James Cameron's AVATAR discussion thread

[FQRizzo]

I thought the emergence of Avatar fanboys would occur after the movie came out...

 

[DinoLast]

Yes I know the Story seems familiar, I could go on and on about the parallels between Dances with wolves, Return of the Jedi, The Mission, Star Trek Insurrection, etc, etc, but this movie still has something about it that makes it look like we could have another SCI-FI classic from Cameron.
At the end of the day it's said that there are only 7 original plots
[wo]man vs. nature
[wo]man vs. man
[wo]man vs. the environment
[wo]man vs. machines/technology
[wo]man vs. the supernatural
[wo]man vs. self
[wo]man vs. god/religion
There is a book called 20 Master Plots and How To Build Them

IDEAS, PLOTS
After you come up with your own system for generating ideas, the next step is to put them in some recognizable story form (the basic plot idea), build your central conflict (the story premise sheet), then build your character and underlying themes (the thematic premise sheet.

#1 QUEST - the plot involves the Protagonist's search for a person, place or thing, tangible or intangible (but must be quantifiable, so think of this as a noun; i.e., immortality).

#2 ADVENTURE - this plot involves the Protagonist going in search of their fortune, and since fortune is never found at home, the Protagonist goes to search for it somewhere over the rainbow.

#3 PURSUIT - this plot literally involves hide-and-seek, one person chasing another.

#4 RESCUE - this plot involves the Protagonist searching for someone or something, usually consisting of three main characters - the Protagonist, the Victim & the Antagonist.

#5 ESCAPE - plot involves a Protagonist confined against their will who wants to escape (does not include some one trying to escape their personal demons).

#6 REVENGE - retaliation by Protagonist or Antagonist against the other for real or imagined injury.

#7 THE RIDDLE - plot involves the Protagonist's search for clues to find the hidden meaning of something in question that is deliberately enigmatic or ambiguous.

#8 RIVALRY - plot involves Protagonist competing for same object or goal as another person (their rival).

#9 UNDERDOG - plot involves a Protagonist competing for an object or goal that is at a great disadvantage and is faced with overwhelming odds.

#10 TEMPTATION - plot involves a Protagonist that for one reason or another is induced or persuaded to do something that is unwise, wrong or immoral.

#11 METAMORPHOSIS - this plot involves the physical characteristics of the Protagonist actually changing from one form to another (reflecting their inner psychological identity).

#12 TRANSFORMATION - plot involves the process of change in the Protagonist as they journey through a stage of life that moves them from one significant character state to another.

#13 MATURATION - plot involves the Protagonist facing a problem that is part of growing up, and from dealing with it, emerging into a state of adulthood (going from innocence to experience).

#14 LOVE - plot involves the Protagonist overcoming the obstacles to love that keeps them from consummating (engaging in) true love.

#15 FORBIDDEN LOVE - plot involves Protagonist(s) overcoming obstacles created by social mores and taboos to consummate their relationship (and sometimes finding it at too high a price to live with).

#16 SACRIFICE - plot involves the Protagonist taking action(s) that is motivated by a higher purpose (concept) such as love, honor, charity or for the sake of humanity.

#17 DISCOVERY - plot that is the most character-centered of all, involves the Protagonist having to overcome an upheavel(s) in their life, and thereby discovering something important (and buried) within them a better understanding of life (i.e., better appreciation of their life, a clearer purpose in their life, etc.)

#18 WRETCHED EXCESS - plot involves a Protagonist who, either by choice or by accident, pushes the limits of acceptable behavior to the extreme and is forced to deal with the consequences (generally deals with the psychological decline of the character).

#19 ASCENSION - rags-to-riches plot deals with the rise (success) of Protagonist due to a dominating character trait that helps them to succeed.

#20 DECISION - riches-to-rags plot deals with the fall (destruction) of Protagonist due to dominating character trait that eventually destroys their success.

(Note: Sometimes #19 & #20 are combined into rags-to-riches-to-rags (or vice versa) of a Protagonist who does (or doesn't) learn to deal with their dominating character trait.)

For an in-depth look at these plots, read the excellent "20 Master Plots and How To Build Them" by Ronald B. Tobias

 

[lightwave000]

I thought the emergence of Avatar fanboys would occur after the movie came out...

But instead you come to post in an Avatar forum and prove yourself wrong

 

[uscmhicks]

I'm not looking into anything to do with this anymore. I made the mistae of watching half of the dark knight on youtube.

