I've changed my mind about KOTCS

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I have no good feelings from that midnight showing...just never quite felt like Indy to me. Not the worst movie ever, but disappointing for an Indy sequel for me. But I love the original trilogy, and some people don't even like any of the Indy movies, except Raiders?!...so everybody's opinion is different, and I respect those who did enjoy and like KOTCS as much as the other ones.
 
Even if you don't like it, you can't deny the amount of work that went into that film. I just recently finished watching the second disc for the deluxe DVD and WOW! They really did some impressive work.
 
I just recently finished watching the second disc for the deluxe DVD and WOW! They really did some impressive work.

I was most surprised to see how much of the physical action was actually performed by Harrison Ford. People tend to forget that when you're a 65-year-old man, it's no small feat to be repeatedly thrown to the ground, dragged through car windows, and knocked around in fight scenes.

They also employed far more practical sets and effects than everyone gave them credit for using. It wasn't uncommon to see people slamming the film for being nothing but "greenscreen"- but that simply wasn't true. Two things no one seemed willing to acknowledge were, A) It's been 20 years since Last Crusade, and B) The original Indy films were not "old school" at the time. (Even if they had been, what constitutes "old school" in 2008 is still not going to be what it was 20 years ago.)

It's interesting to note how differently today's audiences view those first three Indy movies. Unlike today, Raiders was not considered an overly-serious movie in 1981. It was a non-stop rollercoaster ride and contained a great deal of humor. In short, it was fun- especially in comparison to the gritty action films of the 1970's. Today we think nothing of the movie's finale, but it was pretty over-the-top at the time.

I think the problem so many younger viewers had with Indy 4, is that Spielberg basically made it for 1989 audiences. If this same film had been released then- or even in the early 90's- I doubt there would've been a backlash. Gags such as the library, rubber tree, and fridge are straight out of the 80's, and would've likely gone over extremely well.
 
The first time I saw it I went with an old friend (who also happens to be my brother in law), we're both old Indy fans (not as hardcore as some here... but hey... who is) and we both enjoyed it, he loved it, I thought it was OK.... (OK, OK the monkeys pissed me off), but I had no problem with the Aliens ( I personally believe there is more chance of aliens beneath out feet than deities trapped in caskets), but I admit a little of the spirit of Indy was missing.
For me it’s all about flavour, it’s why (and I know I’m almost singular in this) but it’s why TPM is my fave of the SW prequels… it tasted like a SW movie… AOTC was a dirty mess start to finish and ROTS was too dark.
So in comparison I felt KOTCS tasted far more Indy, so I was relatively happy!
 
Raiders was no less absurd than KOTCS when you compare the injured arm ocean swim + submarine joyride to the fridge. I think the main difference that rubs people the wrong way is that KOTCS actually *shows* you the absurdity in vivid detail.

In Raiders you just see Indy pop up on the sub, wave to the crew of the merchant ship, and then hide as the camera fades to a red line traveling to the island. No open water swim with a bloody arm, no lingering shots of him hanging on top of the sub while being thrashed with waves.

I think if Spielberg filmed KOTCS in 1981 we'd see Indy run into the house as the sirens went off, look around frantically, then stop in the kitchen and look up and down at something off screen and do his classic furrow. Then cut to the nuclear blast decimating the "village" as debri shoots out in all directions. The camera pans across rubble hundreds of yards away and half buried is a battered refrigerator. Camera stops on the fridge just for a moment as Indy bashes open the door, climbs to the hill and looks at the nuke. As the audience we'd realize something pretty far fetched happened but without the extended footage of him pulling out all the drawers, trying to close himself inside, and then flying through the air and bouncing all over the place I think we'd just accept it and get sucked right into the next scene without a second thought.
 
I think if Spielberg filmed KOTCS in 1981 we'd see Indy run into the house as the sirens went off, look around frantically, then stop in the kitchen and look up and down at something off screen and do his classic furrow. Then cut to the nuclear blast decimating the "village" as debri shoots out in all directions. The camera pans across rubble hundreds of yards away and half buried is a battered refrigerator. Camera stops on the fridge just for a moment as Indy bashes open the door, climbs to the hill and looks at the nuke. As the audience we'd realize something pretty far fetched happened but without the extended footage of him pulling out all the drawers, trying to close himself inside, and then flying through the air and bouncing all over the place I think we'd just accept it and get sucked right into the next scene without a second thought.


I agree 100% with that!

Websites like imdb.com have those "movie goofs" lists. There are some pretty interesting goofs in movies, but when I see those ones like "cup is in right hand, then in next scene, cup is in left hand" I just wanna say ...maybe he just switched the cup to the other hand while the camera was on the other guy and we didn't see it!

