Jazzinc The Batman - Batmobile 1/6 Deluxe

[JazzInc]

Thank you for engaging in conversation Joost, it cannot be stated highly enough how refreshing it is to have a conversation with a manufacturer.

Just to be clear, that wasn't my overlay animation, however the animation was certainly correct in suggesting an obvious issue exists in the side-chassis area on the JazzInc model.

If indeed a manufacturing reason was the reason why this side-chassis design was changed, I would have expected this to be made clear to the community prior to approval, as this subject has been bought up time and time again by multiple collectors as the issue is noticed. If I may be so bold as to suggest design changes of this magnitude to be communicated to the JazzInc community during future builds?

I very much look forward to the release of this model and stand ready with my dremel, to adjust and modify the obvious issues upon delivery.

It is my pleasure. As for the 'changes', they were there from the beginning. In the Facebook group we have shown every step, from the engineering and 3d modelling for production, including pictures and videos of the prototype before we went into production.

No-one mentioned anything then. And we have addressed quite a few issues about choices we made for production and mold purposes. Now I have increased my cost significantly (higher than calculated) by increasing the part count to a record number of more than 350 parts per vehicle that need to be produced, sanded, painted, weathered, hand-assembled for every order to make it as accurate as possible. That is more than a high end mechanical Swiss watch. However, the prototype phase was 10 months ago (as can be seen in the video on YouTube).

After all those changes and extra parts based on feedback, we started designing and machining all the tooling, which takes 5-6 months, and then production, sanding, paint, assembly, weathering, electronics, etc, which takes another 3-5 months. We cannot change anything anymore during that time.

We have listened to a lot of feedback and eaten into our own margin to make this behemoth as perfect as possible for a limited run of 500 units per product world wide. (our closest competors think in edition sizes of tens of thousands of units and think 3000 pieces is extremely limited edition)

A customer put it eloquently recently: "Whether you collect props, figures, statues or more, there are always plenty of competitors, but the products that you make is such a difficult niche, there are no competitors... anywhere in the world."

That was very astutely observed. And there is a reason for this. It is almost impossible to do this, because the market is too small for the big boys. And the prices for real custom work is many thousands of dollars. So we have to skate that very thin line of making something as accurate as possible, while still being produceable and relatively affordable. We have to do everything ourselves, from design and engineering, production, to sales, distribution and service. We cannot afford the margins wholesale and retail require. So it's a difficult game we play and we do the best we can.

Hope this helps. Thanks everyone, for supporting us.

 

[The Buffinator]

Again, I've shown you the video and still images we based our decision on (with the WB team) and that was over 9 months ago when we moved into production. Right now, we are close to delivery and nothing can be done. So, even though it was brought up, it was already too late. This is how it is and we followed the WB guideline. As for the slant of that lower panel, that has to do with release angles in the mold as well as structural integrity. Again, it is what it is and cannot be changed.
In your overlay animation, it was suggested that that panel should not be there. It should be, and it's just the angle we're talking about

Ah! Thanks for clearing that up.

If indeed a manufacturing reason was the reason why this side-chassis design was changed, I would have expected this to be made clear to the community prior to approval, as this subject has been bought up time and time again by multiple collectors as the issue is noticed. If I may be so bold as to suggest design changes of this magnitude to be communicated to the JazzInc community during future builds?

I very much look forward to the release of this model and stand ready with my dremel, to adjust and modify the obvious issues upon delivery.

To be fair, I don't recall anyone asking about the angle of that lower panel, just its existence and its relationship to the sidestep & side exhaust (and I've read everything posted in this thread & I'm a member of the Jazzinc Facebook group). So while you see this change as significant in magnitude there was never a time in the design/prototype phase where such a concern was shared with Jazzinc. Also, if Joost took the time to explain to the community every decision made in the manufacturing development process (& subjected himself to the endless suggestions/opinions that would provoke) he'd still be in the prototype phase and we wouldn't get this Batmobile until after the sequel is in theaters and Pattinson is driving the 2.0 version.

 

[Adama]

It is my pleasure. As for the 'changes', they were there from the beginning. In the Facebook group we have shown every step, from the engineering and 3d modelling for production, including pictures and videos of the prototype before we went into production.

