JND / Kojun Works: The Dark Knight Rises - 1/6 Selina Kyle / Catwoman

[Nick D]

Nolan waited three months after the success of Batman Begins, then wanted to begin discussion about the sequel after seeing how it played out, on his own.

Originally he didn’t put the Joker card in the finale to tell people Joker was definitely coming, just thought that was a good way to close as he had no idea how it’d perform.

After the success, WB asked him if he had anything left to tell and he said yes.

Heath and Nolan saw eye to eye completely regarding direction before a script was ever produced.

He was probably quite fatigued with the material and production at large by the time he was knee deep in production on Rises but he wanted to make it.

The entire trilogy was his intention but more so as each installment played out, not from day one.

 

[Scout Trooper]

I think he was always in for a trilogy to tell Bruce’s arc, except he had it planned out with Heath coming back for the third. Once that was out of the picture, it was a case of making something workable that still told the story he wanted to tell but you can tell there is an element of just wanting to be over with it in the final execution

I doubt he was thinking about a Trilogy early on. He took on the first film without any intention or commitment to return for another (although he hadn't ruled out the possibility). He's on record saying it. He then took a similar approach with The Dark Knight. I'm not sure when the conversations for a third film started. But it may not have been until after TDK released, and Ledger's tragic passing.

 

[intothevoid]

I doubt he was thinking about a Trilogy early on. He took on the first film without any intention or commitment to return for another (although he hadn't ruled out the possibility). He's on record saying it. He then took a similar approach with The Dark Knight. I'm not sure when the conversations for a third film started. But it may not have been until after TDK released, and Ledger's tragic passing.

I don’t think he’s necessarily being completely honest though in those interviews - when he planted the Joker seed at the end of Begins he had to have been thinking of how the story would continue.

With TDK there was a sense of him quickly wrapping the two face arc so as not to leave any unfinished ideas on the table for the third, but from what I’ve heard Joker was absolutely planned to continue his arc in the third as one of the escaped prisoners after the fall of Gotham - I can’t remember where I heard this but apparently he was supposed to be in Scarecrow’s place running the Kangaroo court amongst other things

 

[Scout Trooper]

I don’t think he’s necessarily being completely honest though in those interviews - when he planted the Joker seed at the end of Begins he had to have been thinking of how the story would continue.

With TDK there was a sense of him quickly wrapping the two face arc so as not to leave any unfinished ideas on the table for the third, but from what I’ve heard Joker was absolutely planned to continue his arc in the third as one of the escaped prisoners after the fall of Gotham - I can’t remember where I heard this but apparently he was supposed to be in Scarecrow’s place running the Kangaroo court amongst other things

Maybe he knew Joker would be the character he'd take on if he were to make another. But I don't see the card as any kind of promise. Just a cool easter egg to give the world some open ended expansion.

I don't know how Joker could have played into Rises, but I can't see Ledger being brought back only to be handed a secondary role like Scarecrow.

He'd also trump the main villain, which would undermine the narrative.

 

[Nick D]

Nolan wrapping up quickly regarding Two Face was because of his commitment to realism and the character no longer had a will to live, narratively,
he took care of everyone responsible for her death,
then wanted to join her in it.

Two Face doesn’t make it two days in Nolan’s world which is the reason for the degree of burn damage applied instead of going for a more subtle survivable approach.

Rises wasn’t a real thought for a while after TDK.
They needed a break after the emotional highs and lows experienced from the beginning of TDK’s production to the film’s release. He still felt like he had a closing final chapter to tell, but he wasn’t in a rush.

 

[HyperDrive]

Oh, I was referring to JazzInc’s Pfeiffer Catwoman.

I’m sitting out the JND figures / hyperrealistic customs. I have a fairly established collection of live action Batman figures across Hot Toys, Inart, and third party, and I don’t want to introduce a new, vastly more detailed line into the mix, and then feel like all my other figures suck and need to replace them.