I think it's the fact that people these days over analyze the least little things in movies so much. It's actually caused a shift in film making to where the imagination that film always made us rely on is slowly vanishing.

Look at Star Wars... We really didn't have to see Chewbacca giving Yoda a piggy-back ride to know that they both exist in the same galaxy, did we? A fanboys idea of a "loose end" usually just ends up being something that is very unimportant to the actual story.

Having every little detail explained is one of those current trends that I hope movies move away from. Blade Runner is such a classic film because many people (including the ones who worked on the film) still disagree about alot of things in the film. That's because alot of things were left open for the viewer to process for themselves.
 
I agree 100% with that!

Websites like imdb.com have those "movie goofs" lists. There are some pretty interesting goofs in movies, but when I see those ones like "cup is in right hand, then in next scene, cup is in left hand" I just wanna say ...maybe he just switched the cup to the other hand while the camera was on the other guy and we didn't see it!

I think it's the fact that people these days over analyze the least little things in movies so much. It's actually caused a shift in film making to where the imagination that film always made us rely on is slowly vanishing.

Look at Star Wars... We really didn't have to see Chewbacca giving Yoda a piggy-back ride to know that they both exist in the same galaxy, did we? A fanboys idea of a "loose end" usually just ends up being something that is very unimportant to the actual story.

Having every little detail explained is one of those current trends that I hope movies move away from. Blade Runner is such a classic film because many people (including the ones who worked on the film) still disagree about alot of things in the film. That's because alot of things were left open for the viewer to process for themselves.

Yea a lot of those goofs probably aren't true goofs it is just poor editing.
 
Watched this for the second time over the weekend (first was in the the theater on opening day). Enjoyed it then, but I think I enjoyed it more now. I forgot how much I enjoyed seeing how much Indy had changed and become more like his dad over time. In between my 2 viewings of this movie I became a father, so I think it stuck out a little more to me now since I see myself being more and more like my dad every day.

I will say the first time I saw it something about it bugged me that i couldn't put my finger on. But this time I figured out what that was...this movie didn't have the creepy factor that the other Indy movies did. There is really no point in it that I'm tempted to look away, or am grossed out about. Normally bugs really get me (I can't even watch that scene in TOD, lol) but the ants didn't seem creepy at all because i knew they were cg.

But overall I still rank this one where i did when it first came out. Behind Raiders and TLC, but in front of ToD.
 
I was most surprised to see how much of the physical action was actually performed by Harrison Ford. People tend to forget that when you're a 65-year-old man, it's no small feat to be repeatedly thrown to the ground, dragged through car windows, and knocked around in fight scenes.

They also employed far more practical sets and effects than everyone gave them credit for using. It wasn't uncommon to see people slamming the film for being nothing but "greenscreen"- but that simply wasn't true. Two things no one seemed willing to acknowledge were, A) It's been 20 years since Last Crusade, and B) The original Indy films were not "old school" at the time. (Even if they had been, what constitutes "old school" in 2008 is still not going to be what it was 20 years ago.)

It's interesting to note how differently today's audiences view those first three Indy movies. Unlike today, Raiders was not considered an overly-serious movie in 1981. It was a non-stop rollercoaster ride and contained a great deal of humor. In short, it was fun- especially in comparison to the gritty action films of the 1970's. Today we think nothing of the movie's finale, but it was pretty over-the-top at the time.

I think the problem so many younger viewers had with Indy 4, is that Spielberg basically made it for 1989 audiences. If this same film had been released then- or even in the early 90's- I doubt there would've been a backlash. Gags such as the library, rubber tree, and fridge are straight out of the 80's, and would've likely gone over extremely well.

People tend to forget just how old Harrison was in the first three. Wasn't there like only 8 years difference between him and Connery? Once you realize that, you can understand how it wouldn't be that far of a stretch for him to still pull off a lot of his own stunts at 65.
 
I think if Spielberg filmed KOTCS in 1981 we'd see Indy run into the house as the sirens went off, look around frantically, then stop in the kitchen and look up and down at something off screen and do his classic furrow. Then cut to the nuclear blast decimating the "village" as debri shoots out in all directions. The camera pans across rubble hundreds of yards away and half buried is a battered refrigerator. Camera stops on the fridge just for a moment as Indy bashes open the door, climbs to the hill and looks at the nuke. As the audience we'd realize something pretty far fetched happened but without the extended footage of him pulling out all the drawers, trying to close himself inside, and then flying through the air and bouncing all over the place I think we'd just accept it and get sucked right into the next scene without a second thought.

Great point, Khev! That sounds like it would improve the scene 100%! Personally, I was fine with the whole movie, but I can see that if Steven had put forth a little more effort into making the movie feel more grounded or serious, it would have been perfectly possible. My guess is that Lucas had a big say in everything and Spielberg just went along with it. He's always said that Indy was Lucas's baby.

