens to that destiny?

 

[devilof76]

However, for consciousness to exist, it must have a physical, tangible quality.

My question, I suppose, is this, is this tangible entity that I call consciousness an exception to the laws of physics of this universe in which case is it unbound by cause and effect, or, like every other piece of matter, is it ruled by action/reaction, cause and effect.

Consciousness is not a physical/material entity.

Causality is not limited to deterministic action, although some conscious action is deterministic (i.e., instinct).

In that regards, could your thoughts and experiences have played out any differently than they did since the big bang itself, or was it a mathematical certainty that events play out the way that they do, with only the illusion of control?

Yes to the former, no to the latter.

 

[Blackthornone]

Um, not everything is physical.



I have to wonder how you even start.

Then you are admitting that there is spiritual. Spirituality is the outside force that acts upon matter that alters the trajectory of inertia.

I mean physical in the broad sense, which includes chemicals and even protons. Physical includes everything that can be measured objectively.
The physical world is the seen world, even if it takes an electron microscope to see it.

 

[galmando]

Consciousness is not a physical/material entity.

That depends on what consciousness is though.

Is consciouness made up of various other systems within the body that we collectively label under one name, in a similar way that the senses are really 5 seperate feelings/senses collected under a name, the senses

in which case, could each of the components of what creates consciousness not be a physical, matariel entity.

When we dream, we see images in our head, those images may not exist as a photo does, but they are certainly a physical entity, stemming from elctrical impulses firing around the brain

 

[Lejuan]

Because one day the house next door will catch on fire and since he is home he will rescue the mom and young kid, and maybe that kid will grow up and find a cure for cancer.

I like the scenario, but that's more fortuitous than destiny.

 

[devilof76]

Then you are admitting that there is spiritual. Spirituality is the outside force that acts upon matter that alters the trajectory of inertia.

I'm talking about consciousness, which has the ability to effect matter, but it doesn't come from outside the physical universe. It is an attribute of certain material entities, specifically organisms with locomotive faculties developed enough that they require a means to guide their actions. That doesn't mean it's exempt from the laws of physics. It means that determinism is not inherent in existence qua existence.

All things in the universe are technically 'physical' if you mean that they follow the laws of physics. They are not all 'material'. Matter is deterministically causal. Consciousness is deterministically causal in the lower (simpler) organisms. Volition is a form of consciousness that is not deterministic.

That depends on what consciousness is though.

Is consciouness made up of various other systems within the body that we collectively label under one name, in a similar way that the senses are really 5 seperate feelings/senses collected under a name, the senses

in which case, could each of the components of what creates consciousness not be a physical, matariel entity.

When we dream, we see images in our head, those images may not exist as a photo does, but they are certainly a physical entity, stemming from elctrical impulses firing around the brain

Consciousness is what experiences the information provided by the senses; it is not the sensory mechanisms, or the nervous system as a whole. Same for imagination/dreams, or any internal states. The electrical signals mean nothing until they're experienced by the mind, which is not itself a material phenomenon.

 

[galmando]

Consciousness is what experiences the information provided by the senses; it is not the sensory mechanisms, or the nervous system as a whole. Same for imagination/dreams, or any internal states. The electrical signals mean nothing until they're experienced by the mind, which is not itself a material phenomenon.

I think it's still debateable as to whether or not the mind is a physical entity composed of matter

A mental image would appear to be etheral, but it is possible that some form of matter composes the image in your brain/mind

Again, the idea that the mind and the brain are seperate entities is also debateable and not necessarily proven either way

I think this is stepping into the Mind-Body Problem and dualism

 

[devilof76]

Consciousness is axiomatic, so proof isn't an issue.

As for the difference between the mind and body, all you need to do is observe a dead, in tact brain (or a computer) to grasp that they're not one and the same. However, for consciousness to function, it requires a material nervous system. Mind and body require integration (consciousness does not exist in a vacuum), but again, to say that consciousness is mere matter ignores the nature of consciousness. It's a different natural phenomenon entirely. What attributes of matter does knowing possess? Is awareness spatial? Does it have measurable dimensions? Can you touch it? A lot of the confusion regarding dualism arises on account of people making extremely wrong assumptions regarding consciousness (attempting to reduce it to a material phenomenon being paramount among them).