D’oh! I misread. I tend to forget about that JazzInc ‘92 Catwoman.

And yeah, I feel that. I made that realization long ago lol.. My INART figs have made my Hot Toys look like little toys. Almost like they’re 1/12 but scaled up, if that makes sense.

Good thing I plan to display them apart from each other so the disparity isn’t too apparent on the shelf!

 

[HyperDrive]

I also find it funny how you choose to ignore me @Nick D, but whenever I mess up, and someone either corrects me or “puts me in my place” lol, you’re the first to give that a like, just like my other “haters”. Nick, just know that while I may not agree with you 100% of the time, it’s not like I’ve got anything against you lmao, or anyone for that matter. I get most of y’all despise me, but idk, perhaps I don’t take this hobby so seriously as some of y’all.

 

[Chopper Face]

People be complaining about the price of a figure, and then buy 15 £300 figures in a year...

 

[sabin23]

JND is going for a Rolex type business model - charge a premium to a dedicated customer base and create artificial demand by restraining supply.

Lower sales volume but higher margins - the opposite of Hot Toys. There are different ways to skin a cat.

As long JND is making a profit and their balance sheet is healthy, I don’t see them changing their niche in the collectible industry.

As a collector with no specific brand loyalty, it’s nice having so many options compared to what we had just a decade ago when it was basically Hot Toys, Sideshow, some lesser licensed companies (Enterbay, Blitzway, Asmus, etc) and some very poor 3rd party figures.

 

[Nick D]

JND is going for a Rolex type business model - charge a premium to a dedicated customer base and create artificial demand by restraining supply.

Lower sales volume but higher margins - the opposite of Hot Toys. There are different ways to skin a cat.

I think this is a common misconception about them and their business model which makes people unjustly view them negatively.

To a degree, yes putting a cap on edition size helps drive demand, for any product that has some form of attention on it.

But it isn’t the sole reason they’ve done this since their establishment.

Everything is produced in-house with materials that aren’t common place in the business or to outsource, how often do they implement plastic?

The company isn’t based in China like their competitors, paying factory workers lousy salaries and overworking them, therefore a far more expensive process.

Their extremely limited numbers are mostly due to that being all they’re comfortable with producing on a given release to maintain their standard of quality and not to overwork their artists.

If they thought they could effectively produce and move 10K units of this Catwoman at the prototype’s level, in a timely manner, for their asking price, they would. Imagine you yourself in their shoes trying to produce that many with a fully realized skull underneath, you’d never finish.

We have no clue how big of an operation Hot Toys is to where they’re seemingly able to just pump out release after release, constant varying degrees of edition sizes, almost effortlessly it would seem.

One thing is for sure, if Hot Toys began using the same tech as JND, the prices and edition size would reflect that.

That is exactly what happened when they came up with the Artisan line to compete with InArt.

 

[Lokki]

Maybe we need to be careful with the use of the term "technology" in regards to these JND figures.

If we're being brutally honest, they "fixed" a problem that never existed. No one really needs an endo skeleton, and no one was really asking for a seamless neck - while these things are "nice" - they also have massive drawbacks - and I'm talking about kitbashing, and upgrades.

In terms of JND's business model - unless someone is directly involved with the JND operations, I would assume any information from a third party, is speculation at worst, and at best, strategic information passed over from an "inside" source. From what I can see, as an outsider is the following:

1) Reduction of ES for 1/3 scale pieces going forward - one might ask why? could it be linked to a lower demand?

2) A number of "Sold Out" pieces have returned to stock, for a second "release" - and in some specific cases, are still on sale now - meaning the restock was a significant size!

3) The reception of their Kojun line has been lukewarm - at best - with most collectors favouring Hot Toys of InArt

4) JND continues to copy / follow the same tired I.P's as the other companies - but charging significantly more for the same characters

 

[shadows]

Sounds like speculation from Nick D on JND's operations indeed. I don't know much about JND, I just browsed their offerings briefly in the past and I have no brand loyalty - I buy from whoever brings out banger releases at a price I like.