Another thing about how/why Raiders is still the best of the bunch: I was reading the "Making of the IJ movies" book and read about how the first one was done on the cheap. Yes, they did have a decent budget, but they weren't going all-out. They wanted it made cheap, fast, and down & dirty. They even cut out a bunch of scenes because of budget and time, some that would make their way into Temple of Doom. It makes me think that both Lucas and Spielberg work better with limits and constraints which make them think more creatively. Like Khev said, it forces them to NOT show things, which ultimately helps the movie. Jaws was brilliant because he didn't show the shark for the first half of the movie. SW was brilliant because Lucas didn't feel compelled to show every single alien and environment and was forced to focus on the story. It's like being surrounded by "yes men". Every whim they can come up with can be realized because they have the money and clout to do it. It would have been nice for them to think, "maybe we should cut the CGI monkeys and prairie dogs because of the budget..."
 
Great point, Khev! That sounds like it would improve the scene 100%!

Thanks. :) Of course its much easier to be an armchair editor when a great director like Steven Spielberg already did all the shooting with a veteran film crew. I still like KOTCS, I like it a lot in fact. I really think it was just a few minor modifications from being generally hailed as being at least as good as TOD and TLC.

I think the Mac character should have been the "Satipo" of KOTCS and died in the chicken run in the warehouse. He was completely unnecessary for the rest of the movie. Trim the fridge scene as I mentioned and have a big fight on top of the Jungle Cutter with Russians falling into the blades left and right and I think us fans of the film would be in the majority instead of the other way around.
 
Thanks. :) Of course its much easier to be an armchair editor when a great director like Steven Spielberg already did all the shooting with a veteran film crew. I still like KOTCS, I like it a lot in fact. I really think it was just a few minor modifications from being generally hailed as being at least as good as TOD and TLC.

I think the Mac character should have been the "Satipo" of KOTCS and died in the chicken run in the warehouse. He was completely unnecessary for the rest of the movie. Trim the fridge scene as I mentioned and have a big fight on top of the Jungle Cutter with Russians falling into the blades left and right and I think us fans of the film would be in the majority instead of the other way around.

Mac was just terrible as a villain. He's the worst, flattest Indy villain ever. Even the monkey in Raiders had more range as a character. I agree with getting rid of him, but then how would the Russians track Indy to the saucer?

I just popped in the DVD last night and watched everything up until the jungle cutter chase. I think overall there are good aspects to this movie, and KOTCS has much more in common with the original trilogy than say, the Prequel Star Wars movies have with their predecessors.

But that jungle camp scene just wallows. Coming as it does right in the middle of the movie, it's a terrible spot for the movie to fall apart, but having watched the film several times now, it's where I lose interest every time.
 
I cringed every time Mac called Indy "Jonsey". What an annoying, completely unneccessary character. The film should just be about Indy and Mutt, none of the other good guys characters should be there.
 
I cringed every time Mac called Indy "Jonsey". What an annoying, completely unneccessary character. The film should just be about Indy and Mutt, none of the other good guys characters should be there.

I have to say I agree with that...which is a shame because I normally like Ray Winstone :dunno

Although overall I rather liked KOTCS :)
 
I also agree on Mac, completely unnecessary. They should've cut that character and given his screen time to John Hurt.
 
This is according to boxofficemojo. Here's how they did adjusted for inflation (I rounded)
1. Raiders $635,000,000
2. Temple of Doom $385,000,000
3. Last Crusade $356,000,000
4. Crystal Skull $317,000,000

Here is the WORLDWIDE gross of the 4 movies, both original and adjusted for inflation. This was adjusted using Box Office Mojo's average ticket price for each year. I think their average ticket price is only based on domestic prices though, so you can take this as a rough estimate. The major change from the domestic results is that Temple of Doom appears to be the least popular of the 4 movies worldwide. However, all 4 movies are much closer to each other in worldwide results than in domestic, where Raiders is so much further ahead of the sequels.

Original worldwide gross:
1. Crystal Skull: $786,636,033
2. Last Crusade: $474,171,806
3. Raiders $384,140,454
4. Temple of Doom: $333,107,271

Adjusted worldwide gross:
1. Raiders: $992,132,539
2. Last Crusade: $857,570,168
3. Crystal Skull: $786,636,033
4. Temple of Doom: $711,818,514
 
The idea of having a "complex character" like Mac was a good thought, but in the end just wound up being un-even and, basically, didn't make much sense. This screen time would have better gone to more scenes with Indy and Mutt. I love their chat on the way to the sanitarium while looking for Ox.
 
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