 

[Blackthornone]

I'm talking about consciousness, which has the ability to effect matter, but it doesn't come from outside the physical universe. It is an attribute of certain material entities, specifically organisms with locomotive faculties developed enough that they require a means to guide their actions. That doesn't mean it's exempt from the laws of physics. It means that determinism is not inherent in existence qua existence.

All things in the universe are technically 'physical' if you mean that they follow the laws of physics. They are not all 'material'. Matter is deterministically causal. Consciousness is deterministically causal in the lower (simpler) organisms. Volition is a form of consciousness that is not deterministic.


Consciousness is what experiences the information provided by the senses; it is not the sensory mechanisms, or the nervous system as a whole. Same for imagination/dreams, or any internal states. The electrical signals mean nothing until they're experienced by the mind, which is not itself a material phenomenon.

If consciousness truly was derived entirely from the physical, then consciousness would logically also have to be physical. If consciousness is not physical, it cannot be of physical origin. It must be spiritual.
While brains are physical, the consciousness that acts through them is not, because consciousness is not from the physical.
The brain is like a car, and consciousness is like the driver. A better brain can allow consciousness to do more, just like a better car can allow a driver to do more.
A better brain does not guarantee better performance, just like a better car does not guarantee better performance from an inexperienced or unskilled driver. A very experienced or skilled driver can do more with a worse car than a poor driver can in a much better car.

Studies have been done comparing world class athletes and merely great athletes. There is very little if any physiological difference, and yet the difference in performance is quite considerable. This is because the source of the performance discrepancy is not derived from the physical.

 

[devilof76]

Where's your spiritual origin? If everything has to be physical (or material; you need to pick one or the other), where do you get a spiritual dimension?

You're positing conditions for which there are no grounds. Consciousness is part of the universe in which laws of physics rule. It is not material. How does that demand that consciousness come from someplace where the laws of physics don't rule? And if it did come from such a place, how does it possibly interact with a universe in which it has nothing in common?

 

[devilof76]

Living organisms are fundamentally unlike all of the other entities in the observable universe. Are they from another dimension too?

 

[galmando]

Consciousness is axiomatic, so proof isn't an issue

I don’t think it’s fair to say that, simply because it is evident that we have conscious, that proof is not required to say whether or not the mind or consciousness is physical or composed of matter/energy (which are effectively the same thing)

What attributes of matter does knowing possess? Is awareness spatial? Does it have measurable dimensions? Can you touch it?

As of right now, I cannot see any answers to these questions, but does that mean the answer is no? Certainly not. No answer can be assumed, but certainly speculated.

If consciousness truly was derived entirely from the physical, then consciousness would logically also have to be physical. If consciousness is not physical, it cannot be of physical origin. It must be spiritual.

This is an interesting point, living organisms do originate from a physical world, therefore consciousness could not exist were the universe to contain matter for living organisms to exist.

But to say that, if it is not physical, it stems from a spiritual realm/dimension is an assumption, what is the basis of this assumption?

Living organisms are fundamentally unlike all of the other entities in the observable universe. Are they from another dimension too?

At this point I’m not entirely certain what your opinion is on the matter, are you saying that the mind exists of a substance or entity that is not physical or material that can operate outside of the know laws of physics, but isn’t spiritual?

If not, do you have theories or ideas to where is stems?

When I look at the bigger picture, based on what you have said, I’m seeing an entire Universe growing form multiple chain reactions that can be calculated via computer models that predict the life span of stars and galaxies and what the past may have been like with the exception to life itself which exists outside of this cycle (to some degree) – and that just seems too convenient. Is life that special?

 

[devilof76]

Life is teleological. Is there any other goal directed process in the universe?

 

[devilof76]

And what I'm saying is that the mind is not material, but operates according to the laws of existence. Call them laws of physics if it helps.