 

[agen_kolar]

I really shouldn't watch anymore stuff on Avatar, but I can't help myself. I kept up with the Star Wars Episode III spoilers, and regretted it because it left me with high hopes. I now enjoy the movie for what it is, but when I left the theatre at 2:30am on May 19, 2005, I was disappointed. Here I am doing it again! I clearly have no self control.

 

[FQRizzo]

But instead you come to post in an Avatar forum and prove yourself wrong

First of all, it is a Movie forum on a collectibles board.

Secondly, I come in here to learn more about the movie, and I see people vehemently defending a movie they haven't seen all the way through, almost to the point of being insulting. Therefore, fanboys.

 

[plasmid303]

I hate generalizing people into one group or another. I think it's okay if people want others to hold off judgment until after they've actually seen the film and it's alright if you want to critique something based on 3 minutes of footage. I mean, fair is fair.

 

[lightwave000]

Not many good AVATAR posters out there. Just some screen stills with AVATAR plastered on it.

So I decided to mock up one of my own

Tried to do a bit of the Star Wars good vs. evil thing. Lemme know what you think.

 

[cr`]

battle scenes shown (or so i heard - i'm not watching anything until dec 18):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RWX1CRl5w0


@DinoLast - cool post. appreciate the info.
@lightwave000 - would make a cool wallpaper. great job!
@FQRizzo - fanboys would be if we have seen the film, and it sucks, and still we defend it like crazy. now we are just being very enthusiastic bystanders, and for very good reason. avatar is the biggest thing to hit the movie screen. if you're a lover of film at all, this is the time to be optimistic. there'll be plenty of time to criticize the film if it fails later.

 

[Figurefreaks]

Nice work there Andrew, I like it …but where are all the posters, cardboard standees, banners etc.
I’m working on a cinema here in Norway and all I was able to get was a couple teaser posters from Avatar, and the movie is less than a month away.

 

[The Chaver]

I had my doubts about this movie after watching the first two trailers. But after seeing that last Doc clip, I'm totally pumped to see this.

Oh, and I think that it was more the clips of the humans and their technology rather than the Na vie that's getting me on tingly inside.

 

[LOTRFan]

avatar is the biggest thing to hit the movie screen. if you're a lover of film at all, this is the time to be optimistic. there'll be plenty of time to criticize the film if it fails later.

Seems kinda contradictory, right?


As for my username being LOTRFan, well you do know that there was LOTR before Peter Jackson, right? Not only that, but while some of the film's themes (I will stay on target with you here) may have been travelled before, I dare suggest that they weren't forced down your throat or so clearly seen in trailers. Avatar to me (and of course it is still early) looks like a very often covered story with what is supposed to be some of the best special effects we have seen; so far I am not too overly impressed. I am planning on seeing the film though, and maybe I'll be wrong. I feel like I already know the plot though, and that is from 3 trailers of a total combined length of about 10 mins; so all that is left to experience is the CGI.

 

[cr`]

Seems kinda contradictory, right?

"IF" it fails. there's always that pesky possibility, even in the making of the biggest of anything. but given the director's track record, it's realistic to expect that possibility is very slim.

As for my username being LOTRFan, well you do know that there was LOTR before Peter Jackson, right? Not only that, but while some of the film's themes (I will stay on target with you here) may have been travelled before, I dare suggest that they weren't forced down your throat or so clearly seen in trailers. Avatar to me (and of course it is still early) looks like a very often covered story with what is supposed to be some of the best special effects we have seen; so far I am not too overly impressed. I am planning on seeing the film though, and maybe I'll be wrong. I feel like I already know the plot though, and that is from 3 trailers of a total combined length of about 10 mins; so all that is left to experience is the CGI.

books, films... you're telling me the main plot for LOTR is different in those two mediums? is it not still about people coming together to defeat the giant flaming eye who wants to rule the world? is it still not the same story derived from world war II? the same story that keeps happening in every ages throughout human history?

like i said, plot matters less than HOW it's told. and just like you cant judge 3 books worth of LOTR from just reading 10 sentences, you cant judge 3 hours worth of film from 10 minutes of out of context footage. if it were a film directed by some hack, i'd be right alongside you with the pitchfork right about this time. but this is not some hack telling the story. for this kind of material, cameron is the best storyteller around.

give him the benefit of the doubt.

 

[lightwave000]

I updated my poster with higher quality and a new title.

Apparently there is a new featurette that showcases the human tech. It has the feel of the future military like the Aliens movie did. This is probably my favorite part. I like the amp and all the human tech probably even more than realistic CGI. I have decided not to watch anymore spoilers and apparently this clip spoils a lot. Watch at your own risk....I'm not.

