Jonathan Coulton says that Glee Stole his song

[CelticPredator]

Is The Fly (50's) the same movie as The Fly (80's) ?

There you go.

 

[Blackthornone]

Is The Fly (50's) the same movie as The Fly (80's) ?

There you go.

I don't know what you mean by that, unless you are agreeing with me. If The Fly from the 50's was the original story, then that was the creating of the basic concept, and so that was the most creative accomplishment.

The special effects were better in the 80's version and Jeff Goldblum's performance was exceptional, though I didn't see the original. Every new element in the 80's version would be a creative achievement.

However, even if the 80's version was a better film, it still wouldn't be as great a creative achievement as a totally original film that was just as great as the 80's The Fly.
The more derivative a work is, the less great of an achievement it is compared to a totally original work of the same caliber, because less was actually done in the making of the derivative work.


I just think it is ironic that Coulton takes issue with someone using one of his works that was based on someone elses work. He used someone elses work for his own benefit, and GLEE used Coultons use of someone elses work for their benefit.

I didnt see the GLEE performance, but everything I have seen them perform has been pretty well done, if not very well done, and so I don't think there is reason for him to be offended about it.
I think he just wants money and more fame as a result of his complaint.


If they made fun of his song, then he might have reason to believe his arrangement was slighted, and would have reason to object, to protect his work, but his real objection is probably that they didnt ask or credit him, but then, his work should be well known enough that people would immediately know it as one of his arrangements, right? Oh, wait, not everyone knows his music or who he is, and hence his objection.

 

[devilof76]

Lots of meaningless words.

 

[Shatterer of Dreams]

More like dog with a bone. I'm a musician and it seems insane to me that there would be a lack of creativity doing a cover. Maybe if I was in a cover band then ok, but if an artist has a cover mixed in with a whole career of original music then the statement reeks is ignorence.

Creativity doesn't work in such black and white terms as being laid down here. Inspiration is a powerful thing and taking an existing composition and making it your own is actually very creative. My guess is Blackthornone is not an artist otherwise this argument would not be made.

 

[devilof76]

I'd guess you're right. He's a rationalistic expert on all things high and mighty, and that's about it.

 

[Lejuan]

Composers have no talent. All they're doing is directing someone else's music.

 

[devilof76]

You mean conductors?

 

[Lejuan]

You mean conductors?

Damn, that's it, conductors. I really had to get that right to sound clever. I'll try it again in a few hours and see if it goes down any better.

 

[CelticPredator]

Both Fly films are very different, using the same concept.

 

[devilof76]

Damn, that's it, conductors. I really had to get that right to sound clever. I'll try it again in a few hours and see if it goes down any better.

Might be a good time to rest on your laurels.

 

[Blackthornone]

More like dog with a bone. I'm a musician and it seems insane to me that there would be a lack of creativity doing a cover. Maybe if I was in a cover band then ok, but if an artist has a cover mixed in with a whole career of original music then the statement reeks is ignorence.

Creativity doesn't work in such black and white terms as being laid down here. Inspiration is a powerful thing and taking an existing composition and making it your own is actually very creative. My guess is Blackthornone is not an artist otherwise this argument would not be made.

I said lacking in creativity, not an absence of creativity. If you do not agree that it takes more creativity to come up with a totally original work than it does to cover a previous work, then I really don't know what to say. Sure it takes creativity to make a new arrangement of a great song to make a great song, but not as much as it takes to make a totally original great song.

 

[devilof76]

Having to work within set limits often requires greater creativity than if one were cutting from whole cloth, as it were.

 

[Blackthornone]

Damn, that's it, conductors. I really had to get that right to sound clever. I'll try it again in a few hours and see if it goes down any better.

I don't think that conducting a piece requires as much talent as composing it. Of course, a conductor could alter how the music is being played, but then, he isn't really conducting the same piece anymore, he is actually composing on the fly, which in that case, is a creative achievement.

As far as Coulton's arrangement of Baby Got back, I think it sounds like the Woody Allen version.
It's weak. The original was a loud and raw song about sexual indulgence, wheras Coulton's sounds so laid back it's like he's being very casual about it and doesn't have the same enthusiasm for the subject. It's like the diet low calorie version of the song. The kinder, gentler , pc, watered down version. It isn't as great, or as memorable.

 

[Blackthornone]

Having to work within set limits often requires greater creativity than if one were cutting from whole cloth, as it were.

from Wikipedia:
"Creativity refers to the invention or origination of any new thing (a product, solution, artwork, literary work, joke, etc.) that has value. "New" may refer to the individual creator or the society or domain within which novelty occurs. "Valuable", similarly, may be defined in a variety of ways."

Creating first and foremost, means making something NEW. Therefore, a totally original work is more new than an alteration of an existing work, and thus is more creative.

You are talking about talent.
https://dictionary.reference.com/browse/talent
Talent and creativity are related but are not the same thing.

"tal·ent
/ˈtæl ənt/ Show Spelled [tal-uh nt] Show IPA
noun
1.
a special natural ability or aptitude: a talent for drawing.
2.
a capacity for achievement or success; ability: young men of talent.
3.
a talented person: The cast includes many of the theater's major talents.
"
Coulton used his considerable talent to make something less creative than was before.

 

[devilof76]

Nope. He created something that did not exist previously. Your application of these definitions is pedantic and rationalistic. Thanks for playing.

 

[a-dev]

You don't have to choose. I would bone them all.

4 from the original cast certainly - aforementioned Diana Agron and Lea Michelle, also the ones who play 'Britney' and 'Santana'. And from what I've seen of the current season theres a new one whose rather nice too. I could not be a teacher in that school.

 

[Blackthornone]

Nope. He created something that did not exist previously. Your application of these definitions is pedantic and rationalistic. Thanks for playing.

You don't seem to understand the meaning of the word "new".
An original is more new than a new alteration of an original.
When you use the exact same lyrics of another song in your "own song", it is less new than if you wrote original lyrics, and you reduce the newness of your otherwise "new" song because of it.
The more original something is, the more new it is.

What Coulton did was akin to taking a Hot Toys action figure and then changing it's clothes and then you say HE made the figure. That isn't really true. You might say that's a new figure. I would say it's a Hot Toys custom action figure or a custom using a Hot Toys action figure.
The figure isn't a new figure. Its a new CUSTOMIZATION of an older figure.
Customization of an existing thing isn't really making a new thing, whether it be cars, music, visual art, action figures or whatever.
Coulton customized an existing song to suit his tastes. That doesn't make it an all new song, because it isn't all original.

 

[devilof76]

You don't seem to understand the meaning of create. That's because you learned what it meant from a dictionary.

 

[Blackthornone]

You don't seem to understand the meaning of create. That's because you learned what it meant from a dictionary.

Are you saying that you believe that create has a definition other than what is in the dictionary???
If that is the case, then you aren't really speaking English when you use the word create.
If you don't use the word as it is truly defined, as in, in the dictionary, and I do, obviously we can never agree.

Malkovich!

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6Fuxkinhug[/ame]
Well, ultimately, only God creates, because only God created something, where there was once absolutely nothing. THAT is creation. That is the concept of real creation, whether you believe in God or not. Creation is about making something where there was once nothing. That's creativity. Modification is not creation.

 

[Frank]

The words weren't original but everything original and creative that Coulton contributed to that piece was stolen. Even if they aren't legally liable, it's not something people who claim to be genuine artists do. I don't watch Glee, but for this to be happening so openly means they've stretched the format far beyond what their creative team can handle.