No-one mentioned anything then. And we have addressed quite a few issues about choices we made for production and mold purposes. Now I have increased my cost significantly (higher than calculated) by increasing the part count to a record number of more than 350 parts per vehicle that need to be produced, sanded, painted, weathered, hand-assembled for every order to make it as accurate as possible. That is more than a high end mechanical Swiss watch. However, the prototype phase was 10 months ago (as can be seen in the video on YouTube).

After all those changes and extra parts based on feedback, we started designing and machining all the tooling, which takes 5-6 months, and then production, sanding, paint, assembly, weathering, electronics, etc, which takes another 3-5 months. We cannot change anything anymore during that time.

We have listened to a lot of feedback and eaten into our own margin to make this behemoth as perfect as possible for a limited run of 500 units per product world wide. (our closest competors think in edition sizes of tens of thousands of units and think 3000 pieces is extremely limited edition)

A customer put it eloquently recently: "Whether you collect props, figures, statues or more, there are always plenty of competitors, but the products that we make is such a difficult niche, there are no competitors... anywhere in the world."

That was very astutely observed. And there is a reason for this. It is almost impossible to do this, because the market is too small for the big boys. And the prices for real custom work is many thousands of dollars. So we have to skate that very thin line of making something as accurate as possible, while still being produceable. We have to do everything ourselves, from design and engineering, production, to sales, distribution and service. We cannot afford the margins wholesale and retail require. So it's a difficult game we play and we do the best we can.

Hope this helps. Thanks everyone, for supporting us.

I do know the side-chassis issue was mentioned more than once by the fb community, back in the early days of prototyping. However I don't believe it was ever responded to by JazzInc - so never knowing whether it would be fixed or not. Also, the community can only point out so much, especially with the fb compressed images hiding many details.

As @Bleah suggests, the community cannot be held accountable by JazzInc to call-out every issue. Some people simply prefer to trust in the process that JazzInc will supply the highest quality collectible possible - which is awesome - however as we have seen, not always possible.

It is superb to have the ability to suggest feedback to JazzInc but to be honest, those who do give feedback don't have all the available data to truly give granular feedback on, such as the hi-res CAD image you supplied earlier. Whether it is down to unseen accuracy issues or manufacturing limits which compromise accuracy with significant design changes, visibility to the community is key. I highly suspect the side-chassis issue was not noticed at all by JazzInc which is a shame. However, perhaps we can all learn from this going forward.

 

[BigWayne]

It should come as no surprise that not everyone is going to see every single detail that may or may not need improvement, so it's probably not reasonable to expect perfection. That said, I think the lesson here is that it is incumbent on everyone with skin in the game to participate to the best of their abilities in the design review period and either speak then or forever hold their peace. Again, the key phrase being "to the best of their abilities". That's all you can do. IMO, you have to trust Joost with the rest of it, just like you don't cook your own meals at a restaurant - you provide direction, where appropriate, and the chef takes it from there.

 

[Bleah]

It should come as no surprise that not everyone is going to see every single detail that may or may not need improvement, so it's probably not reasonable to expect perfection. That said, I think the lesson here is that it is incumbent on everyone with skin in the game to participate to the best of their abilities in the design review period and either speak then or forever hold their peace. Again, the key phrase being "to the best of their abilities". That's all you can do. IMO, you have to trust Joost with the rest of it, just like you don't cook your own meals at a restaurant - you provide direction, where appropriate, and the chef takes it from there.

One of the problems is holding the buyers accountable for the inaccuracies saying "you saw the files, materials, etc., how come you didn't say anything?" Buyer feedback is there to help and enhance the end product. The collectors aren't hired to make sure everything is in place.

Companies still make last minute changes to improve or fix a product which obviously cuts into their margin. I.E. Inart deciding to use PERS instead of the magnetic eyeballs for Gandalf the Grey. Apologize for the last minute change but it is to ensure a better product and include some other accessories as a goodwill gesture. I understand Jazzinc's margins are most likely less than these companies and I don't even expect any freebies. But just take the L - We're sorry we missed that detail. That was on us but we can't fix it unfortunately. Instead, it's "a matter of opinion", "WB approved it", "We shared the files/process/etc., why was it not mentioned?" If what @Adama says is true that this has been brought up multiple times before in the FB group, then the last statement can't even be brought up.