Another one-

SPOILER ALERT!!!

https://www.rottentomatoes.com/dor/objects/800318/avatar/videos/avatar_hardware.html

 

[LOTRFan]

books, films... you're telling me the main plot for LOTR is different in those two mediums? is it not still about people coming together to defeat the giant flaming eye who wants to rule the world? is it still not the same story derived from world war II? the same story that keeps happening in every ages throughout human history?

give him the benefit of the doubt.

I am very much willing to give Cameron the benefit of the doubt, it seems he is off of his Titanic is everywhere kick.

And sure the books aren't necessarily telling anything in an original fashion, but there is absolutely no comparison to them in relation to their original date of publication and the depth of the world that Tolkien created; languages, cultures, and the shear depth of that world.

I believe Avatar will follow this basic plotline, and yes it was all gathered from the trailers:

1) Humans are sent to a planet to mine the resources it contains, these are not essential resources but luxuries - i.e. greed

2) The humans develop a way to exploit the natives, and can disguise themselves in order to do so

3) One particular character is given a choice to enlist in this operation and in exchange will be given the ability to walk again

4) This character has a change of heart somewhere along the line and begins to fight on the side of the natives

5) He leads a band of other humans away from the evil greedy corporation and they eventually overthow said corporation with the help of the relatively primative native population


What am I missing?

 

[DinoLast]

I believe Avatar will follow this basic plotline, and yes it was all gathered from the trailers:

1) Humans are sent to a planet to mine the resources it contains, these are not essential resources but luxuries - i.e. greed

2) The humans develop a way to exploit the natives, and can disguise themselves in order to do so

3) One particular character is given a choice to enlist in this operation and in exchange will be given the ability to walk again

4) This character has a change of heart somewhere along the line and begins to fight on the side of the natives

5) He leads a band of other humans away from the evil greedy corporation and they eventually overthow said corporation with the help of the relatively primative native population


What am I missing?

As I quoted before
All movies can break down to a basic structure
We all know what to expect from Clash of the Titans, but it might still turn out to be an amazing movie.
It's down to the skill of the storyteller on how good a structure turns out. So far Cameron has done pretty well in that department.

 

[cr`]

What am I missing?

"languages, cultures, and the shear depth of that world."

like i said, it's all in the details. anybody can break down tolkien's work into 5 basic plot points too if they want, but i'm sure you'd be the first to let them know they're just being silly if they do that.

 

[LOTRFan]

"languages, cultures, and the shear depth of that world."

like i said, it's all in the details. anybody can break down tolkien's work into 5 basic plot points too if they want, but i'm sure you'd be the first to let them know they're just being silly if they do that.

I don't have any intention of playing into your bait here, internet flame wars just aren't my bag.

Clearly we are going to have to agree to disagree here, but it is sufficient to say that even if your "5 basic" concept were correct some are certainly more distinguished than others. It is probably unwise to equate a decade old film (by filming date) or literature that is over 50 years old with a film that hasn't been released yet and as far as we know is just the latest flash in the pan.

 

[Red]

I see Matt's point and somewhat agree from the clips but am taking more of the positive road hoping that it's an excellent film.It's quite possible that there is something we are not seeing as they holding it back but if not we wont know until the release whether it lives up to expectations.

The story may turn out to be fairly simple but sometimes you find those turn out to be the best films with not getting caught up in its own importance.

There are numerous stories with these themes running through them,why because its in our own history.This has happened over and over again so when people compare it to other films saying its already been done well thats true and it was probably in your own backyard.

When you get right down to it we all want the same thing,that being another awesome movie experience and i'm sure we can all agree on that right.

Hey but dont listen to me cause i think DWW is an excellent film.

 

[cr`]

I don't have any intention of playing into your bait here, internet flame wars just aren't my bag.

didnt even know i was baiting. sorry if i sounded too harsh at times, was just a tad too passionate, didnt meant to incite anything. just saying your premature doubts are all easily reasoned away if you'd just give it a moment's thought.

and sure, cameron is no tolkien. but tolkien is no cameron either. i seriously think anyone doubting this film is doing that because they just dont know cameron that well. his works, i mean. if you want to pre-judge his new film, put that in the context of all his previous films. learn what makes him tick. learn why he's the best at what he does, and why he's highly respected by the best in the business. that way, you'll feel more confident about the prospect of this film kicking ass, no matter what the trailer tells you.

Hey but dont listen to me cause i think DWW is an excellent film.

it's an excelent film, and it's 2 decades old now. if anyone can give that plot a fresh new spin with a sci-fi edge, i hardly think anyone is more qualified than cameron.