I don't like any of JND's pricing period, their Birds of Prey Harley Quinn was outrageous money and the likeness wasn't even good, seriously. Their TDK Armory pricing is also outrageous, can't remember how much but way more than HT's 2.0, and the HT's Bruce Wayne looks better.

(Edit: Although Harley is 1/3, my opinion remains unchanged)

 

[Lokki]

Sounds like speculation from Nick D on JND's operations indeed. I don't know much about JND, I just browsed their offerings briefly in the past and I have no brand loyalty - I buy from whoever brings out banger releases at a price I like.

I don't like any of JND's pricing period, their Birds of Prey Harley Quinn was outrageous money and the likeness wasn't even good, seriously. Their TDK Armory pricing is also outrageous, can't remember how much but way more than HT's 2.0, and the HT's Bruce Wayne looks better.

(Edit: Although Harley is 1/3, my opinion remains unchanged)

I wasn't contradicting Nick D's statements about JND - the point of my post was, that regardless of what we think / know is going on behind the scenes, we can see the affects of their model directly, and we can decide if it is positive or not.

Is lower ES good or bad? Are pieces coming back into stock after a "Sold Out" good or bad? Is the general feeling towards Kojun Works good or bad for collectors? Is it good or bad that JND is offering the same as other companies? - there are positives and negatives depending on your individual perspective - for me, I see a lot of positives there - believe it or not.

While I whine like a stuck pig about JND pricing, I also realise that I need to "Pay to Play baby" - and I can step off the merry-go-round any time I like. I own the 1/3 Harley, I think it's great - there's isn't a better version of her from ANY other company at ANY other scale - Infinity, Prime1, Hot Toys - are you going to try to convince me any one of those did a better job? Really?....By the way, it wasn't Birds of Prey - it was Suicide Squad - but hey ho, details.

If you are really dead set against JND - then I can't help but wonder why you keep discussing their products. None of the things you don't like are going to get any better. It's not like there aren't other companies making "similar" products (realism, and I.P.) that might be better for you - so why waste time here, repeating your dislike for JND?

The last thing I will note - you wrote "I buy from whoever brings out banger releases at a price I like" - in my mind this is a massive contradiction. In my view, a "Banger" would be top quality product - materials, likeness, design concept, craftsmanship....and in my experience, these things come with a high price tag. So either your idea of a "Banger" is much lower than mine, or you end up walking away from a lot of pieces due the price tag....

 

[Nick D]

Maybe we need to be careful with the use of the term "technology" in regards to these JND figures.

No one really needs an endo skeleton, and no one was really asking for a seamless neck

Speak for yourself, a seamless articulated neck is a game changer for realism, not only does it make poses more realistic, it gives a shirt something to lay on, to not constantly divert into the neck peg indention. Customs implemented the extension of the neck first, now you’re seeing all three companies want to bite it because it’s the way forward.

- while these things are "nice" - they also have massive drawbacks - and I'm talking about kitbashing, and upgrades.

If you want something to work, you’ll figure out a way to make it work.

In terms of JND's business model - unless someone is directly involved with the JND operations, I would assume any information from a third party, is speculation at worst, and at best, strategic information passed over from an "inside" source.

So you’re assuming they can handle a much larger output in a timely manner than what they do?

How so, if Hot Toys has to limit how many units per release they’re able to effectively root hair on in a timely manner with a much larger workforce at hand, and that’s just for gluing hair onto plastic, then wouldn’t that be even more applicable for JND and their fraction of workers by comparison? They have a lot more to worry about than just gluing hair in a production, which they don’t do.

1) Reduction of ES for 1/3 scale pieces going forward - one might ask why? could it be linked to a lower demand?

It’s no secret 1:3 doesn’t sell well, they’re massive and the majority who were into collecting them have run out of space overseas. This is why JND is now offering 1:6.