I wonder if there's enough material on the lower panel to sand it down to an angle where it is not as visible. I'm not handy with customizing stuff so I'll probably see what @Adama does if the fix has to come from the buyer's end.

 

[TheBatman]

 

[Bleah]

No, no, no. You get back in there.

 

[BigWayne]

One of the problems is holding the buyers accountable for the inaccuracies saying "you saw the files, materials, etc., how come you didn't say anything?" Buyer feedback is there to help and enhance the end product. The collectors aren't hired to make sure everything is in place.

Companies still make last minute changes to improve or fix a product which obviously cuts into their margin. I.E. Inart deciding to use PERS instead of the magnetic eyeballs for Gandalf the Grey. Apologize for the last minute change but it is to ensure a better product and include some other accessories as a goodwill gesture. I understand Jazzinc's margins are most likely less than these companies and I don't even expect any freebies. But just take the L - We're sorry we missed that detail. That was on us but we can't fix it unfortunately. Instead, it's "a matter of opinion", "WB approved it", "We shared the files/process/etc., why was it not mentioned?" If what @Adama says is true that this has been brought up multiple times before in the FB group, then the last statement can't even be brought up.


I wonder if there's enough material on the lower panel to sand it down to an angle where it is not as visible. I'm not handy with customizing stuff so I'll probably see what @Adama does if the fix has to come from the buyer's end.

@Bleah - This isn't directed solely at you, but I wanted to quote the post for context. This is more about the theme of several recent posts. And all of this is just my opinion.

At the risk of sounding harsh, the simple fact is that Joost is under no obligation to do anything that anyone else suggests, hence the term "suggestion". He's the captain of the ship, so to speak, so suggestions get evaluated and implemented based solely on his own judgement. When or if he explains a decision, or shares his logic, he's under no obligation to do so. It is purely out of his consideration for his customers and his love of what he does.

I also don't believe he's "holding the buyers accountable for inaccuracies". I think it's more likely he's probably frustrated that many of the comments made recently are either too late, not helpful, or backhanded "I could have done better" type of condescending responses. Particularly when, as he's stated, he's already eaten well into his own margins to better the product. Further, when one implies that additional "goodwill" may somehow be warranted on his part, that can be perceived as less than appreciative or grateful of contributions that were already made. He literally already gave at the office and that should not go unrecognized.

To his credit, I don't know how he just doesn't respond, "you know what? How about I sit this one out and you do it and I'll critique it?" It's probably a good thing I'm not running that company, because that's exactly what I'd say and I'm sure it would offend a bunch of very thin skinned people. One can't help but be impressed with the level of grace and composure contained in his responses. I don't think anyone can stand being micromanaged and, IMO, for someone to actually suggest that it is key to the community for him to disclose "unseen accuracy issues or manufacturing limits which compromise accuracy with significant design changes" is more than unreasonable.

If you think about it, he's got over 9500+ followers on youtube, and I don't even know how many on facebook. That's a lot of bosses. And less than 500 of them are actual buyers. That equates to just over 94% of the youtube following with absolutely no stake in the product. None at all. And that percentage goes even higher when you add in the facebook crowd. I have no doubt that many of them are very vocal with their own opinions on how something should be done, which are probably at odds with many others. I don't see how he could possibly share much more of the minutiae and still get anything accomplished.

If some of his responses are perceived as "defensive", I have no problem giving him a pass on it. He's doing a job that no one else can, he's doing it remarkably well, and he deserves some slack for not being everything to everyone. Again, that's all an opinion.

 

[TheBatman]

To his credit, I don't know how he just doesn't respond, "you know what? How about I sit this one out and you do it and I'll critique it?" It's probably a good thing I'm not running that company, because that's exactly what I'd say and I'm sure it would offend a bunch of very thin skinned people.

Reading through this thread earlier, I was actually really tempted to respond to the criticizers and call them out.

This is well said. I dont think I can run the business with as much composure as Joost.

And frankly, criticizms that are way too late are just noise at this point and it really has no place anymore.
Better yet, go contact Hot Toys and tell them how to do it.

 

[Bleah]

The distinction between feedback of pointing out inaccuracies and criticizing if the product is good or not based on that are totally two different things. One is based on fact and the other is opinion. The panel is not accurate v.s. that product is bad because the panel is not accurate. Either way, my original post was to point out the inaccurate area based on evidence and my criticism is toward the response and not of the product.