2) A number of "Sold Out" pieces have returned to stock, for a second "release" - and in some specific cases, are still on sale now - meaning the restock was a significant size!

Yes that’s what happens if stock can’t be moved, they had a store return their Reeve Superman stock because they couldn’t move it. So JND put those for sale on their own website.

3) The reception of their Kojun line has been lukewarm - at best - with most collectors favouring Hot Toys of InArt

Most collectors don’t “favor” Hot Toys or InArt, they’re simply more affordable therefore much more of a reality for the majority to obtain. JND’s figures aren’t accessible to everyone. Why else do people complain about the price?

4) JND continues to copy / follow the same tired I.P's as the other companies - but charging significantly more for the same characters

They’ve got no choice in the matter, same for InArt, they’re only granted specific licenses, of which they have to be selective in which ones will actually sell. Perhaps you’d see a surplus of I.P’s being pursued, obtained and produced were they popular enough to justify.

Blame collectors as a whole, it’s not any of the companies faults that a Jack Torrance wouldn’t do the numbers any given Batman would, therefore it’s not a viable contender to be made. That’s w/o regard to Nicholson’s expensive likeness rights either.

 

[Lokki]

@Nick D

As I said, whether those points are positive or negative depends on the individual.

With regards to JND's output potential - I'm not arguing with you on that, simply because I have no idea what their capacity is. More to the point, you might be confusing me with someone else - I'm not even in the headspace where I want JND to put out more product - IF they were artificially capping production - I hope they continue to do so! I'm not interested in buying something that appears in millions of other collections - that might be ok for some, but that's not how I roll. Part of my collecting philosophy, is exclusivity....if JND are charging high prices, then (IMHO) the ES should be low.

 

[shadows]

I wasn't contradicting Nick D's statements about JND - the point of my post was, that regardless of what we think / know is going on behind the scenes, we can see the affects of their model directly, and we can decide if it is positive or not.

Is lower ES good or bad? Are pieces coming back into stock after a "Sold Out" good or bad? Is the general feeling towards Kojun Works good or bad for collectors? Is it good or bad that JND is offering the same as other companies? - there are positives and negatives depending on your individual perspective - for me, I see a lot of positives there - believe it or not.

While I whine like a stuck pig about JND pricing, I also realise that I need to "Pay to Play baby" - and I can step off the merry-go-round any time I like. I own the 1/3 Harley, I think it's great - there's isn't a better version of her from ANY other company at ANY other scale - Infinity, Prime1, Hot Toys - are you going to try to convince me any one of those did a better job? Really?....By the way, it wasn't Birds of Prey - it was Suicide Squad - but hey ho, details.

If you are really dead set against JND - then I can't help but wonder why you keep discussing their products. None of the things you don't like are going to get any better. It's not like there aren't other companies making "similar" products (realism, and I.P.) that might be better for you - so why waste time here, repeating your dislike for JND?

The last thing I will note - you wrote "I buy from whoever brings out banger releases at a price I like" - in my mind this is a massive contradiction. In my view, a "Banger" would be top quality product - materials, likeness, design concept, craftsmanship....and in my experience, these things come with a high price tag. So either your idea of a "Banger" is much lower than mine, or you end up walking away from a lot of pieces due the price tag....

- I don't keep discussing their products. I just commented an opinion on this thread as I do with other threads, and I barely talk about JND. It's natural for someone used to 1/6 pricing and comment on JND's astronomical difference.

- A banger to me is a top quality product too. Are these bangers to you? T-800 BD 2.0/T-1000 2.0, Batman 2022, Darth Vader ROTJ. They are to me and aren't inexpensive. "So either your idea of a "Banger" is much lower than mine, or you end up walking away from a lot of pieces due the price tag" - I don't know why you have to put it like that, a banger can be one and cost <$500. There's a reason I used the word banger because I'm describing a fkn good product, without being too pedantic.