@BigWayne I understand your point. Joost has been proactive in engaging with the community as I and others have credited before. In fact, he has done a lot of concessions to accommodate his customers to which the community in this forum acknowledges. Sure, he doesn't need to respond to every query. It's definitely easier to ignore the "noise" and just release the product without saying anything. It is exhausting to read or take in every feedback from the community but I don't believe either that anybody is downplaying the extra effort and the cost that has been put to it to deliver the best possible product he can make. Nobody is demanding to stop the production to correct things nor provide extras. I merely used Inart's recent actions as an example of how one company responds to issues. I do believe it says a lot more about a person/company to acknowledge a mistake and own up to it rather than deflecting it. Joost has addressed the delays and came out saying they're making sure the Batmobile is the best that it can be but with the feedback for the inaccuarices - :/ If I am misinterpreting the response, then I apologize. I get your point with the analogy with the chef and captain of the ship. But nobody is trying to direct or meddle with how the production should proceed. People are trusting the captain to get them to the destination, the chef serving the food ordered, Joost with the end product which is an accurate 1/6 scale The Batman Batmobile.


"You know what? How about I sit this one out and you do it and I'll critique it" - IMO that's an invalid response for something put out there for public consumption especially at a price. If it was a competing company critiquing, then I can see this as applicable. Even when something is free, people still criticize such as how mods move movie topics away from the toy section. "You know what? How about you open a forum and manage it. Let's see how you do it." I don't throw that "why don't you do it" line to somebody unless it really is warranted because I know it's just hypocritical of me to do so. We only have to look at ourselves as I'm 100% sure everybody has put out a criticism. Criticism isn't bad as long as there is merit to it. If they're all just noise that is too late, then a big majority of the forum is just that - invalid noise since a lot of the criticism are of finished products or products in the process of production. However though, if a company can pivot to address the criticism and in which manner they do, I don't think that counts against them but adds confidence from the consumers.

I believe the members here supporting Jazzinc acknowledge his work, commend his efforts, and are far more appreciative/understanding than what others may think otherwise. I can't say the same elsewhere though.

That's all I'm saying on the matter. Feel free to criticize my response. I'm open to it.

Edit: damn... that was long. Even I wouldn't want to read this.

 

[xtinct1990]

The last couple pages of this thread are exactly why most companies don’t talk to us at all.

 

[LJK1219]

Got my shipping charge. $350 charge
$1850 total. I don’t know. Suddenly I’m feeling a little irrational paying so much for this. Gonna pay it anyways but jeez thank god I only have the 1995, JL, 1989 left to complete my vehicle collecting

 

[choombaz]

Got my shipping charge. $350 charge
$1850 total. I don’t know. Suddenly I’m feeling a little irrational paying so much for this. Gonna pay it anyways but jeez thank god I only have the 1995, JL, 1989 left to complete my vehicle collecting

Yeah I love Jazzinc, but I’m done buying from them. The shipping and customs charges are becoming exorbitant. Absolutely nothing to do with them obviously.

 

[TheBatman]

Just paid my shipping as well. I hope it gets here ASAP as I will be out of the country this coming December.

 

[BigWayne]

Got my shipping charge. $350 charge
$1850 total. I don’t know. Suddenly I’m feeling a little irrational paying so much for this. Gonna pay it anyways but jeez thank god I only have the 1995, JL, 1989 left to complete my vehicle collecting

Just paid my shipping as well. I hope it gets here ASAP as I will be out of the country this coming December.

Which versions did you guys order? I got the clean version in the first hour or so of the sale and paid in full, but still no shipping invoice

Hoping to see it soon.

 

[TheBatman]

Which versions did you guys order? I got the clean version in the first hour or so of the sale and paid in full, but still no shipping invoice

Hoping to see it soon.

I went with clean and paid everything off back in August

 

[BigWayne]

Well, I guess I get it when I get it - I'm just super excited for this

Please post some pictures when it's in hand. It should be soon

 

[LJK1219]

I got the clean. Order placed in April 2022. I don’t remember when it opened for preorder though

 

[BigWayne]

Just paid my shipping invoice!

 

[xtinct1990]

Got my shipping invoice for the weathered version.