 

[Lokki]

- I don't keep discussing their products. I just commented an opinion on this thread as I do with other threads, and I barely talk about JND. It's natural for someone used to 1/6 pricing and comment on JND's astronomical difference.

- A banger to me is a top quality product too. Are these bangers to you? T-800 BD 2.0/T-1000 2.0, Batman 2022, Darth Vader ROTJ. They are to me and aren't inexpensive. "So either your idea of a "Banger" is much lower than mine, or you end up walking away from a lot of pieces due the price tag" - I don't know why you have to put it like that, a banger can be one and cost <$500. There's a reason I used the word banger because I'm describing a fkn good product, without being too pedantic.

I'm not trying to be aggresive about it. I guess, in the end, everyone just needs to decide what they want in their collection - and at what cost.

In the end, simple fact is - JND have set their pricing structure beyond what is typical for the average 1/6 scale figure - there's not much more to say on the topic. Some people are ready to take that next step - and it's not for either of us to judge them, or their decision. It's impossible to say if this is "worth it" - because even if JND makes an identical product to Hot Toys or InArt, but someone wants whatever is coming out of JND Studios - then it's worth it to them - full stop.

 

[Nick D]

@Nick D

As I said, whether those points are positive or negative depends on the individual.

With regards to JND's output potential - I'm not arguing with you on that, simply because I have no idea what their capacity is. More to the point, you might be confusing me with someone else - I'm not even in the headspace where I want JND to put out more product - IF they were artificially capping production - I hope they continue to do so! I'm not interested in buying something that appears in millions of other collections - that might be ok for some, but that's not how I roll. Part of my collecting philosophy, is exclusivity....if JND are charging high prices, then (IMHO) the ES should be low.

My apologies Lok, it appears we are in the same headspace regarding our collections then.

I also don’t want everyone to have what I have, whether that’s clothing, collectibles, sense of style, taste, or even opinions.

InArt produced far too many of their Ledger coupled with the fact that it got outdated and obsolete within a year of its release. Can’t even give it away now.

JND is far from perfect in all that they do, but they are certainly on the right track and I will not hate them for doing what needs to be done to advance the hobby on the licensed side of things, as it has lacked for the last twelve years or so while customs carried all of the advancements we’ve seen till now.

 

[intothevoid]

JND is far from perfect in all that they do, but they are certainly on the right track and I will not hate them for doing what needs to be done to advance the hobby on the licensed side of things, as it has lacked for the last twelve years or so while customs carried all of the advancements we’ve seen till now.

Too true

For example HT has been forced to up their joker game due to the customs far more than due to competition from inArt

Back when the DX11 was released they literally copied the Adam laughing sculpt, hired Kato after his custom run, and copied the interrogation room set too that custom builders were offering

With the latest iteration they’ve literally bought a custom head for mass production

Now with JND coming into the picture with the silicone and seamless tech, it’s the first time competition from another licensed maker will influence how the hobby and the standard of realism achieved shapes up going forward

 

[Nick D]

Yep.

I like what I’m seeing out of InArt’s Paul despite not being interested or having even seen either film.

It’s their best work yet, but it’s not advancing the hobby leaps and bounds, it’s still a regular old body, mass produced fabrics and mass produced rooted hair.

Though their hair has seen an improvement on this specific release, but it was likely low batch and we’ve yet to really see people receive it yet to know for sure that they’ll all look that way, if they do, props given, continue.

The rooted sculpt itself looks fantastic from photos I’ve seen, their best likeness.

I don’t see what people see regarding their Phoenix Joker, to me I don’t see Phoenix at all in any besides the closed eyes portrait and you can understand why that would be, much easier to get a likeness correct when you don’t have eyes staring back at you.

Tailoring wise - that red suit is an absolute joke for the costs, much like Phillips’ sequel itself. They gave him a toddler’s waistcoat and skinny jeans.

I promise if JND were to touch that character, the suit wouldn’t look that bad, no way.